17 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

But what about when the "honest lunge" won't do. What happens when the simple doesn't work? That's the problem with Niman. It doesn't go beyond the simple, and easy to master . That is its weakness.

HEre's another problem with Niman (in particular the talent tree). Niman is supposed to be the foundation form for learning Jar Kai. In other words, it's supposed to be used for learning two weapon fighting. However, the form has no talents whatsoever geared towards making two-weapon fighting more effective.

When the lunge doesn't work, because they parried it, you move to a different attack. Like a low cut, or a high cut. Whatever works and lets you keep up the pressure and move into the next attack. With footwork and using the blade you blend together the attacks to a whole. There is no need for twirly spinny stuff, in fact that stuff is more likely to get you killed.

Ah, now we see the crux of the problem. You want to wield two light sabers and have Jar Kai, but the mean old Niman as designed by FFG won't let you do that in a easy way. It's a style that lets you add successes to attacks though, which is quite possibly one of the strongest abilities in the game since it means you're probably never going to miss. Unless you're fighting against a Shien user who gives you as many fails as you get successes.

10 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

SO what I get is to satisfy Tramp you have to have all lightsaber form trees fully filled out.

Only 5 specific ones then you unlock the Battlemaster Achievement. Or if you max out 2 "complimentary [Niman excluded]" forms you'll get your Junior Battlemaster Achievement. No one could possibly be reasonably tempted by what Niman offers.

Personally, Niman Disciple + Jedi Knight is one of the best "Jedi feel" combos I've come across in the game. Its nice to have all those cool tricks, and would be cool to pick up something like saber swarm, etc, but in terms of "movie Jedi" it does the trick.

19 minutes ago, Vondy said:

Personally, Niman Disciple + Jedi Knight is one of the best "Jedi feel" combos I've come across in the game. Its nice to have all those cool tricks, and would be cool to pick up something like saber swarm, etc, but in terms of "movie Jedi" it does the trick.

I like Padawan+Knight + lightsaber form of your choice. But yeah that one is pretty good.

29 minutes ago, Jedi Ronin said:

Oh, so spending XP to max out 2 Specializations makes you more effective than if you'd only spent XP on one specialization? If you're going to compare 2 maxed out spec trees with each other then Niman has synergy with EVERYTHING. Want a boost to your "real lightsaber" form's core technique? Niman gives you Force Rating along with more Reflect, Parry, Sum Djem, Defensive Stance, Dedication, etc. You're Ataru and you can choose to max out Soresu - yup, some great defensive stuff there - with Niman you pick up fairly comparable defensive stuff (better and worse in some ways Improved Center of Being but no Supreme Parry, Defensive Training but no Defensive Stance, etc) AND you also get Force Rating bump which Ataru wants bady because it makes their Most Powerful Talent In The Game (Saber Swarm) even better because now you can do Linked 2 (and Hawkbat Swoop will be more effective in doing it's thing and powering Saber Swarm). Increased ranks in Force Rating are a big big deal for the Ataru practitioner - and you don't sacrifice much (if any) defensive capability by choosing Niman over Soresu. Ataru's two powerhouse Talents rely on Force Rating and with Niman they get it along with other lightsaber form stuff to not slow them down in their lightsaber combat progression.

In which case, you're not relying upon Niman as your sole form . Mace Windu, Cin Dralleg, etc, may have known and mastered Niman, but it wasn't the only form they knew. They were masters of multiple forms. This is why they survived when none of the dedicated Niman practitioners did. The master of multiple forms is inherently going to be much better than the master of any one form. However, Even among those Jedi who practiced only one of the other five forms, there were survivors . Among dedicated Shii- Cho users, there was at least one survivor , among dedicated Makashi users, there were survivors , among dedicated Soresu users, there were survivors , among dedicated Ataru users, there were survivors , among dedicated Shien users, there were survivors . Among Jedi who practiced only Niman , however, every single one died in that battle, even "masters" of that form. If it was the only lightsaber form they knew, they died .

42 minutes ago, Darth Revenant said:

When the lunge doesn't work, because they parried it, you move to a different attack. Like a low cut, or a high cut. Whatever works and lets you keep up the pressure and move into the next attack. With footwork and using the blade you blend together the attacks to a whole. There is no need for twirly spinny stuff, in fact that stuff is more likely to get you killed.

Ah, now we see the crux of the problem. You want to wield two light sabers and have Jar Kai, but the mean old Niman as designed by FFG won't let you do that in a easy way. It's a style that lets you add successes to attacks though, which is quite possibly one of the strongest abilities in the game since it means you're probably never going to miss. Unless you're fighting against a Shien user who gives you as many fails as you get successes.

Actually, none of my characters use two lightsabers. I actually prefer a single basic lightsaber held with a two-handed grip. Even in video games, I typically stick with just one lightsaber. Sure, two-weapon is fun in KoTOR, but try it in Jedi Academy, and you're likely to kill your allies as easily as your enemies. You have much better control with a single basic lightsaber, thank you very much.

5 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

In which case, you're not relying upon Niman as your sole form . Mace Windu, Cin Dralleg, etc, may have known and mastered Niman, but it wasn't the only form they knew. They were masters of multiple forms. This is why they survived when none of the dedicated Niman practitioners did. The master of multiple forms is inherently going to be much better than the master of any one form. However, Even among those Jedi who practiced only one of the other five forms, there were survivors . Among dedicated Shii- Cho users, there was at least one survivor , among dedicated Makashi users, there were survivors , among dedicated Soresu users, there were survivors , among dedicated Ataru users, there were survivors , among dedicated Shien users, there were survivors . Among Jedi who practiced only Niman , however, every single one died in that battle, even "masters" of that form. If it was the only lightsaber form they knew, they died .

Aaaand we're back to: What does this have to do with FFG Star Wars?

You still haven't confronted the Niman Disciple I described - Lightsaber 5, Willpower 6, Parry, Reflect, Sum Djem, Draw Closer, Dedication, (Improved) Center of Being, Defensive Training - cannot in any honesty be described the way you have: lackluster devotion to blade work, lackluster ability in combat. It can't be done in this system - the world you're describing doesn't exist in this gaming system.

5 minutes ago, Jedi Ronin said:

Aaaand we're back to: What does this have to do with FFG Star Wars?

You still haven't confronted the Niman Disciple I described - Lightsaber 5, Willpower 6, Parry, Reflect, Sum Djem, Draw Closer, Dedication, (Improved) Center of Being, Defensive Training - cannot in any honesty be described the way you have: lackluster devotion to blade work, lackluster ability in combat. It can't be done in this system - the world you're describing doesn't exist in this gaming system.

Probab;y because he would have to admit he is wrong. Not to mention if you have a form tree you are probably more than a basic user. I bet Niman like those we see die in the movies bought a little bit into the Arbiter tree.

12 minutes ago, Jedi Ronin said:

Aaaand we're back to: What does this have to do with FFG Star Wars?

You still haven't confronted the Niman Disciple I described - Lightsaber 5, Willpower 6, Parry, Reflect, Sum Djem, Draw Closer, Dedication, (Improved) Center of Being, Defensive Training - cannot in any honesty be described the way you have: lackluster devotion to blade work, lackluster ability in combat. It can't be done in this system - the world you're describing doesn't exist in this gaming system.

The question is "Lackluster" compared to what? Put that guy up against a Soresu Defender with Intellect 6, Lightsaber 5, Soresu Technique, Parry, Reflect, Improved Parry, Improved Reflect, Supreme Parry, Defensive Circle, Defensive Stance, Strategic Form. The Soresu Defender will mop the floor with the Niman master. You put a master of Niman against a master of any of the other five forms, all else being equal , and the Niman user will lose.

14 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

The question is "Lackluster" compared to what? Put that guy up against a Soresu Defender with Intellect 6, Lightsaber 5, Soresu Technique, Parry, Reflect, Improved Parry, Improved Reflect, Supreme Parry, Defensive Circle, Defensive Stance, Strategic Form. The Soresu Defender will mop the floor with the Niman master. You put a master of Niman against a master of any of the other five forms, all else being equal , and the Niman user will lose.

Do you RPG? Seriously, you've been claiming for pages that the "Geonosis Scenario" has all sorts of meaning and that Niman was not up to the task and I've described a PC that would do great in that scenario and not be lackluster at all (especially compared to Shii-cho and Makashi who'd drop).

So now you're abandoning that scenario for a new one - Master's facing off against each other...and now its Niman will be destroyed by Soresu of same XP? Do you RPG? This fight will mostly come down to dice rolls. Niman has an edge on offense and Soresu on defense - winner decided not by inherent strengths and weaknesses but die rolls (most likely who goes first, so if it's Vigilance the Soresu practitioner is at a big disadvantage).

As for other FFG head-to-head comparisons: I Niman has an edge on Shien (still down to random chance of die rolls), Makashi has a good chance at being the best (this scenario being the reason for it's existance), with Ataru also having a good shot at being the best (could very well kill you in one round), Niman and Shii-cho comes down to die rolls as well, etc. It's almost like the game was developed striving for balance among the options.

Also, this is very rich coming from you. The last time this specific topic came up Elias challenged you to a PC face off pitting Niman against Soresu and you totally refused, no confidence at all in your "mop the floor with Niman master" assertion. [BTW, Elias and I played around with a Niman v Soresu PC face off and it came down to....die rolls! Initiative! Choices in resource/strain management!]

3 minutes ago, Jedi Ronin said:

Do you RPG? Seriously, you've been claiming for pages that the "Geonosis Scenario" has all sorts of meaning and that Niman was not up to the task and I've described a PC that would do great in that scenario and not be lackluster at all (especially compared to Shii-cho and Makashi who'd drop).

So now you're abandoning that scenario for a new one - Master's facing off against each other...and now its Niman will be destroyed by Soresu of same XP? Do you RPG? This fight will mostly come down to dice rolls. Niman has an edge on offense and Soresu on defense - winner decided not by inherent strengths and weaknesses but die rolls (most likely who goes first, so if it's Vigilance the Soresu practitioner is at a big disadvantage).

As for other FFG head-to-head comparisons: I Niman has an edge on Shien (still down to random chance of die rolls), Makashi has a good chance at being the best (this scenario being the reason for it's existance), with Ataru also having a good shot at being the best (could very well kill you in one round), Niman and Shii-cho comes down to die rolls as well, etc. It's almost like the game was developed striving for balance among the options.

Also, this is very rich coming from you. The last time this specific topic came up Elias challenged you to a PC face off pitting Niman against Soresu and you totally refused, no confidence at all in your "mop the floor with Niman master" assertion. [BTW, Elias and I played around with a Niman v Soresu PC face off and it came down to....die rolls! Initiative! Choices in resource/strain management!]

I've been role-playing for over thirty five years . I started back when I was in seventh grade . I'm 49 now.

Just now, Tramp Graphics said:

I've been role-playing for over thirty five years . I started back when I was in seventh grade . I'm 49 now.

You didn't really address anything I said.

3 minutes ago, Jedi Ronin said:

You didn't really address anything I said.

You asked. 😝

In all seriousness. I don't think that your Niman user would survive, no; especially if Niman was his only form. Against a handful of thugs? Sure. Against a battle-hardened force of well-trained sodiers ? No. Against master of another lightsaber form? No. I do not believe Niman alone is sufficient to survive such an encounter.

1 minute ago, Tramp Graphics said:

You asked. 😝

In all seriousness. I don't think that your Niman user would survive, no; especially if Niman was his only form. Against a handful of thugs? Sure. Against a battle-hardened force of well-trained sodiers ? No. Against master of another lightsaber form? No. I do not believe Niman alone is sufficient to survive such an encounter.

But why do you think that? What about Niman vs Soresu doesn't come down to a die rolls or player decisions during an encounter? It's totally non-obvious why'd you claim Soresu would mop the floor with Niman.

41 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

The question is "Lackluster" compared to what? Put that guy up against a Soresu Defender with Intellect 6, Lightsaber 5, Soresu Technique, Parry, Reflect, Improved Parry, Improved Reflect, Supreme Parry, Defensive Circle, Defensive Stance, Strategic Form. The Soresu Defender will mop the floor with the Niman master. You put a master of Niman against a master of any of the other five forms, all else being equal , and the Niman user will lose.

And you have empirically confirmed play test data that verifies this theory? Not just fuzzy head-math and intuitions, but brass tacks real world experience from repeated real world play scenarios? If not, then the impressive certitude with which you state your claim is just bluster and the entire discussion is just spitting into the wind.

Intellect 6 and Lightsaber 5 isn't any better than Willpower 6 and Lightsaber 5.

Soresu Technique and Niman Technique do the exact same thing for different stats.

Reflect talents are irrelevant in a one-on-one lightsaber duel. He's not shooting at you.

Defensive Circle is irrelevant in a one-on-one lightsaber duel. He isn't attacking your allies .

Strategic Form is irrelevant in a one-on-one lightsaber duel. He wants to attack you.

Defensive Stance is somewhat better than Defensive Training dice-wise but requires you to burn strain .

Supreme Parry only saves strain when you didn't attack the previous round. You skip attacks and sip tea?

The Soresu Defender does not have Draw Closer or Force Assault for extra successes or second chances.

The Soresu Defender will most likely be a Force Rating behind the Niman Disciple.

What the Niman Disciple isn't as good at is defending other people ... which doesn't matter in a duel.

1 minute ago, Jedi Ronin said:

But why do you think that? What about Niman vs Soresu doesn't come down to a die rolls or player decisions during an encounter? It's totally non-obvious why'd you claim Soresu would mop the floor with Niman.

Soresu is the best form for defense. A true Soresu master has a virtually impenetrable defense. Sooner or later, the Niman user will wear out, and then the Soresu master has him. Ataru is the ultimate offense . A true Ataru master will smash through a Niman user's defenses. Only Soresu has a strong enough defense to potentially stop Ataru's offense, and only Ataru has a strong enough offense to potentially break through Soresu's defense.

1 minute ago, Vondy said:

And you have empirically confirmed play test data that verifies this theory? Not just fuzzy head-math and intuitions, but brass tacks real world experience from repeated real world play experience? If not, then the impressive certitude with which you state your claim is just bluster and the entire discussion is just spitting into the wind.

Intellect 6 and Lightsaber 5 isn't any better than Willpower 6 and Lightsaber 5.

Soresu Technique and Niman Technique do the exact same thing for different stats.

Reflect talents are irrelevant in a one-on-one lightsaber duel. He's not shooting at you.

Defensive Circle is irrelevant in a one-on-one lightsaber duel. He isn't attacking your allies .

Strategic Form is irrelevant in a one-on-one lightsaber duel. He wants to attack you.

Defensive Stance is somewhat better than Defensive Training dice-wise but requires you to burn strain .

Supreme Parry only saves strain when you didn't attack the previous round. You skip attacks?

You do not have Draw Closer or Force Assault for extra successes or second chances.

The Soresu Defender will most likely be a Force Rating behind the Niman Disciple.

What the Niman Disciple isn't as good at is defending other people ... which doesn't matter in a duel.

Soresu also has more ranks of Parry than Niman. Soresu has four ranks of Parry , Niman only has three . Only Makashi has more ranks of Parry than Soresu. That means that the Soresu Defender can stop more damage than the Niman Disciple . Soresu also has Improved Parry, Niman does not. That means that the Soresu Defender can potentially turn the Niman Disciple's attacks back upon him . The Niman user can't. The Soresu user also has Defensive Stance , which upgrades the difficulty of the Niman user's attacks, making it harder for him to hit the Soresu user. Add to that Defensive Circle , which adds X number of Defense to the Soresu, making it even more difficult for the Niman user to land an attack against him. The Soresu Defender doesn't need to make an actual attack to win. His defenses alone will win the day.

1 hour ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Soresu is the best form for defense. A true Soresu master has a virtually impenetrable defense. Sooner or later, the Niman user will wear out, and then the Soresu master has him. Ataru is the ultimate offense . A true Ataru master will smash through a Niman user's defenses. Only Soresu has a strong enough defense to potentially stop Ataru's offense, and only Ataru has a strong enough offense to potentially break through Soresu's defense.

Soresu also has more ranks of Parry than Niman. Soresu has four ranks of Parry , Niman only has three . Only Makashi has more ranks of Parry than Soresu. That means that the Soresu Defender can stop more damage than the Niman Disciple . Soresu also has Improved Parry, Niman does not. That means that the Soresu Defender can potentially turn the Niman Disciple's attacks back upon him . The Niman user can't. The Soresu user also has Defensive Stance , which upgrades the difficulty of the Niman user's attacks, making it harder for him to hit the Soresu user. Add to that Defensive Circle , which adds X number of Defense to the Soresu, making it even more difficult for the Niman user to land an attack against him. The Soresu Defender doesn't need to make an actual attack to win. His defenses alone will win the day.

And a Niman user when he misses can toss the Soresu User to extreme range and watch him go splat.

A Niman user gets automatic successes on a hit with draw closer which when combined with another talent can render it impossible for the Soresu user to attack. (Sum Djem)...

A Niman user can disarm a Soresu user and its really not going to be hard...

There a point here?

Ataru doesn't have a strong enough offense to break through Soresu in FFG its got no mechanical offensive bonus to use for that purpose.

Ataru usually loses for the same reason it loses in the movies the user exhausts themselves from excessive strain.

I seriously don't think you understand how combat works in ffg, because Niman has a serious and overwhelming offensive advantage over Soresu in a fight cause I'm really questioning how a Soresu user parries once he gets disarmed which will happen with the first attack of a Niman user who has Sum Djem.

I rewatched aotc. Danva didn't die on screen

http://web.archive.org/web/20050402064132/http://www.starwars.com/community/askjc/jocasta/askjc20020903.html

Lists him as a survivor of the genosis arena battle

http://web.archive.org/web/20100227232547/http://blogs.starwars.com/holocron/10

This lists him as possibly killed during gunship arrival.

It's unclear whether danva actually died/survived the arena battle.

2 hours ago, Tramp Graphics said:

You asked. 😝

In all seriousness. I don't think that your Niman user would survive, no; especially if Niman was his only form. Against a handful of thugs? Sure. Against a battle-hardened force of well-trained sodiers ? No. Against master of another lightsaber form? No. I do not believe Niman alone is sufficient to survive such an encounter.

I have killed Ataru, Shien, Soresu, Makashi and Vapaad users with a Niman character. It wasn't hard. It wasn't even particularly difficult and to clarify the only combat related spec I had was Niman my other specs were Consular and Healer.

Didn't even take a single point of damage, because they never hit me once.

1 hour ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Soresu is the best form for defense. A true Soresu master has a virtually impenetrable defense. Sooner or later, the Niman user will wear out, and then the Soresu master has him. Ataru is the ultimate offense . A true Ataru master will smash through a Niman user's defenses. Only Soresu has a strong enough defense to potentially stop Ataru's offense, and only Ataru has a strong enough offense to potentially break through Soresu's defense.

Soresu also has more ranks of Parry than Niman. Soresu has four ranks of Parry , Niman only has three . Only Makashi has more ranks of Parry than Soresu. That means that the Soresu Defender can stop more damage than the Niman Disciple . Soresu also has Improved Parry, Niman does not. That means that the Soresu Defender can potentially turn the Niman Disciple's attacks back upon him . The Niman user can't. The Soresu user also has Defensive Stance , which upgrades the difficulty of the Niman user's attacks, making it harder for him to hit the Soresu user. Add to that Defensive Circle , which adds X number of Defense to the Soresu, making it even more difficult for the Niman user to land an attack against him. The Soresu Defender doesn't need to make an actual attack to win. His defenses alone will win the day.

Niman disciple has 2 ranks of defensive training which is more potent than defensive stance and takes no strain or maneuver to utilize. In a round where the soresu defender has used defensive stance, don't attack and simply stay out of range, if they stop using defensive stance, then attack. Niman-disciple beats soresu on strain and action economy that powers defense. And you can always drop a speeder on the soresu defender.

4 hours ago, Tramp Graphics said:

That's exactly what I'm saying. The true masters of the blade were the Battlemasters . They devoted their entire existence to weapon training, mastering all of the lightsaber forms, and often other combat techniques as well.

No. What I'm saying is to devote the time and energy into mastering all of the other five forms. In other words, Maxing out all five trees as well as maxing out skill ranks in lightsaber . And, even then, you don't need to master all of the forms. But mastering two complimentary forms (such as Ataru paired with Soresu ) will go a lot farther than Niman ever will. The Ultimate offensive form paired with the ultimate defensive form. Master both forms, and you're likely to be almost unbeatable.

But what about when the "honest lunge" won't do. What happens when the simple doesn't work? That's the problem with Niman. It doesn't go beyond the simple, and easy to master . That is its weakness.

HEre's another problem with Niman (in particular the talent tree). Niman is supposed to be the foundation form for learning Jar Kai. In other words, it's supposed to be used for learning two weapon fighting. However, the form has no talents whatsoever geared towards making two-weapon fighting more effective.

Jedi: Knight/niman-disciple with peerless interception is a far stronger build than soresu defender + ataru striker. Peerless interception is the counter to saber swarm, and a far stronger defense than the entire soresu tree

2 hours ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Soresu is the best form for defense. A true Soresu master has a virtually impenetrable defense. Sooner or later, the Niman user will wear out, and then the Soresu master has him. Ataru is the ultimate offense . A true Ataru master will smash through a Niman user's defenses. Only Soresu has a strong enough defense to potentially stop Ataru's offense, and only Ataru has a strong enough offense to potentially break through Soresu's defense.

Once again you’re retreating to your philosophical musings and avoid the mechanics discussion I’ve put before you.
Your statement doesn’t hold true or is meaningless in FFG Star Wars. Your head is in the clouds of not even game theory but setting lore theory. Your statements simply aren’t true in this game. Likely Ataru gets past the defenses of both Niman and Soresu. Mathematically/mechanically Soresu and Niman are nearly identical (it comes down to a dice roll and not the fluff about which form is supposedly the ultimate whatever).
And mathematically Niman and Soresu are very likely to get past each other’s defenses especially with the stats we’ve stated (this game favors offense over defense).
Oh, and Sum Djem means the Niman needs success and 2 advantage on one attack to disarm and possess the Soresu’s lightsaber. Duel over.

Anyone feel like crunching numbers to see what can survive a Juyo/Ataru with Unmatched Ferocity?

Asking for...a friend. 😁

7 hours ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Actually, none of my characters use two lightsabers. I actually prefer a single basic lightsaber held with a two-handed grip. Even in video games, I typically stick with just one lightsaber. Sure, two-weapon is fun in KoTOR, but try it in Jedi Academy, and you're likely to kill your allies as easily as your enemies. You have much better control with a single basic lightsaber, thank you very much.

Then why this dogged and rabid hatred of all things Niman? Surely there must be something this vile form has done to you to make you hate it with such a burning passion.

10 hours ago, Tramp Graphics said:

No. What I'm saying is to devote the time and energy into mastering all of the other five forms. In other words, Maxing out all five trees as well as maxing out skill ranks in lightsaber . And, even then, you don't need to master all of the forms. But mastering two complimentary forms (such as Ataru paired with Soresu ) will go a lot farther than Niman ever will. The Ultimate offensive form paired with the ultimate defensive form. Master both forms, and you're likely to be almost unbeatable.

First of all, I might have to chisel the word "sarcasm" into a brick an throw it at you to subtly hint what tone I'm addressing you in, because I'm at my wit's end on how else to stop you from embarrassing yourself.

Secondly, with this argument you've moved the goalpoasts so far that I'm not sure how to convey how dishonest your argument has become.

Oh well, when in Rome...

TRAMP GRAPHICS IS A LYING LIAR THAT LIES.

I'm sorry if that's too subtle for you.