8 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Yes, he died while attempting to escape. Why is that? Other Jedi using other forms survived while attempting to escape, and made it off the battlefield. Could it be that the limitations inherent in NIman didn't give him the tools he needed to be good enough to deflect the shot ( s ) that killed him?

Seriously, that's what you're going with? He was good enough to deflect all the blaster shots that came his way throughout the arena but wasn't good enough to deflect a shot while boarding a laat? That's your argument?

And you're not making this argument against makashi which is canonically the worst form at blaster reflection?

That's what you're going with?

It sounds very much more like a loss of focus at a critical moment after believing he was safe.

3 minutes ago, EliasWindrider said:

Seriously, that's what you're going with? He was good enough to deflect all the blaster shots that came his way throughout the arena but wasn't good enough to deflect a shot while boarding a laat? That's your argument?

And you're not making this argument against makashi which is canonically the worst form at blaster reflection?

That's what you're going with?

It sounds very much more like a loss of focus at a critical moment after believing he was safe.

A loss of focus? I doubt it. If there's one thing combat does, is force you to focus.

1 hour ago, Tramp Graphics said:

A loss of focus? I doubt it. If there's one thing combat does, is force you to focus.

Because you're dead when you don't, which happened, and believing himself safe does explain a momentary loss of focus

Here's the thing jedi weren't trained fight wars, they were trained for skirmishes, which makes a momentary loss of focus after believing himself safe highly plausible.

And this is while you aren't making the same not good at deflecting blaster bolts argument about makashi which is canonically the worst form against blaster.

At least try to be logically consistent.

3 hours ago, Tramp Graphics said:

They have a constant travel time regardless of distance, yes, at least they appear to . In fact, specifically, their speed is a constant number of pixels per second across the screen rather than a constant number of meters per second within any given scene. However, Adam Savage came up with an average speed of 130-135 MPH across all six movies. While dodging "Blaster bolts" proved basically impossible, they did bring in someone who was able to deflect them with a "lightsaber".

Wow.

Human communication really is a mystery to you, isn't it?

47 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Mace Windu is a master of all six forms, as was Cin Drelig. And created Vapaad.

Clearly Drallig's master of all, grandmaster of none approach is what got him killed.

1 hour ago, penpenpen said:

Wow.

Human communication really is a mystery to you, isn't it?

Clearly Drallig's master of all, grandmaster of none approach is what got him killed.

You're saying that as a joke, but it's more true than you realize, and it's bit Michael Trampert in the *** more than once.

5 hours ago, Tramp Graphics said:

No, my argument is that the problem with Niman is not that the users aren't putting in the effort. The problem, as the Jedi Battlemasters in Path of the Jedi say, the Form itself isn't demanding enough to make practitioners really very good no matter what. It's easy to master the techniques, and, because of that, those techniques themselves aren't that effective. There's not much to them . They're mediocre at best, and only good for dealing with relatively untrained opponents .

The more difficult a skill set is to master, nine times out of ten, that skill set is going to inherently be much more effective than a skill set that is very easy to master. Difficulty in mastery equals effectiveness in application once mastered. So, if something is easy to master, its effectiveness in application inherently won't be nearly as good something which requires much greater effort. Niman requires very little effort to master its techniques. Sure, a practitioner could spend every waking moment mastering those techniques, but, It doesn't take that long to do . and didn't require all that much effort to begin with.Then what? Sure, you could keep on practicing them, but there's only so much you can get out of those techniques because there is an inherent limit to them. Effort required ultimately equals the reward earned. And that reward is its effectiveness in practical use. So, the problem isn't that the practitioners aren't putting in the effort, it's that there is a limit to how much effort can be put into it in the first place and still expect to improve. There is a limit to how much practice you can put into it before you don't get any more real benefit from said practice.

That's Bantha Poodoo. A technique isn't better just because it's harder to do, simplicity has its own virtues. Just because something is hard to do doesn't mean it's going to be better than something that's easy. One of the Jedi you linked to earlier, Joclad Danva, was one of the greatest duelists in the Jedi order while using Niman. Meaning he's one of the greatest duelists in a order that has both Dooku and Windu in it while he's rising to fame, so he trains against and with some of the greatest blademasters of the order and his fights were considered some of the high lights of duel training and used for teaching. Seems like it wasn't that lacking after all.

12 hours ago, Tramp Graphics said:

The game designers gave him Niman because of his high Willpower (reflecting his high wisdom).

Huh. You'd think wisdom would be reflected by a stat like Intellect or something.

Snark aside, your core argument is flawed by assuming that every character or form depiction is an equally balanced blank slate, wherein the sole deciding factor in any conflict is the forms being utilized. This is plainly false, and a gross oversimplification. It's like saying every fight in DBZ is decided simply by calculating the power levels of every combatant.

Furthermore, your arguments are becoming more and more ludicrous to the point of requiring mastery of Ataru and Force Enhance just to navigate the bizarre turns and leaps of logic. The harder you argue, the more you lose us.

It reminds me of this New Yorker comic:

https://images.app.goo.gl/gon6nMNHc3CLP3qK7

16 hours ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Everything. Niman Disciple devotes slots to Force Rating and to Force techniques that deal with telekinesis, rather than lightsaber combat. While this fits with the lore, it takes slots away from talents like Parry or Reflect (or their improved or Supreme versions), or other lightsaber combat focused talents. It also includes talents geared more towards Social encounters, not combat . It sacrifices talents that could make the user more effective in combat with the lightsaber for power in the Force and for effectiveness in diplomacy. Think about it, what do the talents Nobody's Fool and Sense Emotions , have to do with a lightsaber battle ? All other forms are devoted to lightsaber combat exclusively . and all of the talents in those forms apply to that focus one way or another. Niman Disciple has fewer Lightsaber focused talents than any other form, and includes several talents which have nothing at all to do with lightsaber combat. That is how it has to do with FFG star Wars.

That's not correct. Makashi is the only Form in the core that has no Talents related to lightsaber combat (and it has no Reflect which is a much much bigger detriment in lightsaber combat effectiveness than Niman's 2 non-related Talents). The other forms have Talents that are not devoted to lightsaber combat exclusively (and Niman's Force bump and telekenesis Talents are directly related to lightsaber combat - remember when you said you wouldn't conflate lightsaber combat with blade work? - you're doing it again; Draw Closer adds success to your Lightsaber check and can narratively be described as blade work). By your standards then all of Soresu's Grit and Toughness Talents aren't related to lightsaber combat.

As for Talents that have nothing to do with lightsaber combat - Soresu has Confidence; Ataru has Conditioned (twice), Jump Up; Shien has Conditioned and Street Smarts, Shii-cho has Conditioned. Niman has Nobody's Fool and Sense Emotions. In other words Niman is the same as most of them with up to 2 Talents not directly related to lightsaber combat but a secondary focus. 2 minor Talents in a Tree (for 5 and 15 XP)does not make or break it the way you are describing.

You still haven't confronted the Niman Disciple I described - Lightsaber 5, Willpower 6, Parry, Reflect, Sum Djem, Draw Closer, Dedication, (Improved) Center of Being, Defensive Training - cannot in any honesty be described the way you have: lackluster devotion to blade work, lackluster ability in combat. It can't be done in this system - the world you're describing doesn't exist in this gaming system.

As a factual quantified matter your above statements are false.

EDIT

Just looked up Juyo Berserker. Talents that have nothing to do at all with lightsaber combat: Intimidating (5XP, 20XP), Inner Peace (10XP, 20XP). Inner Peace manipulates the Destiny Pool and reduces Conflict gained for the session. Zero relation to lightsaber combat. Juyo has a Talent (twice in tree) related to lightsaber combat that gains lots of Conflict and Inner Peace as a separate event (Active Incidental) can reduce that or any other Conflict gained so one can see why they added it to the tree (it also fits the spiritual side of this form) but the Talent itself has absolutely nothing to do with lightsaber combat.

That's 4 Talents - 2 of them 4th tier - for a total of 55XP not devoted to lightsaber combat.

There are two aspects to mastering the lightsaber ( or any other form) in this game. Taking the specialization and its upgrades, and the basic skill such as lightsaber. Any jedi who gets all of the upgrades on a tree may have many things they can do... but may still suck at combat if they did put any effort into the base skill.

17 hours ago, EliasWindrider said:

Because you're dead when you don't, which happened, and believing himself safe does explain a momentary loss of focus

Here's the thing jedi weren't trained fight wars, they were trained for skirmishes, which makes a momentary loss of focus after believing himself safe highly plausible.

And this is while you aren't making the same not good at deflecting blaster bolts argument about makashi which is canonically the worst form against blaster.

At least try to be logically consistent.

That's not what I mean. Combat forces you to focus because the stresses involve boost adrenaline levels. Adrenaline brings all of your senses into high alert . That rush of adrenaline automatically forces you into a hightened state of awaremess. You can't help but become more focused in the heat of battle. That's what I'm talking about.

17 hours ago, penpenpen said:

Wow.

Human communication really is a mystery to you, isn't it?

Clearly Drallig's master of all, grandmaster of none approach is what got him killed.

Cin Drallig survived through the Clone Wars, and was only killed during the sacking of the Jedi Temple during Order 66 by a full strength, undamaged Darth Vader .

12 hours ago, Darth Revenant said:

That's Bantha Poodoo. A technique isn't better just because it's harder to do, simplicity has its own virtues. Just because something is hard to do doesn't mean it's going to be better than something that's easy. One of the Jedi you linked to earlier, Joclad Danva, was one of the greatest duelists in the Jedi order while using Niman. Meaning he's one of the greatest duelists in a order that has both Dooku and Windu in it while he's rising to fame, so he trains against and with some of the greatest blademasters of the order and his fights were considered some of the high lights of duel training and used for teaching. Seems like it wasn't that lacking after all.

Simplicity also has its limitations . Also, Joclad Danva didn't just use Niman. He was also a master of Teras Kasi . In game terms, he was a Steel Hand Adept . He didn't rely on Form VI. It should also be noted that the "Niman techniques" Danva was more practiced in, (and which he was a master of) was dual-wielding . In other words, Jar Kai, for which Niman is typically used as a foundation in learning.

4 hours ago, Jedi Ronin said:

That's not correct. Makashi is the only Form in the core that has no Talents related to lightsaber combat (and it has no Reflect which is a much much bigger detriment in lightsaber combat effectiveness than Niman's 2 non-related Talents). The other forms have Talents that are not devoted to lightsaber combat exclusively (and Niman's Force bump and telekenesis Talents are directly related to lightsaber combat - remember when you said you wouldn't conflate lightsaber combat with blade work? - you're doing it again; Draw Closer adds success to your Lightsaber check and can narratively be described as blade work). By your standards then all of Soresu's Grit and Toughness Talents aren't related to lightsaber combat.

As for Talents that have nothing to do with lightsaber combat - Soresu has Confidence; Ataru has Conditioned (twice), Jump Up; Shien has Conditioned and Street Smarts, Shii-cho has Conditioned. Niman has Nobody's Fool and Sense Emotions. In other words Niman is the same as most of them with up to 2 Talents not directly related to lightsaber combat but a secondary focus. 2 minor Talents in a Tree (for 5 and 15 XP)does not make or break it the way you are describing.

You still haven't confronted the Niman Disciple I described - Lightsaber 5, Willpower 6, Parry, Reflect, Sum Djem, Draw Closer, Dedication, (Improved) Center of Being, Defensive Training - cannot in any honesty be described the way you have: lackluster devotion to blade work, lackluster ability in combat. It can't be done in this system - the world you're describing doesn't exist in this gaming system.

As a factual quantified matter your above statements are false.

EDIT

Just looked up Juyo Berserker. Talents that have nothing to do at all with lightsaber combat: Intimidating (5XP, 20XP), Inner Peace (10XP, 20XP). Inner Peace manipulates the Destiny Pool and reduces Conflict gained for the session. Zero relation to lightsaber combat. Juyo has a Talent (twice in tree) related to lightsaber combat that gains lots of Conflict and Inner Peace as a separate event (Active Incidental) can reduce that or any other Conflict gained so one can see why they added it to the tree (it also fits the spiritual side of this form) but the Talent itself has absolutely nothing to do with lightsaber combat.

That's 4 Talents - 2 of them 4th tier - for a total of 55XP not devoted to lightsaber combat.

Makashi may not have Reflect, but it does have Parry . In fact, it has the most ranks of Parry of any lightsaber form ( five ranks total). Soresu only has four ranks, and Shien only has two . And I think you mean that Makashi is the only lightsaber spec which has no talents not being lightsaber related talents (except Dedication).

Also, Conditioned , and Confidence , Jump Up , all three of these have a direct impact on lightsaber combat, even though they don't specifically utilize the lightsaber directly. The same with Dodge , Balance , Toughened and Grit , which enhance a character's survivability . Confidence helps keep you from giving into fear when facing an opponent during combat. Conditioned helps you maintain coordination and balance during combat, particularly useful when your combat style makes heavy use of acrobatics . Jump Up , allows you to get back to your feet quickly after being knocked down, so that you don't get skewered. That has a direct application in lightsaber combat. And, as you brought up, Inner Peace applies directly to the other specific Lightsaber talents in Juyo in order to counter their negative effects . As such, it applies directly to combat. Of all of the talents you mentioned above, only Street Smarts has no real application in lightsaaber combat. All of those other talents, have a direct application in lightsaber combat, even if they don't use the lightsaber itself.

3 hours ago, Lostintheforce said:

There are two aspects to mastering the lightsaber ( or any other form) in this game. Taking the specialization and its upgrades, and the basic skill such as lightsaber. Any jedi who gets all of the upgrades on a tree may have many things they can do... but may still suck at combat if they did put any effort into the base skill.

I don't argue that fact. However, skill level being equal ( Say two individuals with their primary stat for their chosen form a 6, and Lightsaber 5), having more talents directly applying to the weapon , as opposed to completely unrelated uses, or which act as a crutch in lieu of weapon mastery (such as using telekinesis), makes the better the warrior with that chosen weapon .

That is why I say, if you want your character to be a master of the lightsaber, focus on mastering the other five lightsaber forms.

12 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Cin Drallig survived through the Clone Wars, and was only killed during the sacking of the Jedi Temple during Order 66 by a full strength, undamaged Darth Vader .

I think I might have to start hoisting a flag when subjecting you to sarcasm in the future. Or would you prefer a signal flare?

Either way, you get to pick whichever color you like!*

*There is no actual flag. Or flare.

1 hour ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Makashi may not have Reflect, but it does have Parry . In fact, it has the most ranks of Parry of any lightsaber form ( five ranks total). Soresu only has four ranks, and Shien only has two . And I think you mean that Makashi is the only lightsaber spec which has no talents not being lightsaber related talents (except Dedication).

Also, Conditioned , and Confidence , Jump Up , all three of these have a direct impact on lightsaber combat, even though they don't specifically utilize the lightsaber directly. The same with Dodge , Balance , Toughened and Grit , which enhance a character's survivability . Confidence helps keep you from giving into fear when facing an opponent during combat. Conditioned helps you maintain coordination and balance during combat, particularly useful when your combat style makes heavy use of acrobatics . Jump Up , allows you to get back to your feet quickly after being knocked down, so that you don't get skewered. That has a direct application in lightsaber combat. And, as you brought up, Inner Peace applies directly to the other specific Lightsaber talents in Juyo in order to counter their negative effects . As such, it applies directly to combat. Of all of the talents you mentioned above, only Street Smarts has no real application in lightsaaber combat. All of those other talents, have a direct application in lightsaber combat, even if they don't use the lightsaber itself.

Ha ha ha Tramp. This response is you spinning your wheels and moving goal posts to justify your position. Truly, this is intellectually dishonest of you - you go on for pages about "blade work" and now all of a sudden all sorts of things that have nothing to do with "blade work" are now Lightsaber Combat Talents. I'm so glad you've totally abandoned your "blade work" obsession.

By your new logic then Force Rating is also a Talent which directly affects lightsaber combat (according to your new standard - hey it directly adds Success to a Lighsaber check as well as for maneuvering which you've just said counts as a combat talent for other forms ). Enhancing survivability? You mean like social skills to stop the fight? It's a good think Niman has lightsaber combat Talents like Nobody's Fool and Sense Emotions (for a whopping 20XP) to stop the fight or reduce the number of combatants by using Coercion or Charm or Deception (something Musashi legendarily used). I love these new standards! So, according to your own standards ALL of Niman Disciple have DIRECT APPLICATION in lightsaber combat.

And yes, again you don't directly respond to things I've said while appearing to - Makashi not having Reflect is a big detriment in lightsaber combat the majority of which will use it.

And (again!) you dodged my core assertion:

You still haven't confronted the Niman Disciple I described - Lightsaber 5, Willpower 6, Parry, Reflect, Sum Djem, Draw Closer, Dedication, (Improved) Center of Being, Defensive Training - cannot in any honesty be described the way you have: lackluster devotion to blade work, lackluster ability in combat. It can't be done in this system - the world you're describing doesn't exist in this gaming system.

26 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

That is why I say, if you want your character to be a master of the lightsaber, focus on mastering the other five lightsaber forms.

This is ridiculous. So what the Jedi Order at it's height only had 2 masters of the lightsaber? Maybe 3? If that's your standard fine, but it's rendering the rest of this argument ridiculous (which has wandered from blade work to then combat effectiveness then to lightsaber combat then to anything tangentially playing a role in a combat to now master 5 forms).

4 minutes ago, Jedi Ronin said:

This is ridiculous. So what the Jedi Order at it's height only had 2 masters of the lightsaber? Maybe 3? If that's your standard fine, but it's rendering the rest of this argument ridiculous (which has wandered from blade work to then combat effectiveness then to lightsaber combat then to anything tangentially playing a role in a combat to now master 5 forms).

Well, you see Niiman is weak because it's a jack of all trades. The trick is to study all other forms and become a jack of 5/6 trades!

I know, this revelation might give you a headache, perhaps even nausea, dizziness or temporary memory loss, but thats just means the logic is working.

9 minutes ago, penpenpen said:

Well, you see Niiman is weak because it's a jack of all trades. The trick is to study all other forms and become a jack of 5/6 trades!

I know, this revelation might give you a headache, perhaps even nausea, dizziness or temporary memory loss, but thats just means the logic is working.

I think we're getting down the the heart of things here: Niman can't replicate 5 other forms so it's lackluster and ineffective. In game terms? No, but in his head.

5 minutes ago, Jedi Ronin said:

I think we're getting down the the heart of things here: Niman can't replicate 5 other forms so it's lackluster and ineffective. In game terms? No, but in his head.

If you want get into TG's head, you're on your own. I might be stupid, but I'm not brave.

4 minutes ago, penpenpen said:

If you want get into TG's head, you're on your own. I might be stupid, but I'm not brave.

I'm stupid and stubborn enough it might seem like bravery.

57 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Simplicity also has its limitations . Also, Joclad Danva didn't just use Niman. He was also a master of Teras Kasi . In game terms, he was a Steel Hand Adept . He didn't rely on Form VI. It should also be noted that the "Niman techniques" Danva was more practiced in, (and which he was a master of) was dual-wielding . In other words, Jar Kai, for which Niman is typically used as a foundation in learning.

I know what Teras Käsi is, you don't have to bold stuff. I know I'm shouting into the wind, but it comes off as derisive and rude and makes people less willing to see your point. Wind shouting done.

You build on the simple things and weave them together. If a honest lunge will do it then there is no need for any excessive flair, feints should all be attacks that are meant to hit and movements shouldn't be wasted, when you move your opponent should have to move as much or more, or die. Wasted movements are a waste of energy, needlessly complex stuff that accomplices the same things as the basic ones are a waste.

As for Joclad, you're the one who brought him up as an example. He knew more than one type of fighting, it seems like most Jedi did. Obi-Wan knew both Ataru and Soresu, not to mention probably Shii-Cho as a foundation of those other two. Same goes with Anakin except exchange Soresu for Shien, hel he seems to have had a grounding in Niman as well since he went with dual wielding at times. Joclad was still, according to the link you posted first, a master of Niman. He was hailed as one of the greatest duelists with lightsabers in the order. Not as the greatest hand to hand combatant, lightsabers. Which, when you use two of them, is using a style of Niman.

But this is clearly not about forms or game benefits. Show us here on the baby Yoda where the dreadful Niman style touched you.

6 minutes ago, Darth Revenant said:

I know what Teras Käsi is, you don't have to bold stuff. I know I'm shouting into the wind, but it comes off as derisive and rude and makes people less willing to see your point. Wind shouting done.

You build on the simple things and weave them together. If a honest lunge will do it then there is no need for any excessive flair, feints should all be attacks that are meant to hit and movements shouldn't be wasted, when you move your opponent should have to move as much or more, or die. Wasted movements are a waste of energy, needlessly complex stuff that accomplices the same things as the basic ones are a waste.

As for Joclad, you're the one who brought him up as an example. He knew more than one type of fighting, it seems like most Jedi did. Obi-Wan knew both Ataru and Soresu, not to mention probably Shii-Cho as a foundation of those other two. Same goes with Anakin except exchange Soresu for Shien, hel he seems to have had a grounding in Niman as well since he went with dual wielding at times. Joclad was still, according to the link you posted first, a master of Niman. He was hailed as one of the greatest duelists with lightsabers in the order. Not as the greatest hand to hand combatant, lightsabers. Which, when you use two of them, is using a style of Niman.

But this is clearly not about forms or game benefits. Show us here on the baby Yoda where the dreadful Niman style touched you.

I just mentally delete everything he bolds. The fact that it deletes most of his point is fine by me.

1 minute ago, Daeglan said:

I just mentally delete everything he bolds. The fact that it deletes most of his point is fine by me.

Sometimes I just read the bolded portions, makes for a quick read of a wall of text. If Tramp's going to the effort of bolding the main points then I'll take advantage of it.

38 minutes ago, Jedi Ronin said:

This is ridiculous. So what the Jedi Order at it's height only had 2 masters of the lightsaber? Maybe 3? If that's your standard fine, but it's rendering the rest of this argument ridiculous (which has wandered from blade work to then combat effectiveness then to lightsaber combat then to anything tangentially playing a role in a combat to now master 5 forms).

That's exactly what I'm saying. The true masters of the blade were the Battlemasters . They devoted their entire existence to weapon training, mastering all of the lightsaber forms, and often other combat techniques as well.

29 minutes ago, penpenpen said:

Well, you see Niiman is weak because it's a jack of all trades. The trick is to study all other forms and become a jack of 5/6 trades!

I know, this revelation might give you a headache, perhaps even nausea, dizziness or temporary memory loss, but thats just means the logic is working.

No. What I'm saying is to devote the time and energy into mastering all of the other five forms. In other words, Maxing out all five trees as well as maxing out skill ranks in lightsaber . And, even then, you don't need to master all of the forms. But mastering two complimentary forms (such as Ataru paired with Soresu ) will go a lot farther than Niman ever will. The Ultimate offensive form paired with the ultimate defensive form. Master both forms, and you're likely to be almost unbeatable.

2 minutes ago, Darth Revenant said:

I know what Teras Käsi is, you don't have to bold stuff. I know I'm shouting into the wind, but it comes off as derisive and rude and makes people less willing to see your point. Wind shouting done.

You build on the simple things and weave them together. If a honest lunge will do it then there is no need for any excessive flair, feints should all be attacks that are meant to hit and movements shouldn't be wasted, when you move your opponent should have to move as much or more, or die. Wasted movements are a waste of energy, needlessly complex stuff that accomplices the same things as the basic ones are a waste.

As for Joclad, you're the one who brought him up as an example. He knew more than one type of fighting, it seems like most Jedi did. Obi-Wan knew both Ataru and Soresu, not to mention probably Shii-Cho as a foundation of those other two. Same goes with Anakin except exchange Soresu for Shien, hel he seems to have had a grounding in Niman as well since he went with dual wielding at times. Joclad was still, according to the link you posted first, a master of Niman. He was hailed as one of the greatest duelists with lightsabers in the order. Not as the greatest hand to hand combatant, lightsabers. Which, when you use two of them, is using a style of Niman.

But this is clearly not about forms or game benefits. Show us here on the baby Yoda where the dreadful Niman style touched you.

But what about when the "honest lunge" won't do. What happens when the simple doesn't work? That's the problem with Niman. It doesn't go beyond the simple, and easy to master . That is its weakness.

HEre's another problem with Niman (in particular the talent tree). Niman is supposed to be the foundation form for learning Jar Kai. In other words, it's supposed to be used for learning two weapon fighting. However, the form has no talents whatsoever geared towards making two-weapon fighting more effective.

9 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

That's exactly what I'm saying. The true masters of the blade were the Battlemasters . They devoted their entire existence to weapon training, mastering all of the lightsaber forms, and often other combat techniques as well.

Ok, you agree exactly? So at the height of the Jedi Order - AOTC era - there were 2 or 3 masters of the lightsaber? And you've been griping this whole time because...Niman's "jack of all trades" approach doesn't replicate 5 other forms?

You still haven't confronted the Niman Disciple I described - Lightsaber 5, Willpower 6, Parry, Reflect, Sum Djem, Draw Closer, Dedication, (Improved) Center of Being, Defensive Training - cannot in any honesty be described the way you have: lackluster devotion to blade work, lackluster ability in combat. It can't be done in this system - the world you're describing doesn't exist in this gaming system.

SO what I get is to satisfy Tramp you have to have all lightsaber form trees fully filled out.

Wonder how many threads have to be locked before this git admits he's full of it.

26 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

But mastering two complimentary forms (such as Ataru paired with Soresu ) will go a lot farther than Niman ever will. The Ultimate offensive form paired with the ultimate defensive form. Master both forms, and you're likely to be almost unbeatable.

Oh, so spending XP to max out 2 Specializations makes you more effective than if you'd only spent XP on one specialization? If you're going to compare 2 maxed out spec trees with each other then Niman has synergy with EVERYTHING. Want a boost to your "real lightsaber" form's core technique? Niman gives you Force Rating along with more Reflect, Parry, Sum Djem, Defensive Stance, Dedication, etc. You're Ataru and you can choose to max out Soresu - yup, some great defensive stuff there - with Niman you pick up fairly comparable defensive stuff (better and worse in some ways Improved Center of Being but no Supreme Parry, Defensive Training but no Defensive Stance, etc) AND you also get Force Rating bump which Ataru wants bady because it makes their Most Powerful Talent In The Game (Saber Swarm) even better because now you can do Linked 2 (and Hawkbat Swoop will be more effective in doing it's thing and powering Saber Swarm). Increased ranks in Force Rating are a big big deal for the Ataru practitioner - and you don't sacrifice much (if any) defensive capability by choosing Niman over Soresu. Ataru's two powerhouse Talents rely on Force Rating and with Niman they get it along with other lightsaber form stuff to not slow them down in their lightsaber combat progression.