Just now, StriderZessei said:

Imma have to review some Japanese history, methinks.

The samurai during the Sengoku no Jidai, the long civil war during the 16th centuary, loved guns. A blacksmith under the lord of Tenegashima managed to replicate and improve on the design of a matchlock after having seen and disassembled two Portugese ones his lord purchased. In ten years they had 300 000 of the things built. They built them as pistols as well. Samurai loved them some firearms. The focus on swords was a thing that came about during the 200 years of peace following the civil war where Samurai had to somehow validate their existence in a peaceful society where they were the one ones with the privilege of carrying swords. Before then the way of the samurai was the way of the horse and the bow, they did not duel with swords. They dueled as horse archers circling each others trying to get a clean arrow hit. After they had downed an enemy that was the time when the sword came out, to collect the head. You couldn't claim a kill without bringing a head to your liege lord. As bonus you desecrated the corpse of your enemy and prevented them access to a decent afterlife by cutting off their head fully. Seppuku was considered a better alternative since the head wasn't supposed to be cleanly cut off.

1 hour ago, Jedi Ronin said:

I’ve studied martial arts for many years and this distinction of “just blade work” is odd. It’s not how systems are developed or practiced.

I've studied martial arts very sporadically and very little, and I concur. Anyone with half an hour's basic instruction with any type of sword probably would.

17 hours ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Also, given the actual speeds the blaster bolts have been clocked at on screen (this was tested on Mythbusters), yes, you can deflect a blaster bolt with just the blade work. They really don’t travel that fast. They don’t even travel much faster than a baseball.

But somehow, they travel much faster at longer range. It's almost like blaster bolts have to accommodate a minimum travel time that just happens to be enough for them to be visible to observers with the naked eye.

1 minute ago, penpenpen said:

But somehow, they travel much faster at longer range. It's almost like blaster bolts have to accommodate a minimum travel time that just happens to be enough for them to be visible to observers with the naked eye.

It's almost as if they don't really exist, but are represented in a visual storytelling medium, so their speed is exactly enough for viewers to say "Oh, this person is shooting there."

Weird, right?

Kind of the same way that most sword techniques seen on film are terrible to use in an actual fight, because sword techniques in film are supposed to communicate a story to the audience, whereas in an actual fight you don't want the person you're fighting to be able to prepare a defense? (Which, incidentally, is why it is so difficult to both train to be an effective stuntperson/stage combatant and an actual martial artist, and why it is much harder to cross over from professional wrestling to mixed martial arts.)

6 hours ago, penpenpen said:

Indeed, the issue isn't with the form per se, but that it can be reasonably effective while halfassing the saber.

While this is technically a strength, it could also encourage practioners to neglect their saber skills, or as Tramp puts it, "use the force as a crutch". This isn't a weakness of the form per se, rather it illustrates a strength .

While it's a bit of conjecture, an argument can be made that Niiman would be the most effective form for the amount of practice you put into it, at least at an early stage, as it utilizes skills a Jedi already possesses.

This is a person with good reasoning skills (congratulations @penpenpen )

Couple this with

The jedi order put a great deal of effort into hybridizing all the forms that came before it to create a "completely new" style of combat. They wouldn't have done that if they didn't think they could gain some sort of benefit, and they wouldn't have kept and promoted the resulting form if it didn't provide some kind of benefit. Given that it was supposedly an extremely common form, that means it was in some sense very beneficial. Which gets you back to the bolded bit only it's not so much conjecture

Canonically niman is the most balanced form.

1 hour ago, Jedi Ronin said:

I’ve studied martial arts for many years and this distinction of “just blade work” is odd. It’s not how systems are developed or practiced.

For example Kenjustsu and Aikido are often taught together because they compliment each other.

5 hours ago, Daeglan said:

Basically showing that not only is the tool not the best for the job. They were poorly maintaining the tool exasperating the problem.

Correct... to be more specific... canonically shien was the best tool/form for the job and makashi was the worst. Poorly maintaining niman is what made it "worse" than makashi in terms of survival rates at genosis.

44 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

For example Kenjustsu and Aikido are often taught together because they compliment each other.

As an example of the opposite, sword + buckler and longsword don't have very much in common at all, at least at the entry level, despite being rather similar weapons. Quarterstaff and greatsword (montante) on the other hand do. So what goes together isn't all that intuitive either.

45 minutes ago, EliasWindrider said:

Correct... to be more specific... canonically shien was the best tool/form for the job and makashi was the worst. Poorly maintaining niman is what made it "worse" than makashi in terms of survival rates at genosis.

There's been several times in our exchanges with Tramp where he's pieced together this very point and you even mapped it out for him in response but he doesn't respond to it.

Yeah, there are forms better at offense than Niman, forms better on defense, a form better for straight up dueling, etc but no form (as represented in FFG) that has the whole package like Niman giving the practitioner tools to deal with a wider array situations. Niman has more offense than a bunch of forms, better defense than a bunch of forms, etc. Tramp points out that each form (except Niman) has that one thing they are the best at (though this is even debatable when deciding between best defense, etc) but then counts those things Niman is best at - a completer picture/balance and Force use integration - as not being useful (adaptability) but as a detriment. It's pure semantic nonsense that ignores the facts of the form especially as represented in FFG.

There is very little on-screen evidence beyond a cast-off line by Dooku in Attack of the Clones for the existence of specialized lightsaber forms to begin with. Dooku's comment was somewhat expanded in the novelization of Attack of the Clones , but much like special snowflake lightsaber crystals, lightsaber forms are mostly fan-**** that grew out assorted games, comics, and legends novels over the years. Even now almost every "canon" reference is a comic book. One could very easily watch the shows and movies and not conclude that unique crystals and conjectural lightsaber forms are significant elements one need worry about to begin with. What we're so furiously debating is, for the most part, a bunch of hypothetical bantha poodoo.

From an FFG Star Wars gaming perspective, however, Niman Disciple is a solid spec, er, form.

2 minutes ago, Vondy said:

There is very little on-screen evidence beyond a cast-off line by Dooku in Attack of the Clones for the existence of specialized lightsaber forms to begin with. Dooku's comment was somewhat expanded in the novelization of Attack of the Clones , but much like special snowflake lightsaber crystals, lightsaber forms are mostly fan-**** that grew out assorted games, comics, and legends novels over the years. Even now almost every "canon" reference is a comic book. One could very easily watch the shows and movies and not conclude that unique crystals and conjectural lightsaber forms are significant elements one need worry about to begin with. What we're so furiously debating is, for the most part, a bunch of hypothetical bantha poodoo.

From an FFG Star Wars gaming perspective, however, Niman Disciple is a solid spec, er, form.

Star Wars Rebels mentions Forms (Ezra and Ahsoka watch a holocron image of Anakin teaching at form - don't recall which one) and Clone Wars might go into it a bit but it's nowhere near as in depth and encompassing as this conversation makes it out to be. For understandable reasons RPGs tend to emphasize these things and blow up their significance. Great comment.

I do think it amusing how fans have tried to bolt on the varous Forms knowledge to the films and what's depicted there especially when that isn't how the film choreography was developed (at all). My favorites of this genre are "making sense" of Qui-gon and Obi-wan vs Darth Maul and Yoda's fighting style.

20 hours ago, micheldebruyn said:

It's like you didn't even watch the video of Obi-Wan Kenobi to Luke explaining how Reflect works.

You mean where Luke asks him if the Force controls your actions ? Where he replies that, yes," partially , but it also obeys your commands."? Where he tells Luke to, "Let go of your conscious self and act on instinct. "? He's not telling Luke to consciously use the Force to reflect the blade. He's telling Luke to act instinctively , rather than rely on his normal senses, and let the Force guide his hand.Specifically, he says, "Let go your conscious self and act on instinct."

It should also be noted that Qui Gon tells Shmi that Anakin could see things before they happened, thus appearing to have super-human reflexes. This wasn't something Anakin did consciously . Quite the contrary. Earlier, he tells Anakin that he "must have Jedi Reflexes" in order to be able to be the only Human capable of piloting a Pod Racer. The key here, however, is that these are not instances of the individual consciously using the Force. Rather, it is the Force guiding them on a subconscious, and instinctive level. That is a clear and very important distinction.

19 hours ago, Daeglan said:

Your attitude is like saying a pistol is a bad tool. It is not the best tool for the battle field and likely will result in your death on a battle field because it is not the right tool for the job. A rifle is the right tool. But it is not the right tool for law enforcement. Cops use pistols because itnis a more suitable tool for that task. Niman is like a pistol. For certain jobs it is great. For others it is terrible. You using a single lens to judge things doesnt make.you right it just means you are blinding your self to much of reality.

The pistol is a sidearm . At best it's a last resort in case you lose your primary weapon. It's better than nothing, but not really the right tool for the job in a battlefield situation. It's fine for a cop on patrol, since they're not likely to be facing down heavily armed and well-trained combatants . The same thing is true of Niman. It's basically useless in a battlefield situation, though it's better than nothing in a pinch. It's really only useful against criminals and thugs, not well-trained, heavily armed combatants.

7 hours ago, EliasWindrider said:

The problem with your suggestion is selection bias , niman practitioners generally didn't master their form, canonically they slacked at the saber, the best niman user at genosis was likely not a niman master. And random bad luck could even explain the death of one niman master. There is a highly plausible alternate explanation for why all niman practitioners at genosis died.

And I noticed you conceded/didn't argue any other point in that long rebuttal of your long post. There is one point I want to pull out a disciple is more devoted than a practitioner . The lightsaber form spec isn't meant to represent lightsaber slackers because PCs are meant to be exceptional by the virtue of them being PCs.

Except Even Path of the Jedi mentions that the reason why it is so popular among Consulars is its ease of mastery . That is a key point. This suggests that the Jedi in question do master the form. But that the form itself is not adequate for anything more than as a last resort when diplomacy fails, or against poorly trained criminals. It's fine for basic self-defense in a pinch, but not real combat against trained professionals . A good analogy would be to compare someone who has completed the full course of Self-defense at the Y, vs a master of Mantis style Shao-Lin Kung_Fu .

2 hours ago, penpenpen said:

But somehow, they travel much faster at longer range. It's almost like blaster bolts have to accommodate a minimum travel time that just happens to be enough for them to be visible to observers with the naked eye.

They have a constant travel time regardless of distance, yes, at least they appear to . In fact, specifically, their speed is a constant number of pixels per second across the screen rather than a constant number of meters per second within any given scene. However, Adam Savage came up with an average speed of 130-135 MPH across all six movies. While dodging "Blaster bolts" proved basically impossible, they did bring in someone who was able to deflect them with a "lightsaber".

35 minutes ago, Jedi Ronin said:

There's been several times in our exchanges with Tramp where he's pieced together this very point and you even mapped it out for him in response but he doesn't respond to it.

Yeah, there are forms better at offense than Niman, forms better on defense, a form better for straight up dueling, etc but no form (as represented in FFG) that has the whole package like Niman giving the practitioner tools to deal with a wider array situations. Niman has more offense than a bunch of forms, better defense than a bunch of forms, etc. Tramp points out that each form (except Niman) has that one thing they are the best at (though this is even debatable when deciding between best defense, etc) but then counts those things Niman is best at - a completer picture/balance and Force use integration - as not being useful (adaptability) but as a detriment. It's pure semantic nonsense that ignores the facts of the form especially as represented in FFG.

When it comes to combat, you're either the best or your dead . Being mediocre at everything will get you killed.

9 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

When it comes to combat, you're either the best or your dead . Being mediocre at everything will get you killed.

Oh, come on Tramp, now even you know you're trolling. You did exactly what I'd say you'd do. Are you constitutionally capable of actually engaging in an argument? Or do you not see that you're moving your goal posts so far to be ridiculous that it even invalidates all sorts of arguments you've made before? If THE standard for combat is being the best (or you're dead!) then all the forms are garbage because each one has weaknesses to common scenarios. Niman has a solid effective response to ALL the things you'd need to do in combat - that's not mediocre that's adaptable and effective - and more than serveral other forms can claim.

Just now, Jedi Ronin said:

Oh, come on Tramp, now even you know you're trolling. You did exactly what I'd say you'd do. Are you constitutionally capable of actually engaging in an argument? Or do you not see that you're moving your goal posts so far to be ridiculous that it even invalidates all sorts of arguments you've made before? If THE standard for combat is being the best (or you're dead!) then all the forms are garbage because each one has weaknesses to common scenarios. Niman has a solid effective response to ALL the things you'd need to do in combat - that's not mediocre that's adaptable and effective - and more than serveral other forms can claim.

IF it were effective in actual combat , against trained soldiers , and not just as a last ditch means of self-defense , then there would have been at least one Niman user among the Jedi survivors of Geonosis. And there wasn't. Every last one was killed, even the best among them, from Padawans, to Jedi Masters, not a single Niman specialist survived.

33 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

IF it were effective in actual combat , against trained soldiers , and not just as a last ditch means of self-defense , then there would have been at least one Niman user among the Jedi survivors of Geonosis. And there wasn't. Every last one was killed, even the best among them, from Padawans, to Jedi Masters, not a single Niman specialist survived.

So, you can't make a sustained in depth argument (at least not on this). That's been addressed several times by multiple posters. Sepecifically, in detail. You don't have to agree (obviously) but you don't address any of the counter points brought up. You just restate your position and your "evidence", which you keep adding small details to that take you further and further away from what your "sources" support (A Niman Master and Jedi Master was killed at Geonisis? Really? Who? And that one instance is a stamp on Niman?) . You're not really engaged in an argument.

EDIT: I’ll also add you totally avoid discussion of the FFG system for the reasons I’ve stared (avoid quantified details)

13 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Except Even Path of the Jedi mentions that the reason why it is so popular among Consulars is its ease of mastery . That is a key point. This suggests that the Jedi in question do master the form. But that the form itself is not adequate for anything more than as a last resort when diplomacy fails, or against poorly trained criminals. It's fine for basic self-defense in a pinch, but not real combat against trained professionals . A good analogy would be to compare someone who has completed the full course of Self-defense at the Y, vs a master of Mantis style Shao-Lin Kung_Fu .

Being easy to master in no way suggests that many people master it

Particularly when it takes 10 years of devotion to master it,

Yeah almost any jedi could become an extremely effective combatant * if *they just put the time in, and that is the strength of niman,

But canonically the lightsaber slacking diplomats * don't * put the time in, they only learn just enough for the last resort.

The y self defense course doesn't take 10 years, so that's a pretty poor analogy

Wing Chun is a much more practical combat style than shaolin

26 minutes ago, Jedi Ronin said:

So, you can't make a sustained in depth argument (at least not on this). That's been addressed several times by multiple posters. Sepecifically, in detail. You don't have to agree (obviously) but you don't address any of the counter points brought up. You just restate your position and your "evidence", which you keep adding small details to that take you further and further away from what your "sources" support (A Niman Master and Jedi Master was killed at Geonisis? Really? Who? And that one instance is a stamp on Niman?) . You're not really engaged in an argument.

How about Jedi Master Sar Labooda ? There's also Jedi Knight Sarissa Jeng , and Jedi Knight Joclad Danva . It should be noted that Danva was a dedicated, expert swordsman, A Jedi Guardian and master martial artist and formidable warrior. He wasn't a "diplomat". He was a fighter. He was a master of his chosen form , yet even he was killed . That speaks volumes of the weakness of the form , not the practitioner.

26 minutes ago, EliasWindrider said:

Being easy to master in no way suggests that many people master it

Particularly when it takes 10 years of devotion to master it,

Yeah almost any jedi could become an extremely effective combatant * if *they just put the time in, and that is the strength of niman,

But canonically the lightsaber slacking diplomats * don't * put the time in, they only learn just enough for the last resort.

The y self defense course doesn't take 10 years, so that's a pretty poor analogy

Wing Chun is a much more practical combat style than shaolin

Maybe, but Shao-Lin is more well-known.

As for Niman, it's "strength", as you put it, is in its "averageness". IF you call being "just OK", a strength, so be it. I don't. The point made by Battlemasters in Path of the Jedi is not that Niman practitioners don't put the time and effort into mastering the form, but that the form itself isn't demanding enough on its practitioners to be viable in real combat. It doesn't require the disciplined study and training of the other forms. And, as such, even the best dedicated Niman user won't be nearly as good in combat as any Jedi dedicated to any one of the other forms.

48 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

How about Jedi Master Sar Labooda ? There's also Jedi Knight Sarissa Jeng , and Jedi Knight Joclad Danva . It should be noted that Danva was a dedicated, expert swordsman, A Jedi Guardian and master martial artist and formidable warrior. He wasn't a "diplomat". He was a fighter. He was a master of his chosen form , yet even he was killed . That speaks volumes of the weakness of the form , not the practitioner.

Maybe, but Shao-Lin is more well-known.

As for Niman, it's "strength", as you put it, is in its "averageness". IF you call being "just OK", a strength, so be it. I don't. The point made by Battlemasters in Path of the Jedi is not that Niman practitioners don't put the time and effort into mastering the form, but that the form itself isn't demanding enough on its practitioners to be viable in real combat. It doesn't require the disciplined study and training of the other forms. And, as such, even the best dedicated Niman user won't be nearly as good in combat as any Jedi dedicated to any one of the other forms.

Again you don’t deal with the details of the responses to you (only tangentially).
You only deal with tangential comments (the real argument isn’t about what legends say who was there exactly).
And in your second part you’ve totally misconstrued the arguments against your point: The claim is not that Niman’s strength is it being OK. And the last part of your argument is incoherent: the form isn’t demanding so it’s practitioners don’t put in the effort? The form is making people not work hard.
And again, your response is misstatements of counter arguments, which you avoid confronting.
You totally avoid discussion of the FFG system for the reasons I’ve stated (to avoid quantified details).

EDIT

Looking again at your last section, it’s not incoherent just awkwardly phrased (to me). Still your assertion is not satisfied by the “evidence”. Which is obvious when in the context of this RPG.

Poor Sar Labooda, Jedi Master and 1800XP character. She maxed out the Niman Disciple Specialization and now she’s dead because she didn’t max out Makashi, a real combat form that was worth her effort.

54 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

How about Jedi Master Sar Labooda ? There's also Jedi Knight Sarissa Jeng , and Jedi Knight Joclad Danva . It should be noted that Danva was a dedicated, expert swordsman, A Jedi Guardian and master martial artist and formidable warrior. He wasn't a "diplomat". He was a fighter. He was a master of his chosen form , yet even he was killed . That speaks volumes of the weakness of the form , not the practitioner.

Maybe, but Shao-Lin is more well-known.

As for Niman, it's "strength", as you put it, is in its "averageness". IF you call being "just OK", a strength, so be it. I don't. The point made by Battlemasters in Path of the Jedi is not that Niman practitioners don't put the time and effort into mastering the form, but that the form itself isn't demanding enough on its practitioners to be viable in real combat. It doesn't require the disciplined study and training of the other forms. And, as such, even the best dedicated Niman user won't be nearly as good in combat as any Jedi dedicated to any one of the other forms.

1) many not all, many doesn't even mean most, but some do

You're right that niman didn't require the discipline study and training of the other forms to be effective.

Mastery is another matter entirely.

According to Jedi Battlemaster Cin Drallig , if a duelist dedicated himself exclusively to Form VI, he could expect to study the style for at least ten years before achieving mastery. ^[17]

The 10 year requirement rules out the vast majority of jedi at genosis as being niman masters, most were newly minted knights.

But let's look at Danva

Danva actually survived all the way to the end of the genosis arena battle only to get shot dead while boarding a laat.

Bad luck there, possibly a loss of focus after believing himself safe, but it proves a niman master was capable of surviving genosis

You lose

Returning to the Jedi Temple after the competition, Danva was summoned by Master of the Order Mace Windu to join a massive Jedi strike team that was headed for Geonosis . Joining his fellow Jedi, Danva flew out to Geonosis and set his starfighter down in the dusty plains of the world, before marching into the Petranaki arena where Jedi Obi-Wan Kenobi , Anakin Skywalker , and Senator Padmé Amidala were being prepared for execution by the Confederacy of Independent Systems . Following Windu's cue, Danva and the other Jedi spread throughout the arena ignited their lightsabers and began cutting down the hordes of battle droids filling the arena. After a great battle on the arena floor, Danva and the twenty-some Jedi left standing received an ultimatum from Confederacy leader Count Dooku : surrender and join him, or die. Choosing to take their chances with the battle droids, the Jedi prepared to fight to the death when Grand Master Yoda arrived with the Grand Army of the Republic . Danva had the chance to reach a ship and escape the arena, but died whilst attempting to escape. ^[1]

8 minutes ago, Jedi Ronin said:

Again you don’t deal with the details of the responses to you (only tangentially).
You only deal with tangential comments (the real argument isn’t about what legends say who was there exactly).
And in your second part you’ve totally misconstrued the arguments against your point: The claim is not that Niman’s strength is it being OK. And the last part of your argument is incoherent: the form isn’t demanding so it’s practitioners don’t put in the effort? The form is making people not work hard.
And again, your response is misstatements of counter arguments, which you avoid confronting.
You totally avoid discussion of the FFG system for the reasons I’ve stated (to avoid quantified details).

No, my argument is that the problem with Niman is not that the users aren't putting in the effort. The problem, as the Jedi Battlemasters in Path of the Jedi say, the Form itself isn't demanding enough to make practitioners really very good no matter what. It's easy to master the techniques, and, because of that, those techniques themselves aren't that effective. There's not much to them . They're mediocre at best, and only good for dealing with relatively untrained opponents .

The more difficult a skill set is to master, nine times out of ten, that skill set is going to inherently be much more effective than a skill set that is very easy to master. Difficulty in mastery equals effectiveness in application once mastered. So, if something is easy to master, its effectiveness in application inherently won't be nearly as good something which requires much greater effort. Niman requires very little effort to master its techniques. Sure, a practitioner could spend every waking moment mastering those techniques, but, It doesn't take that long to do . and didn't require all that much effort to begin with.Then what? Sure, you could keep on practicing them, but there's only so much you can get out of those techniques because there is an inherent limit to them. Effort required ultimately equals the reward earned. And that reward is its effectiveness in practical use. So, the problem isn't that the practitioners aren't putting in the effort, it's that there is a limit to how much effort can be put into it in the first place and still expect to improve. There is a limit to how much practice you can put into it before you don't get any more real benefit from said practice.

That was my point with the example of the Self Defense course vs Shao-lin Kung Fu. A Self Defense course at the local Y isn't that difficult to master . This is because there's not much to it , not very many techniques to it, and those techniques are only basic techniques to fend off relatively untrained attackers, not hardened combatants . By contrast, Shao-Lin kung Fu requires years, if no decades of intense study and practice to master incredibly intricate and difficult combat techniques intended to be used against other highly trained combatants . IT was also designed to instill discipline and self-control by forcing its practitioners to undergo intense, rigorous training. \

That is the same when comparing Niman to any of the other lightsaber forms. Niman doesn't require much effort to learn or master. There aren't that many lightsaber techniques to it, and what techniques it does have aren't that intricate. They don't require any real effort nor discipline. As such, there's only so much you can get out of the form . This is because, it only takes the basics of the other forms. It takes the easiest techniques , of each, not the really hard ones, not the ones that really make those forms so dominating in what they do best. By contrast, Soresu requires a great deal of intensive training to master very difficult and intricate bladework in order to be effective, and a master of defense.

To the question someone asked about does footwork fall under bladework? Yes, yes it does. Good bladework, as with any fighting form, is not just about how you hold the blade, but how your whole body moves while wielding it. Footwork is a huge part of that since it establishes how well you can keep your balance, how quickly you can react, and how powerful your blows or thrusts are.

13 hours ago, Tramp Graphics said:

No, my argument is that the problem with Niman is not that the users aren't putting in the effort. The problem, as the Jedi Battlemasters in Path of the Jedi say, the Form itself isn't demanding enough to make practitioners really very good no matter what. It's easy to master the techniques, and, because of that, those techniques themselves aren't that effective. There's not much to them . They're mediocre at best, and only good for dealing with relatively untrained opponents .

The more difficult a skill set is to master, nine times out of ten, that skill set is going to inherently be much more effective than a skill set that is very easy to master. Difficulty in mastery equals effectiveness in application once mastered. So, if something is easy to master, its effectiveness in application inherently won't be nearly as good something which requires much greater effort. Niman requires very little effort to master its techniques. Sure, a practitioner could spend every waking moment mastering those techniques, but, It doesn't take that long to do . and didn't require all that much effort to begin with.Then what? Sure, you could keep on practicing them, but there's only so much you can get out of those techniques because there is an inherent limit to them. Effort required ultimately equals the reward earned. And that reward is its effectiveness in practical use. So, the problem isn't that the practitioners aren't putting in the effort, it's that there is a limit to how much effort can be put into it in the first place and still expect to improve. There is a limit to how much practice you can put into it before you don't get any more real benefit from said practice.

That was my point with the example of the Self Defense course vs Shao-lin Kung Fu. A Self Defense course at the local Y isn't that difficult to master . This is because there's not much to it , not very many techniques to it, and those techniques are only basic techniques to fend off relatively untrained attackers, not hardened combatants . By contrast, Shao-Lin kung Fu requires years, if no decades of intense study and practice to master incredibly intricate and difficult combat techniques intended to be used against other highly trained combatants . IT was also designed to instill discipline and self-control by forcing its practitioners to undergo intense, rigorous training. \

That is the same when comparing Niman to any of the other lightsaber forms. Niman doesn't require much effort to learn or master. There aren't that many lightsaber techniques to it, and what techniques it does have aren't that intricate. They don't require any real effort nor discipline. As such, there's only so much you can get out of the form . This is because, it only takes the basics of the other forms. It takes the easiest techniques , of each, not the really hard ones, not the ones that really make those forms so dominating in what they do best. By contrast, Soresu requires a great deal of intensive training to master very difficult and intricate bladework in order to be effective, and a master of defense.

To the question someone asked about does footwork fall under bladework? Yes, yes it does. Good bladework, as with any fighting form, is not just about how you hold the blade, but how your whole body moves while wielding it. Footwork is a huge part of that since it establishes how well you can keep your balance, how quickly you can react, and how powerful your blows or thrusts are.

You won’t engage the actual arguments.

I’m not following you on any more rabbit trails.

Here’s my argument in a nutshell: what does this have to do with FFG Star Wars?

1 hour ago, Tramp Graphics said:

IF it were effective in actual combat , against trained soldiers , and not just as a last ditch means of self-defense , then there would have been at least one Niman user among the Jedi survivors of Geonosis. And there wasn't. Every last one was killed, even the best among them, from Padawans, to Jedi Masters, not a single Niman specialist survived.

Mace Windu Survived so you just lied.

Yoda Survived so you just lied.

If Niman got people killed then neither Yoda or Mace Windu would have survived.

Annakin got his arm ripped off so by your logic Ataru and Shien suck.

Qui Gon died, because of Ataru so by your logic Ataru sucks monkey balls.

7 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

No, my argument is that the problem with Niman is not that the users aren't putting in the effort. The problem, as the Jedi Battlemasters in Path of the Jedi say, the Form itself isn't demanding enough to make practitioners really very good no matter what. It's easy to master the techniques, and, because of that, those techniques themselves aren't that effective. There's not much to them . They're mediocre at best, and only good for dealing with relatively untrained opponents .

The more difficult a skill set is to master, nine times out of ten, that skill set is going to inherently be much more effective than a skill set that is very easy to master. Difficulty in mastery equals effectiveness in application once mastered. So, if something is easy to master, its effectiveness in application inherently won't be nearly as good something which requires much greater effort. Niman requires very little effort to master its techniques. Sure, a practitioner could spend every waking moment mastering those techniques, but, It doesn't take that long to do . and didn't require all that much effort to begin with.Then what? Sure, you could keep on practicing them, but there's only so much you can get out of those techniques because there is an inherent limit to them. Effort required ultimately equals the reward earned. And that reward is its effectiveness in practical use. So, the problem isn't that the practitioners aren't putting in the effort, it's that there is a limit to how much effort can be put into it in the first place and still expect to improve. There is a limit to how much practice you can put into it before you don't get any more real benefit from said practice.

That was my point with the example of the Self Defense course vs Shao-lin Kung Fu. A Self Defense course at the local Y isn't that difficult to master . This is because there's not much to it , not very many techniques to it, and those techniques are only basic techniques to fend off relatively untrained attackers, not hardened combatants . By contrast, Shao-Lin kung Fu requires years, if no decades of intense study and practice to master incredibly intricate and difficult combat techniques intended to be used against other highly trained combatants . IT was also designed to instill discipline and self-control by forcing its practitioners to undergo intense, rigorous training. \

That is the same when comparing Niman to any of the other lightsaber forms. Niman doesn't require much effort to learn or master. There aren't that many lightsaber techniques to it, and what techniques it does have aren't that intricate. They don't require any real effort nor discipline. As such, there's only so much you can get out of the form . This is because, it only takes the basics of the other forms. It takes the easiest techniques , of each, not the really hard ones, not the ones that really make those forms so dominating in what they do best. By contrast, Soresu requires a great deal of intensive training to master very difficult and intricate bladework in order to be effective, and a master of defense.

To the question someone asked about does footwork fall under bladework? Yes, yes it does. Good bladework, as with any fighting form, is not just about how you hold the blade, but how your whole body moves while wielding it. Footwork is a huge part of that since it establishes how well you can keep your balance, how quickly you can react, and how powerful your blows or thrusts are.

Niman requires 10+ years of devotion to master. That's a whole lot of nuthin' 😀 the y self defense class analogy is piss poor

18 minutes ago, EliasWindrider said:

1) many not all, many doesn't even mean most, but some do

You're right that niman didn't require the discipline study and training of the other forms to be effective.

Mastery is another matter entirely.

According to Jedi Battlemaster Cin Drallig , if a duelist dedicated himself exclusively to Form VI, he could expect to study the style for at least ten years before achieving mastery. ^[17]

The 10 year requirement rules out the vast majority of jedi at genosis as being niman masters, most were newly minted knights.

But let's look at Danva

Danva actually survived all the way to the end of the genosis arena battle only to get shot dead while boarding a laat.

Bad luck there, but it proves a niman master was capable of surviving genosis

You lose

Returning to the Jedi Temple after the competition, Danva was summoned by Master of the Order Mace Windu to join a massive Jedi strike team that was headed for Geonosis . Joining his fellow Jedi, Danva flew out to Geonosis and set his starfighter down in the dusty plains of the world, before marching into the Petranaki arena where Jedi Obi-Wan Kenobi , Anakin Skywalker , and Senator Padmé Amidala were being prepared for execution by the Confederacy of Independent Systems . Following Windu's cue, Danva and the other Jedi spread throughout the arena ignited their lightsabers and began cutting down the hordes of battle droids filling the arena. After a great battle on the arena floor, Danva and the twenty-some Jedi left standing received an ultimatum from Confederacy leader Count Dooku : surrender and join him, or die. Choosing to take their chances with the battle droids, the Jedi prepared to fight to the death when Grand Master Yoda arrived with the Grand Army of the Republic . Danva had the chance to reach a ship and escape the arena, but died whilst attempting to escape. ^[1]

Yes, he died while attempting to escape. Why is that? Other Jedi using other forms survived while attempting to escape, and made it off the battlefield. Could it be that the limitations inherent in NIman didn't give him the tools he needed to be good enough to deflect the shot ( s ) that killed him?

As for the 10 years to master. Given that a Padawan's training takes at least that long, that doesn't say much. Soresu, Ataru, etc take

Just now, Jedi Ronin said:

You won’t engage the actual arguments.

I’m not following you on anyone rabbit trails.

Here’s my argument in a nutshell: what does this have to do with FFG Star Wars?

Everything. Niman Disciple devotes slots to Force Rating and to Force techniques that deal with telekinesis, rather than lightsaber combat. While this fits with the lore, it takes slots away from talents like Parry or Reflect (or their improved or Supreme versions), or other lightsaber combat focused talents. It also includes talents geared more towards Social encounters, not combat . It sacrifices talents that could make the user more effective in combat with the lightsaber for power in the Force and for effectiveness in diplomacy. Think about it, what do the talents Nobody's Fool and Sense Emotions , have to do with a lightsaber battle ? All other forms are devoted to lightsaber combat exclusively . and all of the talents in those forms apply to that focus one way or another. Niman Disciple has fewer Lightsaber focused talents than any other form, and includes several talents which have nothing at all to do with lightsaber combat. That is how it has to do with FFG star Wars.

2 minutes ago, Decorus said:

Mace Windu Survived so you just lied.

Yoda Survived so you just lied.

If Niman got people killed then neither Yoda or Mace Windu would have survived.

Annakin got his arm ripped off so by your logic Ataru and Shien suck.

Qui Gon died, because of Ataru so by your logic Ataru sucks monkey balls.

Canonically, Yoda is an Ataru master. He uses Enhance to boost his age-reduced agility to that of his youth. In fact, much of the text regarding Ataru's use of leaps, flips, and other acrobatics to make attacks, and avoid hits, is based upon Yoda in his fights with Dooku and Palpatine. The game designers gave him Niman because of his high Willpower (reflecting his high wisdom). On screen he uses Ataru . Yoda doesn't combine Force powers (other than enhance) in conjunction with his lightsaber. He uses either his lightsaber or Force powers. When he's fighting Dooku, they start by using Force powers, then switch to use of the lightsaber, an he doesn't use any more Force powers until he has to save Anakin and Obi-Wan with telekinesis. He certainly never uses either of Niman's "signiature techniques". He's using Ataru, not Niman.

Mace Windu is a master of all six forms, as was Cin Drelig. And created Vapaad.