Finally a reason to use the Assault Frigate A...

23 minutes ago, DblVsdGuy said:

Finally a reason to use the Assault Frigate A...

From the rumblings i’ve seen on discord I think @geek19 might have other reasons to like the much-maligned potato. I still want to try me some crazy ideas with the cards coming *cough SALVO cough* for the Rise of Potato!

but HFZ could make a good home there too

35 minutes ago, cadetvw said:

From the rumblings i’ve seen on discord I think @geek19 might have other reasons to like the much-maligned potato. I still want to try me some crazy ideas with the cards coming *cough SALVO cough* for the Rise of Potato!

but HFZ could make a good home there too

Dont use Geek as a barometer. Its dangerous.

I like the Assault mkIIA with Heavy Fire. Shame it cant also take Ruthless

On 12/29/2019 at 1:21 AM, BiggsIRL said:

Here's the thing, those bullet points are not steps, they are clarifiers.

As the rules are written I respectfully disagree. The diamond bullet points in each attack step reference another rule somewhere else in the Rule Reference. For instance, the bullets in step 2 have the reminder of what armament is legal based on defender with no mention of that in the section 'Roll Attack Dice". If we use them to clarify each other attack step then we have to include it for step 1 that includes a range restriction based what is attacking. The card's intention very well could be how you describe but as is it is either poorly written or poorly translated.

We better start picking team names.

I nominate for the side that says you can replace your blue die with reds and attack at long range as

"TEAM REDS"

I nominate for the side that says you can replace your blue die with reds, as long as you are in medium range and AS armament die color etc. as

"TEAM BLUES"

Team Oranple is the only appropriate team.

1 hour ago, BiggsIRL said:

Team Oranple is the only appropriate team.

So maybe this one will turn out to be Team Bled. 😂

Currently I'm for Team Red

5 hours ago, eliteone said:

We better start picking team names.

I nominate for the side that says you can replace your blue die with reds and attack at long range as

"TEAM REDS"

I nominate for the side that says you can replace your blue die with reds, as long as you are in medium range and AS armament die color etc. as

"TEAM BLUES"

I counter that the former should be TEAM BLUE and the latter TEAM RED.

I think it's just

Team wrong

And

Team "wanna be wrong"

XD

Also, may I remind that, per the rules we were given in German, Onager had to be explicitly allowed to declare targets beyond its attack range?

Cause to me that looks like relevant somehow.

13 hours ago, codytx2 said:

As the rules are written I respectfully disagree. The diamond bullet points in each attack step reference another rule somewhere else in the Rule Reference. For instance, the bullets in step 2 have the reminder of what armament is legal based on defender with no mention of that in the section 'Roll Attack Dice". If we use them to clarify each other attack step then we have to include it for step 1 that includes a range restriction based what is attacking. The card's intention very well could be how you describe but as is it is either poorly written or poorly translated.

Why would the rules ask you to check attack range in step 1 and then again in step 2?

That's why I'm inclined to think that you don't measure attack range until step 2, for the reasons Biggs stated.

4 hours ago, ovinomanc3r said:

Also, may I remind that, per the rules we were given in German, Onager had to be explicitly allowed to declare targets beyond its attack range?

Cause to me that looks like relevant somehow.

I haven't seen the exact rule for the Onager, but at first glance it would seem different to me because the Onager can attack beyond the range of any dice we currently have, but if you replace the blue anti-squadron dice of a ship with red, then that ship can attack at a range currently available so you don't need any special rule.

1 hour ago, Lemmiwinks86 said:

I haven't seen the exact rule for the Onager, but at first glance it would seem different to me because the Onager can attack beyond the range of any dice we currently have, but if you replace the blue anti-squadron dice of a ship with red, then that ship can attack at a range currently available so you don't need any special rule.

No if you fail to declare a target in the first place, which is the whole point.

16 hours ago, Ginkapo said:

Dont use Geek as a barometer. Its dangerous.

I like the Assault mkIIA with Heavy Fire. Shame it cant also take Ruthless

I'm much more of an anemometer or protractor anyways. Well, my mom thinks I'm acute.

14 minutes ago, geek19 said:

I'm much more of an anemometer or protractor anyways. Well, my mom thinks I'm acute.

She meant obtuse

You set em up, I'll knock em down.

8 hours ago, Bertie Wooster said:

Why would the rules ask you to check attack range in step 1 and then again in step 2?

That's why I'm inclined to think that you don't measure attack range until step 2, for the reasons Biggs stated.

I am in agreement it seems redundant. But its inclusion as a bullet point in the RR combined with the Learn to Play rules makes it seem you have to be able to legally attack at range before gathering dice. The Expanded Rules section of the learn to play later describes LOS but does not give a detailed breakdown of the attack step. From the Learn to Play:

To perform an attack, the player first chooses one of his ship’s hull zones to attack from. Then he declares the defending hull zone on the ship he wants to attack. The defending hull zone must be within firing arc and attack range (see the “Targeting” section later). After declaring the defending hull zone, the attacker determines his attack dice. These dice are printed in the attacking hull zone.

Targeting The defending hull zone must be inside the attacking hull zone’s firing arc (see “Firing Arcs and Hull Zones” on page 9). In addition, the defending hull zone must be at attack range. The attacker uses the range side of the range ruler to determine the range to the chosen hull zone (see “Measuring Firing Arc and Range” on page 14). Each range band on the ruler depicts which colors of attack dice he can roll. For example, at long range a ship can roll only its red attack dice. If the attacking hull zone does not have any red dice, then it cannot perform this attack.

ATTACK RANGE Attack range is the range at which a squadron or a ship’s hull zone can perform an attack as determined by the armament it is using.

Attack Example pg 16

2. The Rebel player declares that the CR90 will attack from its front hull zone and will target the Victory II-class’ rear hull zone. The Rebel player measures firing arc and range, confirming that the rear hull zone of the Victory II-class is within his front hull zone’s arc and that the attack is at medium range.

3. The CR90 has 2 red dice and 1 blue die in its front hull zone. The attack is at medium range, so the Rebel player gathers all 3 dice.

Viewed with these rule descriptions there no longer appears to be a redundancy. The attack range is set in step 1. Move to step 2 and gather all legal dice in the attacking hull zone armament based on the set range from step 1.

I'm throwing my lot in with team red. Let's consider codytx2's point above:

9 hours ago, codytx2 said:

...To perform an attack, the player first chooses one of his ship’s hull zones to attack from. Then he declares the defending hull zone on the ship he wants to attack. The defending hull zone must be within firing arc and attack range (see the “Targeting” section later). After declaring the defending hull zone, the attacker determines his attack dice. These dice are printed in the attacking hull zone....

...ATTACK RANGE Attack range is the range... as determined by the armament it is using....

... Viewed with these rule descriptions there no longer appears to be a redundancy. The attack range is set in step 1. Move to step 2 and gather all legal dice in the attacking hull zone armament based on the set range from step 1.

Now, the big problem word here is Armament in the attack range definition, which is up for negotiation. If armament refers to the dice, then team blue wins. If it refers to anti-ship or anti-squadron battery or to hull zone or something other than dice, then red team wins.

I highlighted what I believe are the key points here. There is nothing in the first bolded text other than the target must be "within...range". If we define armament as battery type or hull zone then this means within the range of an attack . This has no bearing on dice, inherently, it's just to determine overall range. This is the entire ruler, which denotes an attack range or, given the Onager rules, the ignition based ruler.

So, this suggests that all potential dice are gathered in step one, then improper dice are set aside in step 2. If all dice are set aside, then "...For example, at long range a ship can roll only its red attack dice. If the attacking hull zone does not have any red dice, then it cannot perform this attack." Thus, two blue dice would be gathered in step one, turned to red after step one, then selected as appropriate dice in step two for the attack.

Admittedly, I want team red to win. biasedimnotbiased.

4 hours ago, Varulfr said:

I'm throwing my lot in with team red. Let's consider codytx2's point above:

Now, the big problem word here is Armament in the attack range definition, which is up for negotiation. If armament refers to the dice, then team blue wins. If it refers to anti-ship or anti-squadron battery or to hull zone or something other than dice, then red team wins.

I highlighted what I believe are the key points here. There is nothing in the first bolded text other than the target must be "within...range". If we define armament as battery type or hull zone then this means within the range of an attack . This has no bearing on dice, inherently, it's just to determine overall range. This is the entire ruler, which denotes an attack range or, given the Onager rules, the ignition based ruler.

So, this suggests that all potential dice are gathered in step one, then improper dice are set aside in step 2. If all dice are set aside, then "...For example, at long range a ship can roll only its red attack dice. If the attacking hull zone does not have any red dice, then it cannot perform this attack." Thus, two blue dice would be gathered in step one, turned to red after step one, then selected as appropriate dice in step two for the attack.

Admittedly, I want team red to win. biasedimnotbiased.

It must be at attack range .

" Attack range is the range at which a squadron or a ship’s hull zone can perform an attack as determined by the armament it is using.

• A hull zone’s maximum attack range is close range if it has only black dice in its armament, medium range if it has at least one blue die, or long range if it has at least one red die.

• Each squadron’s attack range is distance 1."

Which tells us maximum attack range is defined based on the dice in your armament. And armament is:

"The attacker’s armament indicates the color and number of dice that can be used during an attack. Anti-squadron armament is used when attacking a squadron. Battery armament is used when attacking a ship.

• Each hull zone of a ship has its own battery armament that it uses when the ship attacks from that hull zone.

• Each squadron has a single battery armament.

• A ship has one anti-squadron armament that is used regardless of which hull zone is attacking."

If you must measure range before HFZ triggers, you would be outside of maximum attack range if you did not already have a red die in your armament. If you are not required to measure before HFZ triggers, everything's fine.

It really does boil down to whether @BiggsIRL 's claim about diamond bullet points not being chronological is correct or not.

I also want team red to win, even though it's a lot of fun watching people trying to justify something because it should clearly work in a specific way.

4 hours ago, Varulfr said:

There is nothing in the first bolded text other than the target must be "within...range". If we define armament as battery type or hull zone then this means within the range of an attack . This has no bearing on dice, inherently, it's just to determine overall range.

Dude, both, armament and attack range, are quite clear in the RRG.

For me the answer to the question how HFZ works is quite clear.

1) Declare Target and measure the attack range .

2) Gather dice because of attack range. Then you modify the pool because of obstruction and certain card effects. If there are no dice to roll, you can't attack.

HFZ says: " While attacking a squadron, before you gather dice , if the defender is not engaged with a friendly squadron you may replace all of the blue dice in your anti-squardon armament with red dice."

You measure distance to a squadron you want to attack. It's long range. You use HFZ to swap blue dice for red. Your anti-squadron armament contains red dice before step 2! The attack is legal.

Team blue argues that attack range is determined only by the (printed) armament and it would be too late for HFZ to trigger. Let's take a look at the wording of the bullet point in RRG "Attack", at "Attack Range" and "Armament"!

• "If the attacker is a ship, the defending squadron, or hull zone must be inside the attacking hull zone’s firing arc and at attack range of the attacking hull zone." (RRG p. 2)

" Attack range is the range at which a squadron or a ship’s hull zone can perform an attack as determined by the
armament it is using." (RRG p. 2)

"The attacker’s armament indicates the color and number of dice that can be used during an attack." (RRG p. 2)

The attack range depends from which dice can be used !
It would have been nice if the devs used a clearer wording, but in my eyes the red dice from HFZ can be used during the attack, because they are replaced before you gather dice, if the squadron is not engaged. The HFZ clearly states that you replace the dice in your armament , not in your attack pool. For that you got red dice in your armament and the attack range is long! It's the same like Insidious and Disposable Capacitors that allow to use dice of different color outside their range and you get a wider attack range, because the dice can be used outside of their range.

Why couldn’t they have just made a card that changes your AA armament to a single red die, or added a blue die, or something simple like that? 🙄

Agreed.

The card specifically says anti squadron 'armament' and attack range is determined by armament.

Because it's replacing armament before you gather dice, it makes long range legal.

To be clear I believe the intent of the card is to replace blue dice with red and be able to attack at long range. There is likely something lost in translation as we saw before and what needs clarity is when the dice are actually swapped out or if an attack is able to die in step 1 if nothing is in range. If the intent is to restrict the attack to medium range it would of been simpler to say '..after gathering dice but before rolling you may swap all your blue dice for red dice.' For swapping blue dice for red to be used at long range '...during the declare target step you may swap all your blue dice for red dice.' The current translation points more towards the latter and is probably what it will end up being.

Some people just hate fun, after all 🙂