Hi All!

What are your thoughts on heavy fire zone? Which ships may equip it with some usefulness? Because red dice aren't very reliable when it comes to shooting them at squads, so it isn't worth to use them without dice fix. The extra range is nice, but you still need something to fix that dice.

The text of the card:

"While attacking a squadron, before you gather dice, if the defender is not engaged with a friendly squadron you may replace all of the blue dice in your anti-squadron armament with red dice."

https://starwars-armada.fandom.com/wiki/Heavy_Fire_Zone

Thanks, didn't find those, although scrolled down a little bit.

I'm waiting to see a non-blurry, officially released English version of the card before I share my thoughts.

so we are all in agreement that based on the card text we have seen, it does allow a ship with only blue or black flak dice, to substitute them out for reds and attack with reds at long range?

If that is the case it could be pretty good on a 2 Blue Flaking Nebulon. Their side arcs are really wide and could probably hit the enemies whole fighter wing, Nebs don't usually use the turbolaser slot,

It would also seem that w Liberty with this and LTT could flak out at long range and reroll one of those reds from LTT, would that apply to each flak shot or just a single shot in the volly like a CF token?

2 minutes ago, Space_Cowboy17 said:

so we are all in agreement that based on the card text we have seen, it does allow a ship with only blue or black flak dice, to substitute them out for reds and attack with reds at long range?

If that is the case it could be pretty good on a 2 Blue Flaking Nebulon. Their side arcs are really wide and could probably hit the enemies whole fighter wing, Nebs don't usually use the turbolaser slot,

It would also seem that w Liberty with this and LTT could flak out at long range and reroll one of those reds from LTT, would that apply to each flak shot or just a single shot in the volly like a CF token?

It doesn't work for black dice, it replaces only the blue dice.

10 minutes ago, Space_Cowboy17 said:

so we are all in agreement that based on the card text we have seen, it does allow a ship with only blue or black flak dice, to substitute them out for reds and attack with reds at long range?

No, we all don't agree.

so it allows blue dice to effectively fire at long range though right, that bmean likely ships to use this are basically 2 blue flak ships with a Turboalser slot.

The options that come to mind are ASF Mk 2 A version., the Squadron 2 nebulon, the MC80 Home One, ISD 2, and that's about it really.

I could see a solid flak build for Vanguard with Aux. Shields to beef up its side arcs and make it more resistant to squads, maybe a use for the ASF Mk 2 with Gun teams to throw red dice and red flak.

2 hours ago, Space_Cowboy17 said:

so it allows blue dice to effectively fire at long range though right,

That's the part that not everyone agrees on.

On 12/27/2019 at 5:41 PM, Space_Cowboy17 said:

so we are all in agreement that based on the card text we have seen, it does allow a ship with only blue or black flak dice, to substitute them out for reds and attack with reds at long range?

If that is the case it could be pretty good on a 2 Blue Flaking Nebulon. Their side arcs are really wide and could probably hit the enemies whole fighter wing, Nebs don't usually use the turbolaser slot,

It would also seem that w Liberty with this and LTT could flak out at long range and reroll one of those reds from LTT, would that apply to each flak shot or just a single shot in the volley like a CF token?

A) Only works on blue dice, so no Liberty. Or Cymoon.

B) Linked Turbos are each attack.

C) Some ppl are arguing, for technical reasons understood only by these vocal few, that the card does... nothing.

So basically you're left with the Neb-B Escort, and possibly the AF2 (with or w/o Local Fire Control) as likely candidates.

The only (current) ship that can do the Heavy Fire Zone & Linked Turbos is the Assault SSD.

Why would it allow you to flack at long range? It lets you replace blue dice with red dice — blue dice normally don’t go past medium.

30 minutes ago, Tayloraj100 said:

Why would it allow you to flack at long range? It lets you replace blue dice with red dice — blue dice normally don’t go past medium.

Exactly. Red dice have Long range.

15 minutes ago, Green Knight said:

Exactly. Red dice have Long range.

Not by this point in the attack sequence, they don’t.

It may be stupid, but it’s not wrong .

1 hour ago, Green Knight said:

Exactly. Red dice have Long range.

If you are trying to flack a squadron at long range, you can’t even make the attack in the first place unless you already have red flack dice to begin with. You can’t attack with blue dice until the target is at medium range or closer, and then you can swap those blue dice for red.

Otherwise that sounds similar to arguing that Sato could attack a ship at long range and turn a black or blue die that can’t reach the target into a red one that can.

Unless there’s something weird that I’m missing in the translation that gives the ship red AA batteries instead of blue ones under the right circumstances — not just changing the color of the die but the actual nature of the battery being used. Is that the argument?

1 hour ago, Green Knight said:

Exactly. Red dice have Long range.

Do they? Not when used by squadrons. Not when Kallus changes a blue or black die to a red during an attack.

ARMAMENTS on a ship represented by red, blue, and black pips have the quality that they both roll dice of the same color and have a range of long, medium, and short, respectively. But the DIE itself only has the arrangement of hits, crits, blanks, and accuracies — it’s not strictly tied to range at all. In some circumstances, blue dice can attack at long range, black dice at medium range, and so on.

1 hour ago, Tayloraj100 said:

Do they? Not when used by squadrons. Not when Kallus changes a blue or black die to a red during an attack.

ARMAMENTS on a ship represented by red, blue, and black pips have the quality that they both roll dice of the same color and have a range of long, medium, and short, respectively. But the DIE itself only has the arrangement of hits, crits, blanks, and accuracies — it’s not strictly tied to range at all. In some circumstances, blue dice can attack at long range, black dice at medium range, and so on.

If you want to quote the rules, then quote the rules, do not paraphrase.

The reason squadrons attack at distance 1, is because the following:

Attack
To perform an attack with a squadron or ship, resolve the
following steps:

1. Declare Target: The attacker declares the defender and
the attacking hull zone, if any. If the defender is a ship,
the attacker declares the defending hull zone. Measure
line of sight to the defender to ensure the attack is
possible and to determine if it is obstructed.
◊◊ If the attacker is a ship, the defending squadron or hull
zone must be inside the attacking hull zone’s firing arc
and at attack range of the attacking hull zone.
◊◊ If the attacker is a squadron, the defending squadron
or hull zone must be at distance 1.

Assuming a ship (since we're talking Heavy Fire Zone here), we use the range ruler, and the range ruler tells us red dice attack at Long range:

2. Roll Attack Dice: Gather attack dice to form the attack
pool and roll those dice. Gather only the dice that are
appropriate for the range of the attack as indicated by
the icons on the range ruler.
◊◊ If the defender is a ship, gather the attack dice
indicated in the attacking hull zone’s or squadron’s
battery armament.
◊◊ If the defender is a squadron, gather the attack dice
indicated in the attacker’s anti-squadron armament.
◊◊ If the attacker cannot gather any dice appropriate for
the range of the attack, the attack is canceled.

As for attack range, we have this:

Attack Range
Attack range is the range at which a squadron or a ship’s
hull zone can perform an attack as determined by the
armament it is using.
• A hull zone’s maximum attack range is close range if it
has only black dice in its armament, medium range if it
has at least one blue die, or long range if it has at least
one red die.
• Each squadron’s attack range is distance 1.

And finally the card itself:

Here we can clearly see that you replace the blue dice in your anti-squadron ARMAMENT with red dice. This happens before you roll any dice. Red dice in anti-squadron ARMAMENT.

And what happens when you have red dice in your AS armament?

Ta-da: You can shoot at long range!!!

Edit: If you need more reasoning. Gathering dice is in step 2. Transforming your blues into reds happens before this, in step 1. This is where you declare the target.

24 minutes ago, Green Knight said:

Ta-da: You can shoot at long range!!!

Edit: If you need more reasoning. Gathering dice is in step 2. Transforming your blues into reds happens before this, in step 1. This is where you declare the target.

This is the problem. "Before step 2 (roll attack dice, here)" is not "during step 1 (declare target, here)." It's not even "after step 1." It's after "after step 1."

You have already checked your range before converting to red armament.

The timing window on this card is poor but fully compatible with the rules, and should be errata'd.

4 hours ago, Tayloraj100 said:

Why would it allow you to flack at long range? It lets you replace blue dice with red dice — blue dice normally don’t go past medium.

8 minutes ago, The Jabbawookie said:

This is the problem. "Before step 2 (roll attack dice, here)" is not "during step 1 (declare target, here)." It's not even "after step 1." It's after "after step 1."

You have already checked your range before converting to red armament.

The timing window on this card is poor but fully compatible with the rules, and should be errata'd.

How about this scenario:

Consider the Starhawk Mark II. Red and blue flak dice, and a Turbolaser slot. Declare your squad target, if the squadron is at long range, replace that blue with a red, and now you can flak all squads at long range with two red dice. Rinse and repeat for all unengaged enemy squads at long range in that arc.

It works because it has red/blue flak. You CAN declare a squad at long range. I'm not saying it's good, but it works, right?

14 minutes ago, Bertie Wooster said:

How about this scenario:

Consider the Starhawk Mark II. Red and blue flak dice, and a Turbolaser slot. Declare your squad target, if the squadron is at long range, replace that blue with a red, and now you can flak all squads at long range with two red dice. Rinse and repeat for all unengaged enemy squads at long range in that arc.

It works because it has red/blue flak. You CAN declare a squad at long range. I'm not saying it's good, but it works, right?

I believe that should work, yes.

Edit: and for clarity, it works because your attack has not already failed by not meeting range requirements.

9 minutes ago, Bertie Wooster said:

How about this scenario:

Consider the Starhawk Mark II. Red and blue flak dice, and a Turbolaser slot. Declare your squad target, if the squadron is at long range, replace that blue with a red, and now you can flak all squads at long range with two red dice. Rinse and repeat for all unengaged enemy squads at long range in that arc.

It works because it has red/blue flak. You CAN declare a squad at long range. I'm not saying it's good, but it works, right?

Nah. It either works like Green Knight thinks and makes your AA battery red OR it just lets you change the dice once you are making the attacks. There’s, like, 2 ships that would be able to use it at all if you have to already have a red flack die in order to change a blue to a red and gain another die at long range.

I can see what Green Knight is saying, though it wasn’t obvious to me from the card text or from the arguments being made about it. Frankly, if it works like that, it sounds a lot better.

I think it will let the ship to attack at long range, because it uses the following words: "before you gather dice". Otherwise, if it would just let you to swap the blue ones to red ones at medium range, it would simply use the word replace, right? Like on the Sato card.

5 hours ago, Tayloraj100 said:

Nah. It either works like Green Knight thinks and makes your AA battery red OR it just lets you change the dice once you are making the attacks.

The specific reasoning behind this is important. Before HFZ, and well before gathering attack dice, you check range. And at this point it’s a binary question: can an attack be made at this range or not?

If the answer is no, the attack ends, HFZ never got the change to trigger.

If the answer is yes, HFZ turns your blues into reds. And then you gather attack dice appropriate to the range from which you’re attacking. All your dice are red by now, which means they’re eligible to be used at long range. Double red flak on the Starhawk or SSD is possible.

7 hours ago, Green Knight said:

If you want to quote the rules, then quote the rules, do not paraphrase.

The reason squadrons attack at distance 1, is because the following:

Attack
To perform an attack with a squadron or ship, resolve the
following steps:

1. Declare Target: The attacker declares the defender and
the attacking hull zone, if any. If the defender is a ship,
the attacker declares the defending hull zone. Measure
line of sight to the defender to ensure the attack is
possible and to determine if it is obstructed.
◊◊ If the attacker is a ship, the defending squadron or hull
zone must be inside the attacking hull zone’s firing arc
and at attack range of the attacking hull zone.
◊◊ If the attacker is a squadron, the defending squadron
or hull zone must be at distance 1.

Assuming a ship (since we're talking Heavy Fire Zone here), we use the range ruler, and the range ruler tells us red dice attack at Long range:

2. Roll Attack Dice: Gather attack dice to form the attack
pool and roll those dice. Gather only the dice that are
appropriate for the range of the attack as indicated by
the icons on the range ruler.
◊◊ If the defender is a ship, gather the attack dice
indicated in the attacking hull zone’s or squadron’s
battery armament.
◊◊ If the defender is a squadron, gather the attack dice
indicated in the attacker’s anti-squadron armament.
◊◊ If the attacker cannot gather any dice appropriate for
the range of the attack, the attack is canceled.

As for attack range, we have this:

Attack Range
Attack range is the range at which a squadron or a ship’s
hull zone can perform an attack as determined by the
armament it is using.
• A hull zone’s maximum attack range is close range if it
has only black dice in its armament, medium range if it
has at least one blue die, or long range if it has at least
one red die.
• Each squadron’s attack range is distance 1.

And finally the card itself:

Here we can clearly see that you replace the blue dice in your anti-squadron ARMAMENT with red dice. This happens before you roll any dice. Red dice in anti-squadron ARMAMENT.

And what happens when you have red dice in your AS armament?

Ta-da: You can shoot at long range!!!

Edit: If you need more reasoning. Gathering dice is in step 2. Transforming your blues into reds happens before this, in step 1. This is where you declare the target.

Here's the thing, those bullet points are not steps, they are clarifiers.

"◊ If the attacker is a ship, the defending squadron or hull zone must be inside the attacking hull zone’s firing arc and at attack range of the attacking hull zone."

"◊ If the attacker is a squadron, the defending squadron or hull zone must be at distance 1."

These clarifiers are not telling you things to do during step 1, they are telling you extra information you need to know in order to perform the attack, things to keep in mind. However, for Step 1 you are declaring the defender / attacking hull zone, then checking Line of Sight to "to determine if the attack is possible" and if it is obstructed. You are not measuring attack range.

This is the only clarification in Line of Sight for whether or not an attack is possible in the rules reference, however dust fields add another one, also with bullet points.

"• If line of sight or attack range is traced through a hull zone on the defender that is not the defending hull zone, the attacker does not have line of sight and must choose another target."

"A ship that traces line of sight across a dust field while attacking a ship or squadron cannot perform that attack (but may declare another target)..."

In Step 2, Roll Attack Dice, is where you measure range and determine armaments.

"2. Roll Attack Dice: Gather attack dice to form the attack pool and roll those dice. Gather only the dice that are appropriate for the range of the attack as indicated by the icons on the range ruler."

This is where attack range would cancel an attack, if the hull zone does not have an appropriate attack range (lacks the longer range dice) or if it was a squadron attacker. Or if attack range is traced through a different hull zone of the defender. Blue dice in an anti-squadron armament is swapped for Red before this step.

Examples of bulletpoints acting as clarifiers in other multi-step processes:

Quote

SHIP MOVEMENT

2. Move Ship: Place the maneuver tool on the play area
and insert the guides of the first segment into the
notches on one side of the front of the ship’s base. Then
slide the ship away from the guides on the first segment
and place the ship by sliding its notches over the
guides on the joint that corresponds to the ship’s speed.

• The maneuver tool can be placed on the play area and manipulated freely during the “Determine Course” step.

Did I ever tell you folks about how Thrawn keeps your flagship from activating the first turn he is used, and every other ship from activating after? And yet, no one would actually argue that in an actual tournament setting and expect it to work.

TL:DR - Blue Dice to Red Dice at Long Range = YES

3 hours ago, BiggsIRL said:

Here's the thing, those bullet points are not steps, they are clarifiers.

"◊ If the attacker is a ship, the defending squadron or hull zone must be inside the attacking hull zone’s firing arc and at attack range of the attacking hull zone."

"◊ If the attacker is a squadron, the defending squadron or hull zone must be at distance 1."

These clarifiers are not telling you things to do during step 1, they are telling you extra information you need to know in order to perform the attack, things to keep in mind. However, for Step 1 you are declaring the defender / attacking hull zone, then checking Line of Sight to "to determine if the attack is possible" and if it is obstructed. You are not measuring attack range.

This is the only clarification in Line of Sight for whether or not an attack is possible in the rules reference, however dust fields add another one, also with bullet points.

"• If line of sight or attack range is traced through a hull zone on the defender that is not the defending hull zone, the attacker does not have line of sight and must choose another target."

"A ship that traces line of sight across a dust field while attacking a ship or squadron cannot perform that attack (but may declare another target)..."

In Step 2, Roll Attack Dice, is where you measure range and determine armaments.

"2. Roll Attack Dice: Gather attack dice to form the attack pool and roll those dice. Gather only the dice that are appropriate for the range of the attack as indicated by the icons on the range ruler."

This is where attack range would cancel an attack, if the hull zone does not have an appropriate attack range (lacks the longer range dice) or if it was a squadron attacker. Or if attack range is traced through a different hull zone of the defender. Blue dice in an anti-squadron armament is swapped for Red before this step.

Examples of bulletpoints acting as clarifiers in other multi-step processes:

Did I ever tell you folks about how Thrawn keeps your flagship from activating the first turn he is used, and every other ship from activating after? And yet, no one would actually argue that in an actual tournament setting and expect it to work.

THANK YOU! This explanation makes perfect sense.