6 minutes ago, KungFuFerret said:

Again, there is no actual basis for the Force having a will, or agency of it's own, in the material made by Lucas. It's only until later creators start giving it more overt religious, and godlike traits. I mean a lot of the verbage, just replace the word Force, with god, and it sounds no different than any religious nonsense being spouted by people in real life.

I would disagree. The Force is far more active and alive in the Clone Wars series, which was produced under the direct supervision of George Lucas. Dave Filoni, in interviews, states pretty clearly that his understanding of the Cosmic and Living Force comes straight from Lucas. The Cosmic Force is that power of Destiny, and Destiny is the Will of the Force.

We see this with both the Mortis arc and Yoda's vision quest at the very end of Clone Wars. Yoda is chosen to undertake a vision quest, so he might preserve his consciousness after death, as a way to allow the Jedi to survive the destruction of the Order.

And while Lucas may not have produced Rebels, it was produced by Dave Filoni, who is generally regarded as Lucas's padawan. And, well... The Bendu would like to have a word about the Will of the Force.

Then Lucas apparently changed his mind about how the Force should be represented, and is even more foolish for doing so. Giving the Force a will is a terrible idea, because it basically just makes it god and the devil as one thing. And there is already enough crap about supernatural beings with agendas moving human pawns around for their own reasons in the world. I'd rather it not be in Star Wars too. The Force is much better as just a simple energy field, that people can manipulate, that reacts to, and responds to emotions in the weilder, instead of a literal embodiment of the devil trying to tempt people, and a theoretically benevolent being on the other end.

3 minutes ago, KungFuFerret said:

Then Lucas apparently changed his mind about how the Force should be represented, and is even more foolish for doing so. Giving the Force a will is a terrible idea, because it basically just makes it god and the devil as one thing. And there is already enough crap about supernatural beings with agendas moving human pawns around for their own reasons in the world. I'd rather it not be in Star Wars too. The Force is much better as just a simple energy field, that people can manipulate, that reacts to, and responds to emotions in the weilder, instead of a literal embodiment of the devil trying to tempt people, and a theoretically benevolent being on the other end.

I thoroughly disagree. But that's partly because I don't think of it as just "God and Satan."

Star Wars is like the Iliad or Odyssey. When Jedi and Sith meet on the battlefield, their fates are weighed in the balance. All lightsaber duels become a metaphor for moral conflict. Yoda never teaches Luke about swinging a lightsaber. Instead, he teaches Luke self-knowledge, discipline, and inner peace. Luke doesn't become a Jedi by besting Vader in swordplay. He becomes a Jedi by casting down his weapon and denying hate.

If the Force is just a toolbox, a thing to be used, then it reduces Star Wars to an action movie with some fortune cookie wisdom. The Force does not predetermine all things - the future is always in motion, as Yoda says - but it does bind destinies together. Vader, Yoda, Obi-Wan - all of them speak of Destiny in the Original trilogy. Luke must confront Vader. The Force Wills it. But whether he succeeds or fails depends on whether he gives in to hate, or rises above it.

29 minutes ago, abookfulblockhead said:

I thoroughly disagree. But that's partly because I don't think of it as just "God and Satan."

Star Wars is like the Iliad or Odyssey. When Jedi and Sith meet on the battlefield, their fates are weighed in the balance. All lightsaber duels become a metaphor for moral conflict. Yoda never teaches Luke about swinging a lightsaber. Instead, he teaches Luke self-knowledge, discipline, and inner peace. Luke doesn't become a Jedi by besting Vader in swordplay. He becomes a Jedi by casting down his weapon and denying hate.

If the Force is just a toolbox, a thing to be used, then it reduces Star Wars to an action movie with some fortune cookie wisdom. The Force does not predetermine all things - the future is always in motion, as Yoda says - but it does bind destinies together. Vader, Yoda, Obi-Wan - all of them speak of Destiny in the Original trilogy. Luke must confront Vader. The Force Wills it. But whether he succeeds or fails depends on whether he gives in to hate, or rises above it.

You can't have Fate without predetermination. They are intrinsically linked. That's what destiny and fate are, predetermined outcomes.

And I hate to break it to you, but Star Wars IS just an action movie with fortune cookie wisdom. It's inception was a white guy from California film school, in the hippy days of the 60s, mooshing together eastern philosophies that he had a cursory familiarity with, and smooshing it with New Age drug culture and post-war political views on conflict. So yeah, it IS fortune cookie wisdom. The fact that fans have tried to "make it serious" in the ensuing decades, doesn't negate what it was when it was first made. A silly romp of a Flash Gordon spin off idea, with some hokey religion stuff tossed into it to spice it up a bit for the audience.

18 minutes ago, KungFuFerret said:

You can't have Fate without predetermination. They are intrinsically linked. That's what destiny and fate are, predetermined outcomes.

And I hate to break it to you, but Star Wars IS just an action movie with fortune cookie wisdom. It's inception was a white guy from California film school, in the hippy days of the 60s, mooshing together eastern philosophies that he had a cursory familiarity with, and smooshing it with New Age drug culture and post-war political views on conflict. So yeah, it IS fortune cookie wisdom. The fact that fans have tried to "make it serious" in the ensuing decades, doesn't negate what it was when it was first made. A silly romp of a Flash Gordon spin off idea, with some hokey religion stuff tossed into it to spice it up a bit for the audience.

I dunno. I don't think Star Wars would have held up nearly so well if it was as simple as that. The fact that fans take it seriously is a testament to the fact that it has substance worth discussing.

Me, I like talking theme. Morality, Mysticism, Destiny. That's the stuff of Greek epics, and I feel like Star Wars is at its best when it resonates with those same themes.

The Force having a will had been established right from the beginning in ANH. For instance, when Obi Wan is training Luke on the Millennium Falcon, Luke asks him if the Force controls your actions, which Obi Wan confirms that it does, at least partially, though it also obeys your commands. The fact that the Force can control a person to a degree denotes an active will. Further, in TPM, Qui Gon tells Anakin that the Midichlorians (love them or hate them) constantly communicate with a Jedi telling him the will of the Force. He explicitly states that the Force has a will.

13 hours ago, KungFuFerret said:

You can't have Fate without predetermination.

Sure you can. Forces - internal or external - pushing you along a certain path, even though you still have choices to make. Do you resist? Do you go along with fate?

Not hugely invested in the nits; but the Dark side is very deliberately everything that the force isn't. It's abuse of power, induldging base desires and, it can be inferred, the complete defiance of fate. Anaikin wasn't intended to join the Dark side, he was intended to strike down the Emperor before he seized power, but he allowed the dark side to ensnare him and refused that call to destiny, only to be offered an opportunity to correct that mistake nearly 25 years later in the Emperor's Throne room, witnessing his own son being tortured in the same way Mace was.

Of course, part of that was due to Luca's making the PT resemble situations in the OT and honestly, I don't buy this nonsense of a 9 part saga. The movies are causal popcorn crunches and while I take the lore seriously enough for table top gaming (e.g. How to influence, or play a part, or avoid) I don't take it seriously enough to debate. The force in the OT is hinted at only by inference, thus doesn't really have an identity beyond "the good guys use in and the bad guys use magic in bad way.", in the same way that most fantasy stories of the time was basically swords and sorcery. The Force in the PT largely amounted to Asian kung fu magic and throwing objects, and the ST eventually turned to out and out wizardry with a healthy subdose of destiny and linages, which in all honesty I could believe Lucas would done if he had budget back in the day. That's all there is to it, movie magic and inventing stuff as you go along to feed a bunch of addicts. XD

2 hours ago, LordBritish said:

I don't buy this nonsense of a 9 part saga.

I don't think he had a fully conceived 9-part Saga in mind when he made the first movie, but by the time he was wrapping up RotJ he was saying he did. Over the years he talked about it some in interviews and there have been a few shots of his notebook. Its pretty clear that the "9-Part saga" only really existed as rough high-level production notes. He was on record saying that the prequels would take place 20 years before the OT and the sequels would take place 20 years afterwards... not 35. He had started to flesh out Episode VII and he have some snippets of what he might have done, but Disney tossed his ideas out for an Abram's special.

For a Force User who is a religious person, the Force will be seen as having a will and being able to dictate his / her actions. For such person the Lightside will be the only Force and the Darkside only a corruption, if he / she is likely minded with the Jedi. Or if he / she is more likely minded with the Sith, there's two side of the Force a light and a dark and one makes you stronger and more powerful.

For a Force User who is an atheist, the Force is only an energy field you can use, that can be influenced by the feelings and emotions of the user when he / she uses it. And with a feedback effect how the use uses the Force will influence his / her emotions and feelings. If you're fuelling your Force's use with negative emotions, it's called the Darkside of the Force. If you're fuelling your Force's use with positive emotions, it's called the Lightside. And if you're fuelling your Force's use with neutral emotions, it isn't called the Greyside because some people on this forum can't accept the concept of a Force that isn't black & white and only that. 😉 😋

Actually it works for a religious Force user who doesn't believe in Manichean / black & white thinking. Someone who understand that there's a darkside and a lightside and many shades of greyside in each people and the Force as a mystical energy should reflect that. That the will of the Force express itself differently for each Force user because each one is a unique people and each one feels the Force uniquely. Someone who can view the Force in a religious / mystical way without being dogmatic about it. The complete opposite of a Jedi and a Sith.

On 12/31/2019 at 3:07 PM, KungFuFerret said:

Again, there is no actual basis for the Force having a will, or agency of it's own, in the material made by Lucas.

TrampGraphics is correct on this, from the earliest onset of the trilogy, the concept of the Force having a Will is present. The "Will of the Force" is a line in the Phantom Menace which was written and directed by Lucas himself.

On 12/31/2019 at 3:07 PM, KungFuFerret said:

It's only until later creators start giving it more overt religious, and godlike traits. I mean a lot of the verbage, just replace the word Force, with god, and it sounds no different than any religious nonsense being spouted by people in real life.

Firstly, George was the one that gave Anakin a Jesus narrative, don't put that evil on anyone else, Ricky Bobby. To be honest though, having a will doesn't make it a sentient deity. Just because something isn't classically sentient as we consider sentience by no means precludes the possibility of it having a Will. By point of fact, the definition of Will (according to Oxford) is "the faculty by which a person decides on and initiates action," with further specialized uses as "control deliberately exerted to do something or to restrain one's own impulses," "a deliberate or fixed desire or intention," and "the thing that one desires or ordains." Only one of those definitions (control deliberately exerted) irrefutably requires classical sentience, and barring the first's use of "person," it can be applied to anything. I would discount that use of person, as "personhood" has been applied to corporations, and if that can occur, then I personally feel that person is a cheap and liberally applied title. In fact, if we take the very name of what is exerting this "will" upon the universe, the Force, and mentally apply the definitions of will to Forces we know about, for instance, gravity, then isn't it accurate to say than an apple that falls from the tree towards the ground is following the "will of gravity?" When we think of the words of Qui-Gon about listening to the will of the Force, and how some can and others can't, it's just as true for gravity as it is for the Force. Everyone is affected by gravity, but only a few can apply physics to use gravity to achieve the landing of a probe on Mars, or design a plane that allows flight. Merely because we see gravity as a Force, and don't call it a Will, doesn't mean that it isn't something that it does not "decide on and initiate action" through the alignment of obstacles, thickness of intervening conveyance material, path of trajectory, and release of supporting material, with the former being what "decides" the action and the last being what initiates it. Gravity is a "deliberate or fixed intention" event if it isn't a desire (important to notice the 'or' in the definition there), and the falling of the apple is most certainly an ordainment of the force of gravity.

On 12/31/2019 at 3:07 PM, KungFuFerret said:

Your above quoted line implies that the Force has always had some "will", despite none of the original material supporting such a take on the Force. It is in fact, implied it is a mindless energy field, which makes things a lot less morally complicated about it.

Again, the "original material" according to Obi-Wan "guides your actions" and "obeys your commands." That doesn't sound like something without a will, especially as I've argued in the previous section. The fact that it is "an energy field" as describe as Obi-Wan doesn't preclude it having a will, nor does it imply it is mindless, as you contend. As for morality, morality is a set of standards that an individual enforces on something else. Five people read the same holy text, you're going to find that you have five different opinions of what is allowed by the text and not. It doesn't have to be a holy-text, either, it can be a rule, law, regulation.... anything really. Morality is something that an individual has and dictates onto the world around them, and is unique product of human intelligence. The trick here is that a human can observe anything else in universe and apply morality to it's actions - it doesn't mean those actions were taken for that reason, it's just how we're wired.

On 12/31/2019 at 3:07 PM, KungFuFerret said:

If it's just an energy field, with positive and negative traits, and the people USING it are where the applications of it come in, it's far easier to use, without accidentally making some unfortunate comparisons to bad ideas in philosophy and morality.

That's not true at all ... there can be inherently destructive forces and inherently creative ones. Now, the moral implications of which is "bad" and which is "good" is a product (again) of human assignment, but it doesn't mean they aren't inherently there. The Dark Side being a force of exclusion and destruction that will eventually result in the total annihilation of the universe can absolutely be a thing without having morality to get involved. The Jedi then deciding that using this ridiculously destructive and damaging Force through either the hubris that you can control or the ignorance of it's potential is something they are going to work against if perfectly reasonable and doesn't need a "religious" reasoning, merely one of self preservation.

The force is an unknown construct. We don't actually know how it works. It very much like religion.

One person says God determines all. Another says we have free will, but God exists. Another doesn't believe in god, but believes in fate and destiny. Another doesn't believe in god, fate, or destiny. Another believes that behavioral psychology can predict every action a person takes and that we don't have free will but we also don't have destinies. Etc...

The force is much the same. The Jedi view it one way. The Sith view it another. People attuned with the force that don't follow the Jedi or the Sith view it another. People not attuned with the force view it another. Etc...

Fact of the matter is, we don't know. Even in canon sources the power and influence of the force varies. It, like religion, is what you make of it. Most of our 'sources' for the force are from Jedi Masters. It's like only asking Catholic Priests if God exists and how much influence he has on our lives. Of course all your answers are going to be pretty darn similar, they were all taught the same thing and follow the same teachings.

1 hour ago, kmanweiss said:

The force is an unknown construct. We don't actually know how it works. It very much like religion.

One person says God determines all. Another says we have free will, but God exists. Another doesn't believe in god, but believes in fate and destiny. Another doesn't believe in god, fate, or destiny. Another believes that behavioral psychology can predict every action a person takes and that we don't have free will but we also don't have destinies. Etc...

The force is much the same. The Jedi view it one way. The Sith view it another. People attuned with the force that don't follow the Jedi or the Sith view it another. People not attuned with the force view it another. Etc...

Fact of the matter is, we don't know. Even in canon sources the power and influence of the force varies. It, like religion, is what you make of it. Most of our 'sources' for the force are from Jedi Masters. It's like only asking Catholic Priests if God exists and how much influence he has on our lives. Of course all your answers are going to be pretty darn similar, they were all taught the same thing and follow the same teachings.

And, even within Orthodox branches of real word religions you often end up with a healthy ongoing discussion and debate over religious principles and beliefs, as well as various movements and streams that emerge, run their course, and are eventually either homogenized into the whole or die out.

The Orthodox Jewish world has numerous distinct ethnic customs, exegetical lenses, and even dogmatic theologies both competing and coexisting at any given time. Notable examples would be the kabbalistic and hassidic movements, which are very intellectually and philosophically distinct from the traditional talmudic-halachic mainstream. In the Orthodox christian world you have the once controversial Hesychast movement, which was ultimately mediated and absorbed into the whole. And, in the Muslim world you have the Sufis, let alone differences between Shia, Sunni, Wahabi, etc.

To me, a thousand generations of Jedi can't possibly have operated as a monolithic unchanging hive-mind. There would have to have been various philosophical movements and discussions about the nature of the Force over the course of the Order's lifespan. To me, someone like Qui-Gonn with his belief in "The Living Force" is just more of a mystic than a dogmatist... like a Kabbalist, or Hesychast, or Sufi. A Jedi who sees shades of grey, or interprets the nature of the Force with more nuance, isn't necessarily grey themselves.

They just have "a certain point of view."

The Force not having religious traits, when Vader gets dunked on for being religious in the very first movie. Right.

54 minutes ago, Stan Fresh said:

The Force not having religious traits, when Vader gets dunked on for being religious in the very first movie. Right.

The distinction is between the Force and those who are experiencing it. The Jedi and Sith have developed religions surrounding their experience of the Force. The Force itself? It appears greater than the sum of its parts and transcends the individual's finite capacity to perceive or quantify it with mere cognition. Religion is a finite point of view on the infinite, and... You'll find that many of the truths we hold to depend greatly on our point of view.

Well, WELL before the Prequels ever came out, I remember seeing a Star Wars special with George Lucas saying, and I quote to the best of my misty memory:

"The Force is basically boiling religion down to its most fundamental aspect, that of some "force" that guides our destiny."

Okay, my memory really failed me on the last part, but I clearly remember "boiling down religion to its most fundamental aspect." In that light, yes, the Force is God in A Galaxy Far Far Away.

To get greatly philosophical, Free Will and Prophecy (not necessarily predestination) can coexist in a few ways. One I thought about when. . . uh. . . um. . . okay, when watching the second Matrix movie the first time, I said it, happy? Anyway, the bit where Neo has the choice between saving all humanity or saving Trinity. . . well, Neo being Neo, of course he was going to choose her. There was no other choice he could make. Was he predestined to make that choice? No. He could have chosen differently. . . but he wasn't going to, because he wasn't the kind of guy who could choose to let the woman he loves dies. But that choice was easy to see coming, especially for self-aware computer programs for whom calculating the future is their function (like, say, The Oracle).

A harder one to wrap your brain around was suggested by a friend of mine. But consider: If an omnipotent, omniscient entity exists, it must exist outside what we perceive as time. Therefore, it can see all of time at once. Therefore, while we have Free Will, because it exists outside time, it sees the choices we have already made. That sounds contradictory, but it isn't. Roll it around in your head a bit, you'll get it. Or a Scanners -level headache.

But, yes, Force Healing abilities have existed well before in Legends . Whether it's Force Healing or Transfer Essence or Essence Transfer or Force Drain or Dark Transfer or several others I can't recall, it's been there. Just not visible onscreen. Until now.

17 minutes ago, ErikModi said:

A harder one to wrap your brain around was suggested by a friend of mine. But consider: If an omnipotent, omniscient entity exists, it must exist outside what we perceive as time. Therefore, it can see all of time at once. Therefore, while we have Free Will, because it exists outside time, it sees the choices we have already made. That sounds contradictory, but it isn't. Roll it around in your head a bit, you'll get it. Or a Scanners -level headache.

The only way free will exists in this situation is if this entity is also watching an infinite number of timelines of all the alternate, different choices we could have made. And that's a really big if.

Just now, micheldebruyn said:

The only way free will exists in this situation is if this entity is also watching an infinite number of timelines of all the alternate, different choices we could have made. And that's a really big if.

Or those realities have different entities that also exist outside what we perceive as time. . . (head asplode)

Well the Force per the mortis arc is 3 entities that dont exactly get along...

On 1/5/2020 at 10:39 PM, Daeglan said:

Well the Force per the mortis arc is 3 entities that dont exactly get along...

That is not self-evident from the episodes themselves. The three entities could very easily be interpreted as merely being expressions / manifestations of the Force and the paths and choices it presents as opposed to being the Force itself. Further, that entire arc has a strong "vision quest" aspect to it. In other words, those three entities could be interpreted as being manifestations of the infinite Force as perceived by inherently limited,Force sensitives. In other words, not even Jedi Masters like Yoda or Qui-Gonn can fully apprehend the limitless Force and have to shoehorn it into relatable representative personifications to make sense of what they are experiencing. One could take those episodes at face value, but that introduces an incoherence into previous "teachings" about the Force we are given in the films and shows, and doesn't strike me as a satisfying critical interpretation of the arc.

26 minutes ago, Vondy said:

That is not self-evident from the episodes themselves. The three entities could very easily be interpreted as merely being expressions / manifestations of the Force and the paths and choices it presents as opposed to being the Force itself. Further, that entire arc has a strong "vision quest" aspect to it. In other words, those three entities could be interpreted as being manifestations of the infinite Force as perceived by inherently limited,Force sensitives. In other words, not even Jedi Masters like Yoda or Qui-Gonn can fully apprehend the limitless Force and have to shoehorn it into relatable representative personifications to make sense of what they are experiencing. One could take those episodes at face value, but that introduces an incoherence into previous "teachings" about the Force we are given in the films and shows, and doesn't strike me as a satisfying critical interpretation of the arc.

Even if it is one infinite entity tt still implies it has a will. even if that will conflicts with itself...

On 12/24/2019 at 11:50 PM, Donovan Morningfire said:

With regards to Ben, it was my impression that he was pretty much running on fumes at that point, and spent what little life energy he had left to pull Rey back from death, doing what his grandfather couldn't and save the one he loved. It's my guess that doing a full-blown resurrection would probably have taken a toll on a perfectly hale and hearty Ben Solo, though likely not a lethal one.

Nah, I would say, although Ben had returned from the Dark Side narratively, rules-wise his morality was still way below 70. Therefore he simply couldn't use the heal part of the Heal/Harm-Force power. Unfortunately, after his rise from the pit (" The Rise of Skywalker ") there was no one left but himself who he could kill with the harm-power in order to restore Rey's life... 🧐 And Rey on the other hand couldn't heal Kylo afterwards because she already used the power earlier in the same session... 😢

JJ simply followed the FFG rules...

😃

1 hour ago, Daeglan said:

Even if it is one infinite entity tt still implies it has a will. even if that will conflicts with itself...

Only "from a certain point of view."

On 12/24/2019 at 11:50 PM, Donovan Morningfire said:

With regards to Ben, it was my impression that he was pretty much running on fumes at that point, and spent what little life energy he had left to pull Rey back from death, doing what his grandfather couldn't and save the one he loved.

That is quite a poetic interpretation as he finished what his grandfather started - from a certain point of view.