8 hours ago, Lyynark said:

Remember that the double tap comes at the cost of actually purchasing a cannon upgrade and that you must have a lock on the enemy (which you cannot spend on the first or second attack). It's very much reined in since the B-wing has no native action economy that allows it to get both TL and focus.

I'd wager that this will become a 0-cost upgrade and that Braylen and Ten gets a small point increase since they thrive when stressed and the S-foils allows them more opportunities to get that stress. All the other ships (which see no play at all today) have no reason for a cost increase.

It won't. There is a rumor cursing around that they will be an optional upgrade going for 13 points. I don't have it from an official source, but a trusted one when it comes to such. It would be insane if they were for no additional cost. New actions, new linked combinations and reload to boot. Just no man. Not even a 5 point is enough to excuse the double tap potential.

Snap Shot costs 7 on them, is range 2 only and you cannot mod the dice.

Stabilized S-Foils is any range you can cover, allows you to mod your dice as much as you like and can and can be triggered of any form of attack. It's not primary attack, its just attack. You can Jaming Beam into Autoblasters. You can Autoblasters into Heavy Laser Cannon. You can Ion Cannon into Autoblasters. You can Tractor Beam into whatever. Most of all... You can Advanced Proton Torpedoes into Autoblasters.

Conssidering the fact, that Rebels have access to "Dutch" who spreads free Locks, not Lock Actions, mind you. I think that the S-Foils turn B-Wings from decent to amazing with just this one upgrade. Given you have to slap at least 2 additional points for it to be relevant, but even then... You can strip tokens with Jamming Beam to follow up with Autoblasters or Heavy Laser Cannon for lots of pain. Want to troll the enemy? Do a Tractor Beam followed with Ion Cannon. Then just use the B-Wings superior mobility to sit on his tail endlessly.

I cannot stop being utterly bamboozled, how powerful this double-tap is. It's not Primary > Turret from VTG. It ain't even Focus > Turret from Bistan, which on itself is powerful and costs 14. It is same target, any attack, just requires you to have lock on the enemy. Which you have lots of options to gain.

1 hour ago, Schanez said:

It won't. There is a rumor cursing around that they will be an optional upgrade going for 13 points. I don't have it from an official source, but a trusted one when it comes to such. It would be insane if they were for no additional cost. New actions, new linked combinations and reload to boot. Just no man. Not even a 5 point is enough to excuse the double tap potential.

13 guarantees it will never, ever be used. No one's saying that B-Wings with foils should cost the same as B-Wings do now; that would be patently absurd. We're expecting something more like:

Blue Squadron Pilot - 45

Blade Squadron Ace - 47

Braylen Stramm - 54

Ten Numb - 55

Gina Moonsong - 57

Stabilized S-Foils - 0

More or less. This allows the Foil + Pilot combo to be priced appropriately, and it means we'll never see phony B-Wings buzzing around pretending to be something they're not. These foils are inherent to the B-Wing chassis. I will be very disappointed to see them as an optional upgrade. Here's hoping your source is dead wrong.

On 12/24/2019 at 7:19 AM, Schanez said:

As an aspiring Rebel rookie, I am extremely interested in Gina as well as Falcon Leia. Gina with Ten should work bonkers. Slap Ten with S-Foils, Predator, FCS Tractor Beam and HLC/Autos. He can do a Roll > Red Lock into Bullseye. Then get a Stress from Gina. He can then use Tractor Beam to drag enemy into Bullseye, if necessary, drop their defence dice by one and then spend the lock to blap them with HLC or Autoblasters. FCS and Predator hopefully ensure he has double mods on both attacks, given the second is just one reroll and a focustress.

Predator only works on Primary attacks, so no go.

Try FCS as it works on your first attack at least, and you can use the stress or focus on your second. A double-modded attack followed up by a single-modded attack is still nothing to sneeze at. Definitely agree Dutch will be awesome with these guys. I might even be tempted to reach for Bodhi.

12 hours ago, ClassicalMoser said:

13 guarantees it will never, ever be used. No one's saying that B-Wings with foils should cost the same as B-Wings do now; that would be patently absurd. We're expecting something more like:

Blue Squadron Pilot - 45

Blade Squadron Ace - 47

Braylen Stramm - 54

Ten Numb - 55

Gina Moonsong - 57

Stabilized S-Foils - 0

More or less. This allows the Foil + Pilot combo to be priced appropriately, and it means we'll never see phony B-Wings buzzing around pretending to be something they're not. These foils are inherent to the B-Wing chassis. I will be very disappointed to see them as an optional upgrade. Here's hoping your source is dead wrong.

Ten is 48 now, Braylen is 51. Is there a reason you think their price will look like this or is it a rough estimate?

And I do not think 13 is that high. Most double-taps are expensive. From the top of my head:

• Veteran Tail Gunner - 7 points, can only shoot after a primary front attack and only in primary back attack
• Vetean Turret Gunner - 8 points, can only shoot after a primary attack and only from a turret, bonus is you can target the same ship
• Bistan - 14 points, can only shoot if you have a Focus Token which more or less means, you want to run it with Perceptive Copilot at all times, you also have to use turret attack and have to target two different enemies
• Han Solo (gunner) - 14 points, can shoot at I7 but requires a turret attack and blocks that turret arc for the engagement
• Darth Maul (pilot) - have to burn two out of three Force Charges to perform a bonus attack, either on the same target, if you missed or another one, if you hit

Now Stabilized S-Foils for B-Wings give you:

• three new action options, that being Red Reload, B-Roll > Red Lock, B-Roll > Red Evade; two of those actions they had no access to without them;
• allows them after they perform any attack to burn a Lock to perform bonus Cannon Attack against the same target;

I am quite certain it is worth at least 13 points. If its any lower, its extremely unbalanced.

PS. I do not wish to pass as offensive or aggressive. I have been told, I can seem like this from my way of typing, hence the explanation. Friendly exchange of opinions is all I am here for

46 minutes ago, Schanez said:

Ten is 48 now, Braylen is 51. Is there a reason you think their price will look like this or is it a rough estimate?

And I do not think 13 is that high. Most double-taps are expensive. From the top of my head:

• Veteran Tail Gunner - 7 points, can only shoot after a primary front attack and only in primary back attack
• Vetean Turret Gunner - 8 points, can only shoot after a primary attack and only from a turret, bonus is you can target the same ship
• Bistan - 14 points, can only shoot if you have a Focus Token which more or less means, you want to run it with Perceptive Copilot at all times, you also have to use turret attack and have to target two different enemies
• Han Solo (gunner) - 14 points, can shoot at I7 but requires a turret attack and blocks that turret arc for the engagement
• Darth Maul (pilot) - have to burn two out of three Force Charges to perform a bonus attack, either on the same target, if you missed or another one, if you hit

Now Stabilized S-Foils for B-Wings give you:

• three new action options, that being Red Reload, B-Roll > Red Lock, B-Roll > Red Evade; two of those actions they had no access to without them;
• allows them after they perform any attack to burn a Lock to perform bonus Cannon Attack against the same target;

I am quite certain it is worth at least 13 points. If its any lower, its extremely unbalanced.

PS. I do not wish to pass as offensive or aggressive. I have been told, I can seem like this from my way of typing, hence the explanation. Friendly exchange of opinions is all I am here for

I really really hope they price this well. The double attack will be extremly strong. I played D-Defenders in 1.0 and I know what I am talking about. Vessery with Tie-D title was sick.

With FCS the B-Wings will even have mods on both attacks (just 1 reroll with each attack - but thats great).

My guess would be 8 points for the new s-foils . At least.

Just now, beardxofxdeath said:

I really really hope they price this well. The double attack will be extremly strong. I played D-Defenders in 1.0 and I know what I am talking about. Vessery with Tie-D title was sick.

With FCS the B-Wings will even have mods on both attacks (just 1 reroll with each attack - but thats great).

My guess would be 8 points for the new s-foils . At least.

They burn the Lock to perform second attack, so FCS will not trigger there. Braylen can reroll up to two on each attack, which I think will make him the best S-Foils user there will be. Roll into Red Lock for two attacks, out of which both have two rerolls. Or you can Focus > Red Roll and get Lock from Dutch.

Veteran Turret Gunner is the closest comparison I think. The key difference is that there is no Lock requirement for the 2nd shot. (So far not as good)

Turrets and Cannons are similar in that they both have either caps on their damage or limits on arc and range. The caveat is that Jamming Beam and Tractor Beam as an attack is helpful for future shots (Pretty similar in terms of effect unless on high initiative)

Unless you bring another ship to provide action economy then your only modifiers come from Fire Control System or pilot abilities. (Worse than VTG)

The extra linked action combos are good to have but don't make the ship any more powerful.

This makes me think that it should be of a comparable cost to VTG for higher INI pilots and lower for the others

I think that the s-foils aren't all that good on generics. Without Ten or Braylen's stress-mods, the double tap will be entirely unmodded, and even that will be at the limitation of having to commit to the target by locking at low initiative (unless they spend another 3 points on passive sensors on top of the cannon(s)). Lock actions will be required every turn to keep double-tapping - unlike the normal use of a lock to mod, you can't keep it if you got a good natural roll - so k-turns or t-rolls switch it off.

So basically, to do much better offensively than just attacking with a 3-dice primary modded with a focus, you probably need 3 points on passive sensors for the same target flexibility on engagement plus at least 2 for autoblaster for a damage-dealing cannon (or 5 for ion if you want to shoot to range 3). That's 5 or 8 points, before the s-foils, just to get 2 unmodded shots instead of one modded shot. If the s-foils are priced at what they're worth on Ten or Braylen (who benefit much more because they can get mods on one or both attacks) they'll be garbage on generics.

4 hours ago, Schanez said:

Ten is 48 now, Braylen is 51. Is there a reason you think their price will look like this or is it a rough estimate?

And I do not think 13 is that high. Most double-taps are expensive. From the top of my head:

• Veteran Tail Gunner - 7 points, can only shoot after a primary front attack and only in primary back attack
• Vetean Turret Gunner - 8 points, can only shoot after a primary attack and only from a turret, bonus is you can target the same ship
• Bistan - 14 points, can only shoot if you have a Focus Token which more or less means, you want to run it with Perceptive Copilot at all times, you also have to use turret attack and have to target two different enemies
• Han Solo (gunner) - 14 points, can shoot at I7 but requires a turret attack and blocks that turret arc for the engagement
• Darth Maul (pilot) - have to burn two out of three Force Charges to perform a bonus attack, either on the same target, if you missed or another one, if you hit

Now Stabilized S-Foils for B-Wings give you:

• three new action options, that being Red Reload, B-Roll > Red Lock, B-Roll > Red Evade; two of those actions they had no access to without them;
• allows them after they perform any attack to burn a Lock to perform bonus Cannon Attack against the same target;

I am quite certain it is worth at least 13 points. If its any lower, its extremely unbalanced.

PS. I do not wish to pass as offensive or aggressive. I have been told, I can seem like this from my way of typing, hence the explanation. Friendly exchange of opinions is all I am here for

If anything in the pack/wave is 13 points, it'd better be Mag Pulse Missiles. Those things are nasty. Three effects (all three of which are actually strong) for a single marginal hit is gross.

//

Tail Gunner is 4 points, and never sees play. Double-arc ships find it costs too much to justify.

Bistan might be a solid comparison. Bistan prevents you from spending a focus on the first attack, but allows you to spend it on the second. S-Foils prevent you from spending a lock on *either* attack, but you can attack the same target. You also have to gain the lock, which can be challenging on lower-init ships. In addition, Bistan is priced for the worst-case scenario, which is Dash. B-Wing worst-case is less scary. It's more limited by arc and range and the fact that most cannons aren't that potent (particularly when attacking second).

I think the Lock requirements of StabSF are really quite steep. There's a good reason TIE/x1 cost less than X-Wings. Lock requirements suck.

//

Seems like it'd be worthwhile to work backwards. Start from the most scary worst-case generic, and see about what it ought to cost. I think the strongest generic will be doing Primary and Ion Cannon attacks (Ion control without giving up the damage threat of 3-dice primary attacks seems really good to me). All are free to present their own worst case, and what it ought to cost). To skip ahead, I think a fair-ish price for one of these would be 51 points, or 54 with Passive Sensors.

A B-Wing with StabSF and Ion Cannon is probably best compared to a Scurrg with Veteran Turret Gunner and Ion Cannon Turret. Scurrg is 58 points. Compared to the B-Wing, I'd wash out the Turret/Cannon Arc/Range differences. So the B-Wing has 2 worse hull, and based on upgrades, that'd be close to 6 points. B-Wing has better actions, worse dial, but more practical mobility due to small base. I think that's a bit of an edge to a B-Wing... maybe 2 points. Those two together are the same as the 4-point difference between a Scurrg and B-Wing.

But StabSF messes with dice mods, however, and requires Locks which can be geometrically difficult at low-init, and also give an opponent more counter-play options (Locked target can bolt, leaving really weakened offensively B-Wings). I think that's just worse than Veteran Turret Gunner. 8 points would be too much, let alone 13. In order to get the flexibility of not-requiring-a-lock, you'd need Passive Sensors, which is another 3 points.

So 58 - 4 (base B-Wing/Scurrg differences) - 3 Passive Sensors = 51 (54 with Passive Sensors). Is that fair? That seems to me to be something like what a Ion Cannon/StabSF B-Wing should cost, and it's a nice little breakpoint.

Presuming Ion Cannon remains 5 points (safe assumption), that'd be 46 for a B-Wing with Foils. 5 points different from now. I'd love to see at least 1 point baked into the B-Wing price, so that it's a little less attractive as a naked Jouster compared to the X-Wing. This would be 0-4 points for a StabSF config.

But would a StabSF/Jamming Beam B-Wing be worth 46? Giving up dice mods on the primary attack alone is probably fair compensation for a bonus Jamming Beam attack, and not really worth 5 points more than Live points. Hrm. But it does have some bonus action options.

//

Also, I think that @ClassicalMoser is mostly correct that the price on these ought to be somewhat low, since that allows more granularity in B-Wing pricing. Low-init ships don't care too much. Some of the limited pilots will be a lot nicer with StabSF. Seems better for these to be mostly reflected in the cost of be base ships.

However, I've started to come around to, providing B-Wings get a 1 point bump, having a little bit of a cost on StabSF. 2-4 points, so that a B-Wing is playable without, but it'll almost always be worth it to bring these.

Wait... maybe price literally at 1 point per initiative. They get a bit more expensive as the Lock requirements get easier. But they're also low enough that it'll be fairly easy to price B-Wings with some granularity based on how much the particular ships gain from StabSF.

This should probably start out at least as the same costing as Veteran Turret Gunner. having played a lot of double tap IG's recently, it is strong, but unlike the IG's, the B-Wings won't need to miss to fire a second shot. This makes a Jamming Beam/FCS Combo on a Foiled B-Wing (especially Ten and Braylen) an inexpensive, almost auto-include option.

18 hours ago, Schanez said:

Want to troll the enemy? Do a Tractor Beam followed with Ion Cannon. Then just use the B-Wings superior mobility to sit on his tail endlessly.

Control B-Wings might be an interesting list in the future. I'll admit I chuckled little when you said that the B-Wings had superior mobility, but compared to an ioned and tractored ship, their dial is great.

4 hours ago, Schanez said:

Veteran Tail Gunner - 7 points, can only shoot after a primary front attack and only in primary back attack

Veteran Tail Gunner is only 4 points. /nitpick

2 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

Wait... maybe price literally at 1 point per initiative. They get a bit more expensive as the Lock requirements get easier. But they're also low enough that it'll be fairly easy to price B-Wings with some granularity based on how much the particular ships gain from StabSF.

But here’s the problem: if SSF is 4 points at I4, then do you make Braylen or Ten more expensive? Braylen is much better than Ten without Foils, but Ten is even more better than Braylen with them.

Suppose we make them both 52 points? Ten with Foils at that price gets really strong. At the same time, without Dutch or someone in the squad I kind of doubt Braylen will want to chase that big an investment. But if you make Ten more expensive, he stops seeing play either way, and if you make Braylen less, we’ve seen he’s OP...

11 hours ago, ClassicalMoser said:

But here’s the problem: if SSF is 4 points at I4, then do you make Braylen or Ten more expensive? Braylen is much better than Ten without Foils, but Ten is even more better than Braylen with them.

Suppose we make them both 52 points? Ten with Foils at that price gets really strong. At the same time, without Dutch or someone in the squad I kind of doubt Braylen will want to chase that big an investment. But if you make Ten more expensive, he stops seeing play either way, and if you make Braylen less, we’ve seen he’s OP...

I kinda think StabSF Braylen might be underrated. The linked Lock can be less intuitive, but Braylen has the double-rerolls on both attacks, which is still solid. 3.156 expected damage with Primary+Ion, while Ten (able to spend only 1 stress and not spend the lock) is 3.171, which is Heroic-levels of red-dice diference. Ten can be improved by FCS, but that's extra points that Braylen doesn't need to spend.

Having the two of them cost the same doesn't seem too bad.

Meanwhile, it's not the end of the world if a no-foils Ten Numb is a bit overpriced compared to a no-foils Braylen. Like, suppose for sake of argument that 55 is the correct price with foils for either of them. That's the same 51 for Braylen as in Live, but it'd be a 3-point nerf for Ten Numb that he doesn't need. Well, that's less of a cost increase than fully baking in the S-Foils cost, which is good for folks who either don't have the new StabSF, or just want to save as many points as possible.

The fact that the S-Foils aren't in the B-Wing expansion but only in the HS&A pack will be awkward for some players, and baking the *full* cost of the StabSF makes B-Wings without them too far worse than simply having a cheap-but-non-zero StabSF cost. Non-S-Foils B-Wings should be non-optimal, but not necessarily literally unplayable. I've really come around to thinking there should be a *small* price for StabSF. 2-4 points is enough to make the option exist, even if it's clearly worse.

15 hours ago, 5050Saint said:

This should probably start out at least as the same costing as Veteran Turret Gunner.

I get where you're coming from, but I think the lock requirements are strict enough to justify a bit of a cost reduction relative to VTG. Having essentially no action and being limited to only attacking one particular ship is a pretty hefty drawback, hence TIE/x1 comparison to T-65.

///

Well, I guess we'll all see in about a week.

9 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

I get where you're coming from, but I think the lock requirements are strict enough to justify a bit of a cost reduction relative to VTG. Having essentially no action and being limited to only attacking one particular ship is a pretty hefty drawback, hence TIE/x1 comparison to T-65.

Both VTG and Stabfoils have their drawbacks. Currently, VTG can only go out to range 2, and largely one of those two attacks are single modified and the other is not (Drea rerolls is the exception). Stabfoils has differing range restrictions depending on what cannon is used but can hit range 3, but requires spending lock, largely making both shots unmodded (FCS, Braylen, and Ten are the exceptions).

They are not equal, but I want to be cautious about letting multiple ships double tap for a low price point. Hence the VTG cost suggestion as that upgrade is at a point where taking is a choice not an autoinclude.

1 hour ago, 5050Saint said:

Currently, VTG can only go out to range 2