Hello everybody, sorry for the poor english

I have some trouble with the rule bleeding because in the Italian corebook she is badly write.

The rule says "when you take dice with the strife, you take phisical damage equal to the number of dice, bypassing resistence"; so, if I understand, you can take 1 fatigue for every strife (also if you are in Void Form, right?)

The next line of the rule says "Everytime the damage taken in this way generate a critical hit, the deadliness is equal to the fatigue value"; so, that's mean when everytime you take fatigue from the bleeding condition, you also take a critical hit? And this critical hit can also be reduced deadliness with the fit roll? And if you in the fit roll take another strife, you can also generate another fatigue and another critical hit?

If someone explain me with an example I would be very greatful to him.

A. You are correct. Fatigue for every Strife SYMBOL (which is the important part), so Void Stance does not change the situation, you just don't gain strife for the symbols on the dice.

B. It refers to the situation, that your gained fatigue (from the bleeding) exceeds your endurance and you'd get a critical hit for it.

C. As the condition says "When a Bleeding character makes a check ...", so the fitness to reduce the critical hit applies here, although I see no reason to count the fatigue that exceeded the endurance once he's incapacitated or unconscious.

4 hours ago, RusakRakesh said:

C. As the condition says "When a Bleeding character makes a check ...", so the fitness to reduce the critical hit applies here, although I see no reason to count the fatigue that exceeded the endurance once he's incapacitated or unconscious.

You do not need to count it because it would not do damage anyway. It would trigger a critical strike.

On 12/23/2019 at 11:24 AM, Nabo81 said:

The next line of the rule says "Everytime the damage taken in this way generate a critical hit, the deadliness is equal to the fatigue value"; so, that's mean when everytime you take fatigue from the bleeding condition, you also take a critical hit? And this critical hit can also be reduced deadliness with the fit roll? And if you in the fit roll take another strife, you can also generate another fatigue and another critical hit?

You do not take a critical hit from the damage you take by trying to resist a critical hit while bleeding (you would just take damage that you are allowed to defend against using your endurance).
Unless you were incapacitated while you resisted the critical strike... in that case, yeah, taking damage from bleeding would trigger a second critical strike.

Now, that is where the game gets messy...
-If you resist a critical strike while incapacitated, you automatically get the unconscious condition.
-If you are also bleeding and decide to keep dice with strife symbol to resist a critical strike while incapacitated, you would automatically take another critical hit because bleeding would do damage to you that you are not able to defend against.
-That second critical hit would be at +10 deadliness (since the first critical hit automatically put you unconscious).
-Unless you spend a void point to instantly remove the unconscious condition from yourself before that second critical hit triggers.
-In that aforementioned case, you would still take a second critical strike, but not at +10. Which "might" make the keeping of strife on the resist check relevant in some very edge case situations in which you absolutely needed that extra success. Those situations are extremely rare probably and lets just say that most of the time, you do not want to keep strife on checks to resist critical strike if you are incapacitated and bleeding.

I also have questions regarding Bleeding and its cousin, Dangerous Terrain.

1) When someone who is close to his Endurance threshold and Bleeding makes an attack and wants to keep enough dice with Strife symbols to push him over his Endurance, he would become Incapacitated before the Total Successes of his check are calculated. Would that have an effect on whether the check succeeds?

2) Do I understand it correctly that physical resistance protects against Dangerous Terrain? It makes sense on the one hand, but should render it moot in most cases, as armors of at least PhysRes 2+ are to be expected.

1) no. Incapacitation stops you selecting an action which requires a check, but doesn't stop you resolving the check. Bleeding *could* bugger up a check by giving you a wounded critical strike to change a TN mid-check, but I'm not sure if there's any situation where that could happen where you'd have not been incapacitated and able to make the check to begin with. I guess bleeding *whilst* in dangerous terrain?

3 hours ago, Harzerkatze said:

I also have questions regarding Bleeding and its cousin, Dangerous Terrain.

1) When someone who is close to his Endurance threshold and Bleeding makes an attack and wants to keep enough dice with Strife symbols to push him over his Endurance, he would become Incapacitated before the Total Successes of his check are calculated. Would that have an effect on whether the check succeeds?

2) Do I understand it correctly that physical resistance protects against Dangerous Terrain? It makes sense on the one hand, but should render it moot in most cases, as armors of at least PhysRes 2+ are to be expected.

1) no.

2) yes. It makes dangerous terrain, not so dangerous. But as a GM, I wouldn't be past putting dangerous terrains that ignore/bypass resistances in some cases. (I'll try to be logical about it, and hope the players can understand).

I think after enough sessions of that game, we as a group understood the system was quite clunky and easily abusable. We now manage to have an ok agreement of when to slightly tweak the rules or not. As a GM your role is to be fair so that no player feels cheated, and as a player you need to be understanding that the game needs on the fly houseruling and that you should embrace it.

4 minutes ago, Magnus Grendel said:

1) no. Incapacitation stops you selecting an action which requires a check, but doesn't stop you resolving the check. Bleeding *could* bugger up a check by giving you a wounded critical strike to change a TN mid-check, but I'm not sure if there's any situation where that could happen where you'd have not been incapacitated and able to make the check to begin with. I guess bleeding *whilst* in dangerous terrain?

More than that, opportunities and strife do not in any case affect the TN of the current check which is set at the beginning of the check. As per the designer (Brook) if I recall correctly.

So getting wounded mid check should not alter the TN of the current check.

3 minutes ago, Avatar111 said:

It makes dangerous terrain, not so dangerous.

Certainly not on a battlefield if you're in armour. Trying to sneak across a palace in formal robes might make a short cut through a thorn bush less of a pleasant idea.

It's worth noting that falling, bleeding, suffocating and burning have their own rules, so this isn't catastrophically dangerous terrain...I'd agree that for really dangerous terrain I'd give it a chance to cause one or more of the above.

2 hours ago, Magnus Grendel said:

Certainly not on a battlefield if you're in armour. Trying to sneak across a palace in formal robes might make a short cut through a thorn bush less of a pleasant idea.

It's worth noting that falling, bleeding, suffocating and burning have their own rules, so this isn't catastrophically dangerous terrain...I'd agree that for really dangerous terrain I'd give it a chance to cause one or more of the above.

I was primarily thinking about the Iron Forest Style kata, which PCs in my group have. So armor is to be expected.

In a real fire, I'd say the damage ignores armor, because burning does, too. That's different.

21 minutes ago, Harzerkatze said:

I was primarily thinking about the Iron Forest Style kata, which PCs in my group have. So armor is to be expected.

In a real fire, I'd say the damage ignores armor, because burning does, too. That's different.

Burning condition already ignore resistances. It is your call if the terrain "sets the character ablaze" though.

Regarding Iron Forest, yeah, it is less damaging against armored targets (and lets be honest, they at least have 1 phys res...). I really think the biggest draw of the technique is the TN4, or even TN5 (water) fitness check which is absurdly strong.

On 1/1/2020 at 10:40 AM, Harzerkatze said:

I was primarily thinking about the Iron Forest Style kata, which PCs in my group have. So armor is to be expected.

In a real fire, I'd say the damage ignores armor, because burning does, too. That's different.

It's for this reason that I say Dangerous Terrain ignores armor. If it didn't, Iron Forest would be pretty lame, and using it with a naginata would result in a broken weapon, basically all the time. Because it's razor-edged, so if you use it, your enemy just has to keep Strife equal to or less than his armor. A simple kimono? Keep one Strife and damage your weapon. You have a friend? He can move in and do the same. Now your weapon is broken.

I've decided that Bleeding and Dangerous Terrain cause Fatigue directly, not Damage. This means that you don't Defend against it, and it won't cause a Critical Strike. I know this nerfs them, but it stops a lot of complication, and prevents the ridiculous Bleeding Crit Cascade.

Is it RAW? Nope. But sometimes RAW is wrong.

46 minutes ago, The Grand Falloon said:

It's for this reason that I say Dangerous Terrain ignores armor. If it didn't, Iron Forest would be pretty lame, and using it with a naginata would result in a broken weapon, basically all the time. Because it's razor-edged, so if you use it, your enemy just has to keep Strife equal to or less than his armor. A simple kimono? Keep one Strife and damage your weapon. You have a friend? He can move in and do the same. Now your weapon is broken.

I've decided that Bleeding and Dangerous Terrain cause Fatigue directly, not Damage. This means that you don't Defend against it, and it won't cause a Critical Strike. I know this nerfs them, but it stops a lot of complication, and prevents the ridiculous Bleeding Crit Cascade.

Is it RAW? Nope. But sometimes RAW is wrong.

For Iron Forest, the area around you counts a Dangerous Terrain. In no way it says that this damage is done by the weapon itself. It wouldn't get damaged if the opponent soaks all the damage from the "Terrain".

Dangerous Terrain is fine. If you think it is too weak, you can make "extremely dangerous terrain" and up the damage to x2 if you want.

Bleeding already goes through all Resistances. So it is also fine.
My personal issue with bleeding is that the Crit scales with the amount of Fatigue you have, I do not see the purpose of that part.
Honestly, just a high static number would have the same result. Remember you can't really take strife on the resist check for that anyway... It is absolutely devastating.
But honestly... it isn't enough of a big deal to put in my Houserule, so I just leave it as is.
Otherwise, I do not see what you mean by "Crit Cascade" ?

20 hours ago, Avatar111 said:

For Iron Forest, the area around you counts a Dangerous Terrain. In no way it says that this damage is done by the weapon itself. It wouldn't get damaged if the opponent soaks all the damage from the "Terrain".

Agreed.

Equally, note that the Razor-Edged quality is triggered " When you succeed at an Attack action check that deals damage to a target using a Razor-Edged item " - Iron Forest is not an action in and of itself, it's an opportunity, and the technique could quite realistically be triggered by spending on a failed check, or a Martial Arts [Melee] check which is not an attack action, both of which must logically prevent the effect from applying.

On ‎1‎/‎1‎/‎2020 at 7:09 PM, Avatar111 said:

I really think the biggest draw of the technique is the TN4, or even TN5 (water) fitness check which is absurdly strong.

I would agree. It's basically one of very few ways to pin an opponent with a short weapon the business end of a spear (aside from throwing a much higher number of with a Snaring polearm); any damage you manage to inflict with it is very much a bonus. It's not too hard to break past in Air stance (TN2) but obviously not everyone can fight effectively in that stance.