Hello friends!

I was chatting with a buddy today about the new deplete tokens, and I wanted to hear what the forums think.

I am of the mind that Deplete will be a bad thing for the game. Aside from very specific and costly abilities on the likes of Kanan and Rex, nothing has yet worked so directly against the basic operation of this game - shooting. On 2-dice ships, this will be particularly debilitating.

Things like Strain and Tractor tokens change your defenses - but not your basic ability, shooting.

Things like Tractor and Ion tokens change your placement - but not your basic ability, shooting.

Maybe it's because I often roll with lower agility ships anyways, and frequently inch around the board that a 1-forward isn't a ruinous move to have decided for me. But those things don't feel like NPE to me.

But being stripped of my ability to do the most fundamental aspect of the game does, especially as a player whose strategy leans more towards "bigger, better guns" than slipperiness.

Thoughts?

Cheers!

Oh yeah, no, it's frakking horrible. There's more 2 dice ships in play than 3 dice ones, and we know for a fact that 1 dice attacks are actually absolutely worthless.

For OP and competitive play it will most likely result in more games going to time--which considering 90% of games already so, doesn't bode well for games going to definitive conclusion. Number of turns already average much lower than 1st edition.

1 hour ago, Greebwahn said:

Things like Tractor and Ion tokens change your placement - but not your basic ability, shooting.

Over an asteroid you can't perform attacks.

Deplete tokens against enemy ships are limited now to 1 pilot and 1 ordenance upgrade.

We don't know their price yet and I think will be expensive. I'll wait until then.

I don't think deplete is inherently problematic as a mechanic, but it could definitely become an issue if it's too easy to hand out. Applying it to your own ships as the cost of using an ability seems fine.

More offense is in principle good. It turns bad if it leads to more defense, as it happened in 1.0 with token stacks and autothrusters etc.

Deplete is a step into the wrong direction, but it does not have to be that bad for the game. It could remain inconsequential..

As long as the ways they get handed out stay rare or expensive, I don’t think it’s going to be that bad. The ship that can hand one out without sacrificing an attack to do so has to do it in the system phase, which means you can immediately counter it in the prior planning phase knowing it’s a risk by dialing a blue maneuver in. Done.

I expect mag pulse warheads to be expensive because of the multiple control elements involved while still doing a crit.

Yeah I agree, especially when it can be handed out at high initiative. Mag Pulse missiles are a design that seems like it could totally break the game into even worse aces **** if it's not really expensive.

OTOH, I don't hate at all deplete as a cost to perform an ability, I think that's cool.

Deplete as a cost is fine

Deplete as a debuff is an issue that'll only skew the game even harder towards higher initiative (re: mag pulse)

The other bad thing about Mag Pulse: three effects for the first hit. One major improvement 2e presented over 1e is the way that "status" cannons worked. It's been 1 hit = 1 effect. Want 2 effects? Get 2 hits past defense dice. That's what has kept Ion weapons fair in 2e, and it is good.

Mag Pulse does Jam, Crit, and Deplete on *ONE* hit. That's a big yikes from me.

//

As to Deplete in general, I think I've mostly got a "wait and see." While it could easily get out of hand, I don't think it's an inherently problematic mechanic. I'd put the problems onto the head of Mag Pulse, rather than Deplete.

I was thinking this, as well. Weaponized Deplete seems very strong. Hopefully, like strain, it will remain sparse. But, as svelok and ficklegreen said, debugging yourself with deplete to achieve some ability, I'm totally cool with.

It all hinges on the cost of the Magpulse Charges; Vonreg's ability is potent, but can be countered by executing a blue maneuver as the token is handed out in the Systems Phase.

I doubt that Magpulses will see use on most high initiative pilots, as they'll already have a three dice attack and generally want to take focus actions/reposition actions for defense. I could see them being potent on i3 TIE/sfs, but largely for bullying lower initiative ships (Trade Federation Drones, for instance).

Since deplete tokens seem to be removed by blue maneuvers rather than shooting, their impact depends a lot on when it can be applied to opponent ships. So weaponized deplete will be very strong if paired with high Initiative. On the other hand spamming mag-pulse warheads on cheap low I ships will hand out something similar to stress tokens.

3 minutes ago, Tobbert said:

cheap low I ships will hand out something similar to stress tokens.

what could go wrong?

3 minutes ago, svelok said:

what could go wrong?

If it is really bad, FFG will just make mag-pulse warheads unique.

10 hours ago, Cloaker said:

For OP and competitive play it will most likely result in more games going to time--which considering 90% of games already so, doesn't bode well for games going to definitive conclusion. Number of turns already average much lower than 1st edition.

You do realize you can have a definite conclusion that doesn't include all ships being taken off the table, right? That's why we have points.

On the whole though I'm not too worried about deplete tokens. They will be annoying. There's a guy in our local group who likes to run Kanan/Rex, it may not be competitive but it is suuuper annoying. However, it does introduce new mechanics *without*, and this is really important, contributing to power creep, which is most people's biggest worry after 1.0.

As for use, if they're cost effective (and the ship doesn't go up in January) I think generic Inquisitors will love them.

Deplete will be yet another control kit in the toolbox we have to react to. It sucks way less than tractor because:

-blue moves

-doesn't seek to invalidate the big part of the game being dial and positioning

-will be rare and/or expensive

-HIGH SHIP COUNTS are encouraged because of it (higher mass of red dice), which I thought these forums were all for

Yeah, it looks nasty on the surface. And no, I am not a playtester. But I have proxied a lot with Vonreg and Mag Pulse at various costs. The former can only rely on the ability so much: he still has to watch for arc even with composure. The latter are best used at the right moment: the 1 dmg and the 1 round of neutering an attack per charge is put into perspective against a Sear Swarm. In other words, you still have to be careful with these tools. The sky is not falling.

But sadly, the sky is not all rosy either, as I must admit. Though deplete encourages swarms and filling a blank slot on a lot of ace lists, it demoralizes a lot of 3 ship lists and a few 4 ship lists, primarily those of middling initiative and/or seek to tank to be the better jouster (most 4 ships are safe tho). Whereas a swarm could laugh and punish a mag pulse bearer for exposing himself or even 1st player aces outmaneuver the same adversary, if you have 3 mid-init ships, once you finally do get multiple guns on target, the scariest gun is invalidated. 3 ships of mid init/mobility was a fun archetype in Wave 1, destroyed by the envelope being insanely pushed by subsequent 4+ ship count meta for non-aces, had its grave urinated on by the prevalence of force and regen, and had the cemetary detonated with a nuke by deplete. Thank Duncan Jedi don't have the missile slot (though I wouldn't be opposed to an astro that gives the slot, given that Mag Pulse are a much fairer panic button than Yoloing with 7B regen).

47 minutes ago, Tobbert said:

If it is really bad, FFG will just make mag-pulse warheads unique.

Honestly I just expect them to get the epb treatment. Price them like a meme upgrade and watch how often they get taken.

https://meta.listfortress.com/upgrades?

I’d favor Gas Clouds giving a deplete token. You’re more defensive more guns targeting are scrambled too

I'm enjoying this discussion, folks!

I would definitely echo everyone else who is saying that as a cost, I'm A-OK with it - it's as an inflicted debuff I'm concerned with

I am definitely hoping inflicted deplete with be pricey AF, because as a guy who likes his B-Wings and that sort of ship, it basically ends their value far too regularly for my comfort

6 minutes ago, Greebwahn said:

I'm enjoying this discussion, folks!

I would definitely echo everyone else who is saying that as a cost, I'm A-OK with it - it's as an inflicted debuff I'm concerned with

I am definitely hoping inflicted deplete with be pricey AF, because as a guy who likes his B-Wings and that sort of ship, it basically ends their value far too regularly for my comfort

^^^

So long as the B foils see exactly as much play as mag pulse warheads

3 hours ago, Tobbert said:

If it is really bad, FFG will just make mag-pulse warheads unique.

I wish. However, mag pulse is probably already printed without a limited dot. That means it will never get another one, as it would require a reprint and an errata, and ffg has already shown they are not willing to do that. Limitrd dot needed to be in the pdf day 1, but now that ship has sailed im afraid .

2 hours ago, Greebwahn said:

I'm enjoying this discussion, folks!

I would definitely echo everyone else who is saying that as a cost, I'm A-OK with it - it's as an inflicted debuff I'm concerned with

I am definitely hoping inflicted deplete with be pricey AF, because as a guy who likes his B-Wings and that sort of ship, it basically ends their value far too regularly for my comfort

Not really. The missile itself is only doing a single crit for damage, so these missiles aren't going to be scoring that many kills. They're trading damage dealt on their attack in return for less incoming damage from you in return.

7 hours ago, AceDogbert said:

It all hinges on the cost of the Magpulse Charges; Vonreg's ability is potent, but can be countered by executing a blue maneuver as the token is handed out in the Systems Phase.

I doubt that Magpulses will see use on most high initiative pilots, as they'll already have a three dice attack and generally want to take focus actions/reposition actions for defense. I could see them being potent on i3 TIE/sfs, but largely for bullying lower initiative ships (Trade Federation Drones, for instance).

If they're cheap enough I wouldn't be surprised to see a lot of them on Vader. He already wants to take a target lock, can perform multiple actions, also has the Force for mods, and fires at I6.

2 hours ago, PhantomFO said:

Not really. The missile itself is only doing a single crit for damage, so these missiles aren't going to be scoring that many kills. They're trading damage dealt on their attack in return for less incoming damage from you in return.

Depends on what you're firing at. If you're shooting a shielded B-Wing at range 1, sure. If you're shooting a Jedi at range 3 you're probably not doing more than 1 damage anyway, and the missiles are more likely to hit because they deny the range bonus. Of course, the debuff will also be a bit less consistent against agile ships because you might miss completely.

On 12/20/2019 at 11:41 PM, Greebwahn said:

Hello friends!

I was chatting with a buddy today about the new deplete tokens, and I wanted to hear what the forums think.

I am of the mind that Deplete will be a bad thing for the game. Aside from very specific and costly abilities on the likes of Kanan and Rex, nothing has yet worked so directly against the basic operation of this game - shooting. On 2-dice ships, this will be particularly debilitating.

Things like Strain and Tractor tokens change your defenses - but not your basic ability, shooting.

Things like Tractor and Ion tokens change your placement - but not your basic ability, shooting.

Maybe it's because I often roll with lower agility ships anyways, and frequently inch around the board that a 1-forward isn't a ruinous move to have decided for me. But those things don't feel like NPE to me.

But being stripped of my ability to do the most fundamental aspect of the game does, especially as a player whose strategy leans more towards "bigger, better guns" than slipperiness.

Thoughts?

Cheers!

I think I'm of the opposite view. I'm not big on control in general, but of all the control elements in the game, Deplete actually sounds like one of the less annoying ones. Then again, my dice never hit anything even when they're all there, so that might explain why I'm not too concerned about losing one or two.