I really missed the twins. I miss the Vong just because they weren’t Palp.

9 minutes ago, TasteTheRainbow said:

I really missed the twins. I miss the Vong just because they weren’t Palp.

I mean didn't Palp come back in Legends as well?

3 minutes ago, KiraYamatoSF said:

I mean didn't Palp come back in Legends as well?

True! Maybe I’m just comparing the wrong end-points.

I was rather enjoying the Legacy and Fate of The Jedi series. I thought "Invincible" was a little succinct but generally I thought the EU was in a fairly decent spot there when they ended it. I hadn't read everything old EU so maybe I missed some of the more hated stuff.

Generally where I think they failed for the new trilogy is first in locking themselves into a trilogy. Then they didn't take the time to develop what their new normal was going to look like. They took the wrong messages and lessons from the in 2014 prequels-are-awful reflex folks still haven't let go of. They chickened out and hired JJ and then further chickened out by just giving us Star Wars again.

Overall I prefer that the EU didn't wash away the happy ending of Return of The Jedi and did return the Jedi.

55 minutes ago, KiraYamatoSF said:

I mean didn't Palp come back in Legends as well?

Multiple times. He also brought with him ships with superlasers built into them.

He also built his forces out of Imperial Remnants and splinter factions that remained loyal to him.

He also made use of a superweapon that could fire across the galaxy to destroy planets.

There was also a book series that revealed that Palpatine had a son and grandson.

Point is: there's a lot of repurposed and repainted Legends stuff in the sequel trilogy.

50 minutes ago, KiraYamatoSF said:

I mean didn't Palp come back in Legends as well?

It was (and I cannot believe I'm saying this, because those comics were awful) executed far better in the EU.

I grew up with the EU and to this day am a big fan of it. But when Disney bought the franchise and wrote it off, I was not upset. The last two EU book series had been so badly handled that it didn't feel like Disney was killing the EU more than it felt like they were putting it out of its misery. Like they were putting down a beloved but now decrepit pet. And up until now, I felt that what we got on screen was a perfectly reasonable alternative.

Now though...

The Rise of Skywalker ranks among the very worst Star Wars stories I have ever seen. And having been a lifetime fan of the EU, I've seen some particularly bad ones. It is nothing more than JJ Abrams' fan fiction given a movie budget, complete with all the amateurish story construction and forced connections to the originals one would expect from the very worst fan fiction.

I'm still not exactly sad they ended the EU, but I am sad that it died so they could force this garbage down our throats.

Or maybe I should be thanking JJ and Disney for showing me how bad it can be and making me appreciate the good parts of the EU even more.

I'm done with the movies and all things Di$ney. I'm going to play this mod instead.

1 minute ago, DR4CO said:

It was (and I cannot believe I'm saying this, because those comics were awful) executed far better in the EU.

I grew up with the EU and to this day am a big fan of it. But when Disney bought the franchise and wrote it off, I was not upset. The last two EU book series had been so badly handled that it didn't feel like Disney was killing the EU more than it felt like they were putting it out of its misery. Like they were putting down a beloved but now decrepit pet. And up until now, I felt that what we got on screen was a perfectly reasonable alternative.

Now though...

The Rise of Skywalker ranks among the very worst Star Wars stories I have ever seen. And having been a lifetime fan of the EU, I've seen some particularly bad ones. It is nothing more than JJ Abrams' fan fiction given a movie budget, complete with all the amateurish story construction and forced connections to the originals one would expect from the very worst fan fiction.

I'm still not exactly sad they ended the EU, but I am sad that it died so they could force this garbage down our throats.

Or maybe I should be thanking JJ and Disney for showing me how bad it can be and making me appreciate the good parts of the EU even more.

That's one of the things that just floored me about Starkiller Base. That sort of thing is fairly hated EU stuff. And after blowing up two death stars already why even if desperate to correct all things prequel with TFA did they go that route with it. If you look at the well loved and lauded Thrawn Trilogy it lacks a superweapon. The Rogue Squadron books lack that sort of thing as well.

1 hour ago, Derpzilla88 said:

Point is: there's a lot of repurposed and repainted Legends stuff in the sequel trilogy.

To be fair the EU was so diverse it’d be hard to come up with something completely unique else unless you just abandoned the era.

4 hours ago, KiraYamatoSF said:

I mean didn't Palp come back in Legends as well?

Dark Empire through modern eyes doesn’t hold up but at the time of writing:

1) chosen one prophecy hadn’t been written/explained (no prequel films). Basically Vader makes the big sacrifice for his son and that’s the end. Vader choosing Luke over the emperor. No prophecy, no force balance. Just a fathers love for his son.

2) sith force ghosts weren’t forbidden/breaking lore at the time. palpatines force spirit inhabits a clone without a soul, which would sense the sith ghosts could do some nasty stuff like possession at the time.

So really it was more of a product of lack of understanding at the time, because the rules to be broken hadn’t been written yet. Some EU stuff does age out(RIP my boy Kyle Katarn and his Death Star plans heist).

2 hours ago, TasteTheRainbow said:

To be fair the EU was so diverse it’d be hard to come up with something completely unique else unless you just abandoned the era.

“We DiDn’T HaVe AnY SoUrCe MaTeRiAl”.

4 hours ago, Frimmel said:

That's one of the things that just floored me about Starkiller Base. That sort of thing is fairly hated EU stuff. And after blowing up two death stars already why even if desperate to correct all things prequel with TFA did they go that route with it. If you look at the well loved and lauded Thrawn Trilogy it lacks a superweapon. The Rogue Squadron books lack that sort of thing as well.

That's the thing that frustrates me the most about these movies. They COULD have been good...?with a better editor? Even the stories we had, just...

I mean, okay, take TLJ. I get that a lot of people were not happy with the 'Luke as a hermit hiding from his past' angle, but...it was at least interesting , and fit the character and patterns of the setting well. And even the haters usually agree - basically every scene with Luke in it was perfect. What's the issue with the movie, then? That HUUUUUGE waste of time with the pointless fleet chase (pointless as in - did nothing for the plot, dragged out the movie, didn't even advance the story for the characters it was specifically inserted TO advance the story for), leading into the epic failure of Canto Bight.

Restructure that movie. Start with the evacuation - although skip the idiotic sacrifice of the Rebel squadrons that existed just to get Poe in trouble. Rebels eek out a win, and escape...only they don't, they are pursued. We don't care about the details of that - oops, they are pursued. Okay, they flee to a planet they are sure they can't be tracked to, and start setting up camp to call for help. BUT SURPRISE THEY ARE TRACKED! Ground battle ensues. All of this works alongside the Acht-To scenes with Luke and Rey, but cuts out like half the crap that the movie didn't need . Poe stays in everyone's good graces. No grinding-the-movie-to-a-halt pursuit piece. No need for Canto Bight, and the characters we got from there, or the various other who-cares betrayals. etc.

Similarly, even TFA - you'd think offhand it could hardly be saved, as it's so beat-for-beat a copy of the 1977 film. Why not just flip the villain? IE., take out Starkiller base entirely , and the destruction of the New Republic as a surprise attack - give Leia the struggle she was fighting and only alluded to in the opening crawl . IE., the New Republic is bad, too! Her enemy is the First Order, but she's also fighting New Republic politics that are sabotaging everything she worked for! (More interesting, yes? Also I bet initially considered, but JJ wouldn't risk it given the knee-jerk reaction of "it's a movie about tax disputes , WTF?!" that Episode I got - he does nothing if not play things safe.) What would that even CHANGE about the next two movies? ABSOLUTELY NOTHING! The Resistance is still on their own, trying to fight an enemy that is going to wipe out everything everywhere, and they can't get the support they need to do that because people won't risk their own comfort by believing their warning.

You got an EU novel on screen. Not sure what there is to complain about.

Honestly, I don't know anymore.

After Rise of Skywalker, I'm not sure it was worth purging the EU anymore.

1 minute ago, Sithborg said:

You got an EU novel on screen. Not sure what there is to complain about.

Not quite, the Vong didn't show up.

1 hour ago, xanderf said:

That's the thing that frustrates me the most about these movies. They COULD have been good...?with a better editor? Even the stories we had, just...

I mean, okay, take TLJ. I get that a lot of people were not happy with the 'Luke as a hermit hiding from his past' angle, but...it was at least interesting , and fit the character and patterns of the setting well. And even the haters usually agree - basically every scene with Luke in it was perfect. What's the issue with the movie, then? That HUUUUUGE waste of time with the pointless fleet chase (pointless as in - did nothing for the plot, dragged out the movie, didn't even advance the story for the characters it was specifically inserted TO advance the story for), leading into the epic failure of Canto Bight.

Restructure that movie. Start with the evacuation - although skip the idiotic sacrifice of the Rebel squadrons that existed just to get Poe in trouble. Rebels eek out a win, and escape...only they don't, they are pursued. We don't care about the details of that - oops, they are pursued. Okay, they flee to a planet they are sure they can't be tracked to, and start setting up camp to call for help. BUT SURPRISE THEY ARE TRACKED! Ground battle ensues. All of this works alongside the Acht-To scenes with Luke and Rey, but cuts out like half the crap that the movie didn't need . Poe stays in everyone's good graces. No grinding-the-movie-to-a-halt pursuit piece. No need for Canto Bight, and the characters we got from there, or the various other who-cares betrayals. etc.

Similarly, even TFA - you'd think offhand it could hardly be saved, as it's so beat-for-beat a copy of the 1977 film. Why not just flip the villain? IE., take out Starkiller base entirely , and the destruction of the New Republic as a surprise attack - give Leia the struggle she was fighting and only alluded to in the opening crawl . IE., the New Republic is bad, too! Her enemy is the First Order, but she's also fighting New Republic politics that are sabotaging everything she worked for! (More interesting, yes? Also I bet initially considered, but JJ wouldn't risk it given the knee-jerk reaction of "it's a movie about tax disputes , WTF?!" that Episode I got - he does nothing if not play things safe.) What would that even CHANGE about the next two movies? ABSOLUTELY NOTHING! The Resistance is still on their own, trying to fight an enemy that is going to wipe out everything everywhere, and they can't get the support they need to do that because people won't risk their own comfort by believing their warning.

These edits right here and remove the stupid Marvel Superhero quips and self referential moments and you'd have a solid series.

TFA was essentially you got your Nu Tek/Marvel in my Star Wars and TLJ was a continuation of that with an auteur trying to leave his mark.

On 12/20/2019 at 10:13 PM, Derpzilla88 said:

Point is: there's a lot of repurposed and repainted Legends stuff in the sequel trilogy.

Jacen Solo aka Darth Caedus, the original Kylo Ren.

On 12/20/2019 at 3:01 PM, TasteTheRainbow said:

I really missed the twins. I miss the Vong just because they weren’t Palp.

I liked the Vong, strange, as lots of folk HATED the NJO time frame (they killed Chewie by having to drop a MOON on him)... Initially i thought the twins were ok, but eventually i hated them.

My faves of the EU, were Thrawn, Palleon, and the X-wing novels!

On 12/20/2019 at 3:12 PM, KiraYamatoSF said:

I mean didn't Palp come back in Legends as well?

In the DE comics. Which were IIRC not considered part OF the EU novels..

On 12/20/2019 at 4:30 PM, Frimmel said:

That's one of the things that just floored me about Starkiller Base. That sort of thing is fairly hated EU stuff. And after blowing up two death stars already why even if desperate to correct all things prequel with TFA did they go that route with it. If you look at the well loved and lauded Thrawn Trilogy it lacks a superweapon. The Rogue Squadron books lack that sort of thing as well.

So true. One of the things LOTS of folk seemed to hate about the EU, was the glut of super-weapons.. Starkiller base certainly hit that mark!

On 12/20/2019 at 9:56 PM, KCDodger said:

Honestly, I don't know anymore.

After Rise of Skywalker, I'm not sure it was worth purging the EU anymore.

Heck, i felt that way after TFA.

I know the old EU had plenty of flaws, but overall I like it way more then the sequels.

The need to copy the OT movies so much makes the victory in Rotj feel a bit gone to waste.

I also don't like the fact that they had to make it all extremes in weapons and powers. I disliked things like the Suncrusher, but Star Killer base and a fleet of Destroyer Death Stars are even worse. Same with the extreme new Hyperspace usage every movie. First hypering onto a planets atmosphere, then a Hyperspace weapon and now those hyper blink jumps going through and perfectly between all sorts of things.

My favourite EU are Thrawns trilogy and the X-wing series and they didn't need super weapons to function.

I did feel like the Emperor Returned was a bit of an homage to the Dark Empire EU. Too bad the Resistance/FO were just cut and past. TIE Droids, E-wings, and the like would have been nice visual elements.

I miss Mara Jade. Someday I hope they make a movie about her as a dark agent of Palpatine. Maybe she meets Luke, they fall in love, and then must part (cuz new canon}, but she joins the Resistance/Rebels. It can be done in a way that makes sense.

I also would think they could still do the Thrawn Trilogy. Just make it contemporaneous with the Galactic Civil War. . .he's off in some remote Outer Rim sector doing his thing without any help/interference from the Emperor. Invent a new set of heroes to sub in for the old guard of Han/Luke/Leia.

I like that Leia and Han are estranged in the ST. Han following Leia around on political missions was a bit of a stretch, and as readers we were often reminded he would probably prefer to be doing something else.

I like that rebuilding the Jedi Order failed in the ST. Luke's take on the JO in TFA is pretty spot-on, IMHO.

Now that we know that Wedge is around, I would like to see some elements of the X-Wing novels brought to life.

Overall, MOST of the EU isn't really remarkable enough to worry about. But there are a few key things that would be nice to see re-done, and just because they would have to put a slightly different spin on stuff doesn't mean they could not be recanonized in the new storyline in a way that makes sense for both the old spirit of things and the new requirements for it to be consistent.

10 hours ago, LTuser said:

In the DE comics. Which were IIRC not considered part OF the EU novels..

No, it was canon. Just not referenced a lot.

They threw out the EU because JJ needed to throw out the rules. And instead of taking the EU and the prior films and establishing what the new sandbox was they just took the quick and easy path they thought everyone wanted and reset to Episode IV. But they didn't even put the work into that. They hand-waved a proper setup away because the audience doesn't care about politics.

What they should have done with all this EU stuff is sifted out what the new rules were going to be. Figured out how The Force was going to work. Figuring out how the tech was going to work. They didn't get a Michael and Denise Okuda to hold the whole thing together in those regards.

They didn't bother with any structure for governing anything.

With just three films of the OT we don't need midichlorians. The story doesn't need to get too deep into who can or can not use The Force. We don't need to know a Grand Moff from a Moff from a Lord from a Regional Governor from a Princess from a Senator for three movies. But on your seventh film and your eight and your ninth and your tenth and your eleventh and TV shows and comics and novels and games there needs to be answers to these questions. The framework needs more details to hold it all together and keep the creators honest. But that demanded an honest creator in the first place. A creator who saw all that stuff as more than just tools to create shock or surprise.

The problem I have with the EU is that there isn't a month that goes by without some combination of Han, Luke, or Leia having to go save the entire galaxy or fight in a war, or whatever. These people should be absolutely mentally cooked with massive PTSD and departing to go hang out on a remote island just to get some well deserved rest.

That's why the X-wing novels to me, were some of the best.. IT DIDN'T have to rely on the same ole hash of luke/leia/han saving the day.

One of the things the EU did that I think the sequels are failing at is keep the tech in a 1977 fantasy sci-fi state. There is this idea that the tech in Star Wars is particularly futuristic. It is for 1977. But I get the idea they felt a need to try and make it advanced for 2015.

But this put them in a does-not -feel-like-Star Wars bind. The creators of the sequels not only do not want to obey frameworks they do not seem to get the framework that they had after six films and all the EU. They did not really get how much EU had seeped into where vocal fans like we have here were coming at their new canon from.

So they made a muddle out of it in the films.