Do the rules (RAI or RAW) allow for firing multiple TYPES of forward firing weapons from a vehicle / starship. Example: firing an X-wings laser cannons AND proton torpedoes... or a B-Wing firing ion cannons + laser cannons + Autoblaster + torpedoes.

Reading "Alphabet Squadron" it seems like there are many narrative examples of this, but how would it work MECHANICALLY, if at all?

I considered using the two weapon rules (add one difficulty die), but then there's the problem of generating "enough" advantage to trigger multiple weapon hits AND trigger the "Linked" property of so many starship forward-firing weapons...

Thx,

GM Khyrith

I do not believe so, it was never mentioned. That said, if you want to do that, treating it like two-weapon fighting makes sense, but yeah, as you pointed out, it's not likely to be useful. Better to just fire your Proton Torpedoes and trigger linked than to fire your laser cannons and hope to get 4 Advantage so that you can hit with the torpedoes and then trigger the second hit with your torpedoes.

The Lancer-class pursuit craft from No Disintegrations has an ability that allows it to link its weapon systems (Forward twin light laser cannons, dorsal turret mounted triple light laser cannon, light tractor beam emitter) firing with this profile: 5; 3; Close; Linked 4, Tractor 2, but you would run into issues when you try to include weapons with different damage profiles.

2 hours ago, Khyrith said:

Do the rules (RAI or RAW) allow for firing multiple TYPES of forward firing weapons from a vehicle / starship. Example: firing an X-wings laser cannons AND proton torpedoes... or a B-Wing firing ion cannons + laser cannons + Autoblaster + torpedoes.

Reading "Alphabet Squadron" it seems like there are many narrative examples of this, but how would it work MECHANICALLY, if at all?

I considered using the two weapon rules (add one difficulty die), but then there's the problem of generating "enough" advantage to trigger multiple weapon hits AND trigger the "Linked" property of so many starship forward-firing weapons...

Thx,

GM Khyrith

Pilot and Clone Pilot (not sure of any others) have a talent called Master Pilot: Once per round when piloting a starship, may suffer 2 strain to perform any action as a maneuver.

So Action: Fire lasers, Maneuver: Spend 2 strain to fire torps.

I honestly can't think of any in-media examples where a ship unloaded more than 1 type of weapon in a single barrage. All ships I can think of did either-or in the space of what would be considered 1 round.

Just go with what the others have suggested. ^__^

I have a house rule that covers this, and a few extras inspired by the old Tie-Fighter/W-wing games.

Group Weapons (*House rule*)

Must have access to firing controls. Group similarly typed weapons (Beams, Blaster/Laser Cannons, Turbolasers, Ordnance, etc.) together for one attack in a firing arc they all share, choosing a primary weapon. Upgrade the attack a number of times equal to the secondary weapons grouped plus the total of all linked qualities for secondary weapons. Only weapon characteristics of the primary weapon are used for this attack. The range is equal to the shortest range of all weapons grouped. Included weapons are considered to have fired this round and use ammo/rules.

Redirect Power to Shields (*House rule*)

Must have access to shield controls. Reduce top speed of vehicle by 1 until end of encounter and restore 1 point of Defense to shield zone that is down.

Redirect Power to Engines (*House rule*)

Once per encounter, Increase top speed of vehicle by 1 and remove 1 full point of Defense from a shield zone that is not down

On 12/19/2019 at 3:03 PM, Khyrith said:

Do the rules (RAI or RAW) allow for firing multiple TYPES of forward firing weapons from a vehicle / starship. Example: firing an X-wings laser cannons AND proton torpedoes... or a B-Wing firing ion cannons + laser cannons + Autoblaster + torpedoes.

No. It's not explicitly stated, but being able to use only one weapon at a time is implied.

AoR249, Perform a Combat Check with Vehicle Weapons states that " This is similar to the Perform a Combat Check action on page 216, with some minor differences…. For this reason, the steps to perform a combat check are repeated, with the differences written in each step…. "

And, if we look at page 216, bottom right of the page, " The character chooses to make an attack. He selects what skill he will use to make the attack, and…which weapon he will be using. "

Since there is nothing on page 249 that contradicts this (remember, "the differences will be written in each step") this means that you have to choose which one weapon to use for the combat check.

On 12/19/2019 at 3:03 PM, Khyrith said:

Reading "Alphabet Squadron" it seems like there are many narrative examples of this, but how would it work MECHANICALLY, if at all?

As @Jareth Valar mentioned, there's a talent for that.

Good catch on the "Master Pilot" talent. Hadn't read it / interpreted it like that - duh.

In Mech Warrior/BattleTech there is the concept of an Alpha Strike! which is a cool concept in theory . . .

But as a GM, I don't allow characters to use more than one weapon system at a time. (Also the Master Pilot talent isn't available to my players).

In 'verse, I haven't seen any vehicles that were designed to do that. And for the same reason you shouldn't do an Alpha Strike in BattleTech you shouldn't do one in Star Wars.

We basically have three types of weapons (bear with me here) in Star Wars: Lasers/Blasters, Ion Weapons, and Guided weapons (Missiles and Torpedoes). These three weapons behave differently.

Missiles and Torpedoes (for practical purposes) require a target lock before releasing them effectively. While the other direct fire weapons don't need that. However the Direct Fire weapons need to be aimed, quite unlike the guided weapons.

And the Ion Weapons and Lasers travel at different speeds (Ion Beams have historically been slower). So if you're aiming weapons for an Alpha Strike and you're leading for the Blasters, then you'll miss with the Ion Cannons, (and visa versa).

So from a perspective of targeting, Alpha Strikes aren't viable. (Mech Warrior mechanically represents this well too as Alpha Strikes are rarely employed because each weapon system had a different drop and aim/lead points. In Mech Warrior the only time you should use an Alpha Strike is when you have a relatively close and immobile opponent). Star Wars has the same issue with it's three primary weapons too, IF Alpha Strikes were possible at all.

The other issue is that the three weapons in Star Wars do different things. Blasters affect HT and Ion Weapons affect SS. If you want to capture a ship, firing blasters is risky, and you shouldn't fire them while employing Ion Cannons! And conversely if you're trying to blow up the opponent, adding Ion Damage won't help.

So for very practical reasons, no. A single pilot can't Alpha Strike with all of their weapons.

9 minutes ago, Mark Caliber said:

In 'verse, I haven't seen any vehicles that were designed to do that. And for the same reason you shouldn't do an Alpha Strike in BattleTech you shouldn't do one in Star Wars.

The B-Wing is where this thought process started. They have forward firing torps, autoblaster, ion cannons, and a heavy laser cannon. There is a scene in "Alphabet Squadron" (so its "canon".... not that I put much weight in that) where a B-Wing pilot pours on all of her weapons' in a single pass at a target. It's very parallel to the "alpha strike" concept - particularly in WHY she is taking the risk to her ship by attacking like that.

Yeah, it makes sense for the B-Wing to be programmed with Alpha Strike capabilities due to it's role as and Anti Cap ship. And in the video game "X-Wing" you could cycle weapons quickly enough that you could almost emulate an Alpha Strike.

But the B-Wing isn't a viable dog fighter. But at the same time the video game didn't try to emulate the Auto Cannon (which is a failing of that game, because the B-Wing OBVIOUSLY has the autocannon).

Hrm. This is a good point of thought for me to check out. I think I'll need to rethink and redesign the B-Wing in my SWRPG. (But I have time to do that because the B-Wing is in the late design/early prototype phase in my campaign).

Yeah, I think this makes this question relevant for me too as the B-Wing probably SHOULD have an Alpha-Strike capability . . .

But to advance this topic. One of the rules that I picked up recently is that if you have a weapons system with a Link:3 quality I have the pilot/gunner add 2 advantages to their result which can be used to activate the linked quality.

That said, I think I'd still roll each weapon system with a different dice pool for each weapon, but maybe add one or two purple for each additional weapon system fired during an Alpha Strike.

Hmmm. I'm open to options.

Thoughts?

20 hours ago, Mark Caliber said:

That said, I think I'd still roll each weapon system with a different dice pool for each weapon, but maybe add one or two purple for each additional weapon system fired during an Alpha Strike.

My big problem with this is that, outside of talents, we only ever see one combat check regardless of the number of weapons fired. TWC, Linked, Auto-Fire, Concentrated Barrage, etc are all one combat check with options for spending advantage for additional hits or damage. It's all one dice roll, because adding more dice rolls causes a lot of 'lag time' at the table and should be relegated to specific and limited circumstances.

10 minutes ago, c__beck said:

My big problem with this is that, outside of talents, we only ever see one combat check regardless of the number of weapons fired. TWC, Linked, Auto-Fire, Concentrated Barrage, etc are all one combat check with options for spending advantage for additional hits or damage. It's all one dice roll, because adding more dice rolls causes a lot of 'lag time' at the table and should be relegated to specific and limited circumstances.

Well, as I come around to answering my own question.... perhaps it can be handled in the same way as firing two pistols? (a) increase difficulty by +1 purple for each additional weapon system being fired; (b) declare "primary" weapon system; (c) each additional hit costs 2x ADV (or a single Triumph)... that applies to any "linked" weapons in the particular weapon system as well. The PC would have to roll a poodoo-ton of advantages (or Triumphs) to produce multiple hits. And the higher the difficulty (not to mention Shields of the target), the more unlikely that is.

Which makes it disadvantageous for a PC to attempt - unless they are betting on a spectacular roll. Which DOES create a memorable event at the table!

6 minutes ago, Khyrith said:

perhaps it can be handled in the same way as firing two pistols? (a) increase difficulty by +1 purple for each additional weapon system being fired;

My only gripe with this is that we don't actually know if it's +P per additional weapon, +P for more than one weapon, +P for each doubling of weapons or something else. With only one data point (+P for two weapons) there isn't enough to extrapolate.

7 minutes ago, Khyrith said:

(c) each additional hit costs 2x ADV (or a single Triumph)... that applies to any "linked" weapons in the particular weapon system as well. The PC would have to roll a poodoo-ton of advantages (or Triumphs) to produce multiple hits. And the higher the difficulty (not to mention Shields of the target), the more unlikely that is.

And this is exactly why I think that handling it as a talent is the best option. Firing multiple weapons is indeed the exception, not the rule. So it should be an exception to be able to do it. A 10 XP or 15 XP talent feels right.

Alpha Strike

Once per encounter, you may flip a Destiny Point to perform the Alpha Strike manoeuvre. This manoeuvre allows you to perform a combat check. You may still not fire a weapon more than once per turn.

Or something like that. It doesn't feel like something that should be an option to someone not trained to do so (as was pointed out by @Mark Caliber , above).

That is already a talent with Master Pilot, which allows you to use a Maneuver to perform an Action.

5 minutes ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

That is already a talent with Master Pilot, which allows you to use a Maneuver to perform an Action.

Right. But I swear I saw someone say that they don't allow that talent, so I was offering an alternative. But now that I say as much, I can't find where I saw it. Might have been a different thread GM not allowing something else.

As is usually the best option: ignore me and carry on 😜

22 hours ago, Mark Caliber said:

But as a GM, I don't allow characters to use more than one weapon system at a time. (Also the Master Pilot talent isn't available to my players).

This?

10 minutes ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

This?

YES THAT!

Thank you!

Yep, my players can't pick up Clone or Clone Pilot Talent trees. Heck we don't even have access to those talent trees.

And to further disincentivize my players, they're already bogged down with (on average) 5-7 talent trees already AND ( and? ) none of them are pilots. (Okay we have one Duros . . . ).

And this isn't a capability that I'm interested in permitting, with the exception of the B-Wing. Which (based on historical precedence) should be able to do an Alpha strike.

And I've got no issues making up new rules. (I'm up to 9 major revisions already). So we're not quibbling over what 'can' I do, the question is 'how' to do this well.

As I think about this, I'm planning on applying this as a "weapon" or "ship" quality specifically for the B-Wing (Which I can then adapt to other appropriate ships). So I don't have to let this be available outside a "new technology."

As I see it, the issue with keeping all of the weapons for an Alpha Strike in a single dice pool is that each weapon has different qualities that affect the dice pool. I'm also using the Weapon Targeting Quality (I actually abbreviate it WTS, inexplicably) so the accuracy of an auto cannon is very different from Proton Torpedoes. Ergo, I don't think a single weapon attack dice pool works (for me). Sure it's 'simple' and if that works for you, awesome.

(That said) one other weakness of FFG Vehicle Combat is that the more weapons that are grouped with a Linked or Autofire quality actually are less likely to have additional hits as that number increases. X-Wings (& Quad Cannons) with the Link 3 Quality will almost never hit because you need six advantages to spend to get those extra hits to count. And with most dice pools if you can get six advantage results from that dice pool, you've also yielded zero successes so . . . you still don't hit .

So I like separate dice pools for that reason . . . That and I"m still used to GURPS where a single combat resolution could have as many as four dice rolls to resolve:

1. Attacker Rolls Skill check To Hit.
2. Defender Rolls Skill check to avoid Hit.
3. Attacker Rolls hit location (Optional).
4. Attacker Rolls damage.

So three dice pools isn't a problem for me.

Hmmmmm, Give the B-Wing the ability for the Pilot to perform a Alpha Strike Maneuver which allows pilot to attack with all weapons? And I think add a single P dice to each pool.

I'm open to thoughts, suggestions, and comments.

Were it me, I would restrict the 'Alpha Strike' firing to targets of 2 or more Sil greater than the attacker - it's the sort of thing used against capital ships and other big targets, not "I really wanna kill this fighter/shuttle dead".

I would apply said restriction in addition to ship-based restrictions, which would only allow the B-Wing and similar low-crew, heavy-firepower ships (Skipray, TIE Defender, etc.).

4 hours ago, Subhntr said:

Were it me, I would restrict the 'Alpha Strike' firing to targets of 2 or more Sil greater than the attacker - it's the sort of thing used against capital ships and other big targets, not "I really wanna kill this fighter/shuttle dead".

I respectfully disagree. As a ship designer I put a lot of weapons on a ship so they can all be used, not so you can only fire one of them at a time. I routinely grouped weapons in the TIE fighter/x-wing games and in games like mechwarrior exactly to kill this fighter/shuttle/mech dead.

On 2/26/2020 at 7:15 PM, Khyrith said:

Well, as I come around to answering my own question.... perhaps it can be handled in the same way as firing two pistols? (a) increase difficulty by +1 purple for each additional weapon system being fired; (b) declare "primary" weapon system; (c) each additional hit costs 2x ADV (or a single Triumph)... that applies to any "linked" weapons in the particular weapon system as well. The PC would have to roll a poodoo-ton of advantages (or Triumphs) to produce multiple hits. And the higher the difficulty (not to mention Shields of the target), the more unlikely that is.

It seems a proper concept. As for the aforenentioned examples, a fighter unloading everything to a capital ship seems reasonable as this kind of barrage required less precision from the attacker, already represented in the silhouette differences that give the difficulty. So using the 2handed weapon method would increase the difficulty, but still would be considerable chance for a bomber run, but would be extremely hard for dogfighting.

Also, I'd go with +P per weapon. Others have already stated, that it's hardto proc even your main guns properties, adding P/weapon increases your chances to miss (which is fine, looking at the aiming problems others have pointed out) and decreases the chances to activate your qualities. Doesn't seems problematic.