10 hours ago, meffo said:

i can really see where you're coming from with this and i would like to agree, but i don't. you're right, but i don't think you make the right conclusions. even if your argument makes sense, it's not consistent with the rules as written.

executing a maneuver is not just executing a maneuver. it's defined in the rules that certain steps have to be followed, including the check difficulty step. if other effects take place during one of these steps, they occur while executing a maneuver, no matter that a movement occuring during that timing is not considered a maneuver.

would certainly be nice to get this clarified, though. 100% agree with that.

The check difficulty step is the last step in the maneuver process and must be done otherwise Seventh Sister could not exchange the stress token for a tractor token. Under the section of stress, the rules say a ship is stressed if it has at least one stress token.

The problem I'm having is this. How long after the check difficulty step does the maneuver phase continue? If it was a straight up red maneuver it would end with the stress token. If Seventh Sister was involved without a relocation, it would end with the tractor token. Why does it continue until after the relocation from the tractor token?

I realize we're abusing an equine corpse. It's just irritating that what should be a simple interaction is generating so much discussion.

Ok, venting done.

15 minutes ago, Stoneface said:

The check difficulty step is the last step in the maneuver process and must be done otherwise Seventh Sister could not exchange the stress token for a tractor token.

Erm, no. That applies to player abilities and other game effects, not Phase steps. Phase steps are when things happen, not what is happening during that step.

8 hours ago, Stoneface said:

The problem I'm having is this. How long after the check difficulty step does the maneuver phase continue? If it was a straight up red maneuver it would end with the stress token. If Seventh Sister was involved without a relocation, it would end with the tractor token. Why does it continue until after the relocation from the tractor token?

why not?

in general, nothing else than adding or removing stress happens during the check difficulty step, depending on whether the maneuver being executed is red or blue.

if other effects happen as a result of this, they will all take place during the check difficulty step.

in the seventh sister scenario, her replacement effect will take place at the same timing as the stress would have been gained. if she assigned a jam token rather than a tractor token, that would be resolved during the check difficulty step.

if she does assign a tractor token, that would also be resolved before moving on with the rest of the activation phase. if assigning the tractor token would trigger additional effects, those would be resolved as well (such as getting tractored onto a proximity mine, captain jostero getting to shoot the ship because of that, triggering deadmans switch because of getting destroyed as a result of that or what have you). i know that's an extreme scenario, but that would all occur while the ship is executing a maneuver, since it would be during the check difficulty step.

such are the wonders of space combat. a lot of things can happen during a very short time.

• FACT: Seventh Sister happens during (not after) the Execute Maneuver step.
• OPINION #1: Because it happens during that step , the Perform Action step is skipped if a ship is moved onto an asteroid.
• OPINION #2: Since it does not happen during the actual execution of a maneuver , but rather a separate effect during that step, the "skip action step" effects of the asteroid do not apply.

Here's how I'm interpreting it working, broken down into a sort of nested series of steps for one ship's activation (I should point out that I'm in the "no action" camp here):

1. BEGIN SHIP ACTIVATION
   1. "Before you activate" effects trigger.
2. EXECUTE MANEUVER : The ship performs these two steps:
   1. Maneuver Ship: Use the maneuver templates to move the ship.
      1. The ship executes a red maneuver (let's say, a 4-speed Koiogran Turn), and lands next to Seventh Sister.
   2. Check Difficulty
      1. The ship would receive a stress token for performing a red maneuver.
         1. SEVENTH SISTER TRIGGER: Spends a force to replace the stress token with a tractor token.
         2. The ship becomes tractored, and is relocated onto an asteroid. It rolls for damage. Effects will happen later.
   3. Execute Maneuver step ends
   4. "After (fully) executing a maneuver" effects trigger.
      1. Because the ship overlapped an obstacle while moving, it rolls for damage.
      2. Because the ship overlapped an obstacle while executing a maneuver, it skips its perform action step. (This is the function in debate)
3. PERFORM ACTION
   1. The ship may perform an action.
      1. This step is skipped because of the asteroid effect suffered in the Execute Maneuver step.
   2. Perform Action step ends.
4. END SHIP ACTIVATION

12 hours ago, emeraldbeacon said:

• FACT: Seventh Sister happens during (not after) the Execute Maneuver step.
• OPINION #1: Because it happens during that step , the Perform Action step is skipped if a ship is moved onto an asteroid.
• OPINION #2: Since it does not happen during the actual execution of a maneuver , but rather a separate effect during that step, the "skip action step" effects of the asteroid do not apply.

Here's how I'm interpreting it working, broken down into a sort of nested series of steps for one ship's activation (I should point out that I'm in the "no action" camp here):

1. BEGIN SHIP ACTIVATION
   1. "Before you activate" effects trigger.
2. EXECUTE MANEUVER : The ship performs these two steps:
   1. Maneuver Ship: Use the maneuver templates to move the ship.
      1. The ship executes a red maneuver (let's say, a 4-speed Koiogran Turn), and lands next to Seventh Sister.
   2. Check Difficulty
      1. The ship would receive a stress token for performing a red maneuver.
         1. SEVENTH SISTER TRIGGER: Spends a force to replace the stress token with a tractor token.
         2. The ship becomes tractored, and is relocated onto an asteroid. It rolls for damage.
   3. Obstacle Check
      1. Because the ship overlapped an obstacle while executing a maneuver, it skips its perform action step.
   4. Execute Maneuver step ends
   5. "After (fully) executing a maneuver" effects trigger.
3. PERFORM ACTION
   1. The ship may perform an action.
      1. This step is skipped because of the asteroid effect suffered in the Execute Maneuver step.
   2. Perform Action step ends.
4. END SHIP ACTIVATION

Not saying i agree or disagree with you, but you have an error.

It wouldn't roll for damage until during your "obstacle check". Not during the tractored effect. Otherwise, you are triggering the secondary check for obstacles, which doesn't look at the execute maneuver.

I understand that when played out, it looks the same, but as you have it laid out, its not.

10 hours ago, Lyianx said:

Not saying i agree or disagree with you, but you have an error.

It wouldn't roll for damage until during your "obstacle check". Not during the tractored effect. Otherwise, you are triggering the secondary check for obstacles, which doesn't look at the execute maneuver.

I understand that when played out, it looks the same, but as you have it laid out, its not.

Good point. I'll edit the first post to correct that.

With the latest errata, this question has been answered (I've edited my initial question to include the answer there also).

Obstacles now have a special section on what happens if you overlap while not executing a maneuver:

So in that case the ship will get it's action even if tractored onto a asteroid or a Gas cloud.

53 minutes ago, Funkstar said:

With the latest errata, this question has been answered (I've edited my initial question to include the answer there also).

Obstacles now have a special section on what happens if you overlap while not executing a maneuver:

So in that case the ship will get it's action even if tractored onto a asteroid or a Gas cloud.

it seems to me like you missed the point of the discussion. the point being that seventh sister giving you a tractor instead of a stress happens while you're executing a maneuver, since the check difficulty step is part of executing a maneuver - and that's when you gain the stress from a red maneuver, which is replaced by you gaining a tractor token from seventh sister's ability and resolving that. meaning that even if you didn't overlap the obstacle from your maneuver, being tractored by seventh sister's ability still happens while you're executing a maneuver - and therefore overlapping an asteroid or gas cloud would make you miss your perform action step.

the section on what happens if you overlap while you're not executing a maneuver was always there. it's just the part on gas clouds that is new.

I can't believe my own mistake there, I just completely ignored that second paragraph when initially checking the rules. I was sure this was being added for clarification, I'm very ashamed now.

I guess this just puts me over to the "the ship gets it's action" camp, which is a complete 180° from my previous stance.

5 hours ago, Funkstar said:

I can't believe my own mistake there, I just completely ignored that second paragraph when initially checking the rules. I was sure this was being added for clarification, I'm very ashamed now.

I guess this just puts me over to the "the ship gets it's action" camp, which is a complete 180° from my previous stance.

i totally get where you're coming from. it's a bit technical to say the least.

also, i'm no longer sure which way i'm leaning. it seems that RAW both ways to interpret this makes sense, even if strictly, seventh sisters effect takes place while executing a maneuver.

i dare not assume FFG's intentions.

Why is the maneuver not completed by the time 7th sister is applied?

Why is the maneuver completed by the time 7th sister is applied?

5 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

Why is the maneuver not completed by the time 7th sister is applied?

Why is the maneuver completed by the time 7th sister is applied?

and that's pretty much it. to execute a maneuver you follow the steps. seventh sister happens during the check difficulty step. it's while executing a maneuver because that's one of the steps you follow while executing a maneuver. it's not while executing a maneuver since it's not not during the maneuver ship step.

also, movement while executing a maneuvers rarely (never?) happens in any other way than actually maneuvering and there are specific rules for what happens when overlapping or moving through an obstacle while you're not executing a maneuver.

it's hair splitting. you're not maneuvering, but it's while you're executing a maneuver.

technically, the rules don't say any step has to be completed, they just say "while executing a maneuver" and don't define it further than that.

sorry about the mediocre images, but i'm on my phone.

1 hour ago, meffo said:

also, movement rarely (never?) happens in any other way than actually maneuvering while executing a maneuver

um.. Boost? Barrel Roll? Tractor? Decloak? And im pretty sure the rotation from Landing Struts. All of those count as movement, but not maneuvers.

Game effects occur before player abilities happen.

3 minutes ago, eRADicator67 said:

Game effects occur before player abilities happen.

While true, the gaining of stress from a maneuver happens during a game effect, and a player ability is causing a replacement effect to that game effect. So it doesn't really have any bearing on this question.

Indeed. But it leads us further down the rabbit hole. There are a lot of separate steps involved here happening at mostly the same time and I'm trying to nail exact positions of everything within that tiny window. The timing of the tractor boost/roll is within execution of a maneuver but is not the execution of a maneuver (according to Replacement Effects since the stress would be received during Check Difficulty during execution of a maneuver). Oh dear. I'm glad no one plays this here. I assume someone has sent in the query to FFG.

2 hours ago, Lyianx said:

um.. Boost? Barrel Roll? Tractor? Decloak? And im pretty sure the rotation from Landing Struts. All of those count as movement, but not maneuvers.

ah, i wasn't clear enough. none of those happen while executing a maneuver.

rephrased the sentence.

1 minute ago, meffo said:

ah, i wasn't clear enough. none of those happen while executing a maneuver.

It could with something like Pattern Analyzer if you boosted/barrel rolled, as that would happen before the check difficulty step, but still during the execute maneuver step.

4 minutes ago, Lyianx said:

It could with something like Pattern Analyzer if you boosted/barrel rolled, as that would happen before the check difficulty step, but still during the execute maneuver step.

very true. pattern analyzer + collision detector could give you the same situation if you boost or barrel roll without spending a charge off of collision detector.

So, for now assuming that 7th Sister happens while executing a maneuver. What other situations are there that could give some hints? The PA is a good one.

What about a Quadjumper tractoring a ship onto a rock? Does that ship lose its action? Or not, as per the AdaptiveAilerons precedent?

What happens if a Nantex tractors itself onto an asteroid?

Are there more?

@GreenDragoon

The Quadjumper happens during the perform action step, so its clearly not during the execute maneuver step.

By a similar stance, the Nantex happens specificity after you execute a maneuver, so its out of that step as well.

Neither run into the same contradiction as 7th sis.

4 minutes ago, Lyianx said:

Neither run into the same contradiction as 7th sis.

Yes but at this point it might be useful to look at different but at least somewhat similar cases, that was at least the idea.

Because it looks like we're stuck if only staring at 7th sister

To summarize my take on the matter after this interesting thread:

A ship executes a maneuver and gains a stress during step 2 of executing a maneuver

Quote

Maneuver
[...] A ship can execute a maneuver by resolving the following steps in order:
1. Maneuver Ship: [...]
2. Check Diffculty: [...]

This triggers 7th sister, replacing the stress with a tractor:

Quote

Replacement effects
Some abilities are substitutive in nature—they replace how an effect would normally resolve. These abilities use the words “would” and “instead.”
• Replacement effects are not added to the end of the ability queue as they are resolved at the timing of the effect they are replacing

Therefore the ship gets trtactored during step 2 of executing a maneuver:

Quote

Tractor
[...] The frst time a ship becomes tractored each round, the player whose effect applied the tractor token may choose one of the following effects:
[barrel roll or boost]
This move can cause the ship to move through or overlap an obstacle.

The ship moves through an obstacle while executing a maneuver and therefore skips its Perform Action step this round:

Quote

Obstacles
[...] While a ship executes a maneuver , if it moves through or overlaps an obstacle, it executes its maneuver as normal but suffers an effect based on the type of obstacle:
[Then the ship skips its Perform Action step this round]
While a ship is not executing a maneuver , if it moves through or overlaps an obstacle, it suffers an effect based on the type of obstacle (after resolving its move, if applicable):
[...]

The problem for this (IMO) uninteded interaction lies with the rules for the obstacles which would have been just fine by referencing only step 1 of executing a maneuver:

Quote

Obstacles
[...] While a ship maneuvers , if it moves through or overlaps an obstacle, it moves as normal but suffers an effect based on the type of obstacle:
[Then the ship skips its Perform Action step this round]
While a ship not maneuvers , if it moves through or overlaps an obstacle, it suffers an effect based on the type of obstacle (after resolving its move, if applicable):
[...]

But this is a horrible wording, so maybe the better fix would be to move the Check difficulty step outside of executing a maneuver...

In the Seventh Sister case, doesn’t the fact that it was determined that a stress token should be gained mean that the check difficulty step was complete, and therefore, the maneuver was complete as well (escaping the “while executing a maneuver” rule of obstacles)? The game effect of a stress for a red token was resolved in the check difficulty step, in order to complete that step, the token is gained but substituted in the process. That substitution was a card effect that resolves after the game effect of the stress resolved. Now a new game effect, tractor, needs to be resolved because the ship isn’t stressed but tractored. Trying to help pinpoint the logic. Offering this as a possible interpretation.

42 minutes ago, Singulativ said:

The problem for this (IMO) uninteded interaction lies with the rules for the obstacles which would have been just fine by referencing only step 1 of executing a maneuver:

Quote

Obstacles
[...] While a ship maneuvers , if it moves through or overlaps an obstacle, it moves as normal but suffers an effect based on the type of obstacle:
[Then the ship skips its Perform Action step this round]
While a ship not maneuvers , if it moves through or overlaps an obstacle, it suffers an effect based on the type of obstacle (after resolving its move, if applicable):
[...]

But this is a horrible wording, so maybe the better fix would be to move the Check difficulty step outside of executing a maneuver...

It goes deeper than that im afraid.

RR pg 32

Quote

Q: Do TIE Strikers (and Reapers) skip their perform action step if they overlap an asteroid or another ship with their Aileron’s ability maneuver?

A: No. It is only during the Execute Maneuver step that a ship skips its Perform Action step for overlapping a ship or obstacle.

Ailerons ability muddies the waters of that in its own way and would conflict with your suggestion.