15 hours ago, Lyianx said:

There is also this question.

IS the Check Difficulty step complete the moment the token is gained, regardless what having that token triggers?

I would say yes(soft agree), gaining/removing the token is the last thing that normally occurs during the Check Difficulty step, BUT for purposes of timing, the movement caused by becoming tractored is concurrent with gaining the token, not after gaining the token. The movement is added into the Queue in the same timing window as when the token was received.

Quote from RR1.0.6.1 p20: "The first time a ship becomes tractored each round, the player whose effect applied the tractor token may choose one of the following effects:"

EDIT : @Hiemfire pointed out the implication of different timing in the Debris overlap rule from p14 which clearly separates the timing of Debris stress gain (after Check Difficulty) and roll for crit (after executing maneuver) so I think that further indicates that After triggers based on a step of a process still happen before the end of that full process, at least in the case of maneuvers.

10 hours ago, Lyianx said:

There is also this question.

IS the Check Difficulty step complete the moment the token is gained, regardless what having that token triggers?

i don't think it matters, but i would say no. seventh sister's ability is a replacement effect. the token is gained and if the ship becomes tractored, it is resolved immediately. if the check difficulty step was completed, the ship would no longer be executing a maneuver and would be able to perform actions even if tractored onto an obstacle.



also worth noting is that moving through or overlapping debris assigns a stress token after the check difficulty step, which should mean it is done after a maneuver has been executed, meaning that a ship tractored onto an asteroid with seventh sister's ability after having maneuvered through or overlapped a debris field would still get its perform action step.

4 hours ago, meffo said:

also worth noting is that moving through or overlapping debris assigns a stress token after the check difficulty step, which should mean it is done after a maneuver has been executed, meaning that a ship tractored onto an asteroid with seventh sister's ability after having maneuvered through or overlapped a debris field would still get its perform action step.

̶G̶o̶o̶d̶ ̶n̶o̶t̶e̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶m̶a̶k̶e̶ ̶t̶h̶a̶t̶ ̶d̶i̶s̶t̶i̶n̶c̶t̶i̶o̶n̶.̶ ̶I̶ ̶h̶o̶p̶e̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶t̶i̶m̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶f̶o̶r̶ ̶g̶a̶i̶n̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶s̶t̶r̶e̶s̶s̶ ̶f̶r̶o̶m̶ ̶D̶e̶b̶r̶i̶s̶ ̶i̶s̶ ̶n̶o̶t̶ ̶i̶n̶ ̶d̶i̶s̶p̶u̶t̶e̶.̶

Edit: See Hiemfire's post below mine. They quoted the applicable rule which clearly separates the timing of Debris stress gain (after Check Difficulty) and roll for crit (after executing maneuver).

And THAT means it can use that action to barrel roll off the asteroid. 🙂

nice!

7 minutes ago, nitrobenz said:

Good note to make that distinction. I hope the timing for gaining stress from Debris is not in dispute.

"• Debris Cloud: After the Check Difficulty step, the ship gains one
stress token. After executing the maneuver, it rolls one attack die. On a
result, the ship suffers one damage."

I want to say no, but it does say after the Check Difficulty step for the stress part. The die roll is after the maneuver is executed. Both are specifically called out meaning they're separate timings. So "After Check Difficulty step" =/ "After executing a maneuver".

Another question came up tonight:

guri uses her virago-title to perform a red boost, gaining a stress token.

And 7th sister is nearby in a shuttle.

BUT: seven sister has spend her force charge during this round!!

what happens??

- both the virago boost AND the recovering of the force charge are 'during the end phase'.

- Game effects are handled before player effects: so the force charge would recover first and THEN the virago boost happens? —>thus 7th sister HAS a force charge to spend?

thanks for help!

...quite confused I am (and this should NOT be the way...)

edit: shall I best start a new thread? My question is related, but adds another dimension... 🤔

24 minutes ago, Tellonius said:

And THAT means it can use that action to barrel roll off the asteroid. 🙂

nice!

To make sure people are clear, this is off topic from the original question. If the stress was gained from a Debris Cloud it is clearly gained after the Check Stress step, which is the last step of Executing a Maneuver, so you are past all "during maneuver" triggers/effects.

The original question (paraphrased) of this thread was, " While my opponent executes a red maneuver, if I use Seventh Sister to replace the Stress token (gained during the Check Difficulty step) with a Tractor token and use the Tractored effect to move them onto an Asteroid does that count as overlapping an Asteroid while a ship executes a maneuver?"

EDIT: @Hiemfire raised a good point by quoting the applicable rules text. The timing of whether "after Check Difficulty" automatically moves into "after Maneuver" apparently is not entirely clear. Shame on me for not re-reading the rules before making my answer.

7 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

I want to say no, but it does say after the Check Difficulty step for the stress part. The die roll is after the maneuver is executed. Both are specifically called out meaning they're separate timings. So "After Check Difficulty step" =/ "After executing a maneuver".

A keen observation, shame on me for not re-reading the applicable rule before posting! I will edit my above response to point to yours @Hiemfire .

9 minutes ago, nitrobenz said:

A keen observation, shame on me for not re-reading the applicable rule before posting! I will edit my above response to point to yours @Hiemfire .

Doesn't help that with both timings called out it implies the "after the Check Difficulty step" timing is still part of executing a maneuver. It'd say "After executing the maneuver, the ship gains 1 stress and rolls 1 attack die" if the gaining of stress from the debris cloud was separate from executing the maneuver.

23 minutes ago, Tellonius said:

Game effects are handled before player effects: so the force charge would recover first and THEN the virago boost happens? —>thus 7th sister HAS a force charge to spend?

This question is somewhat similar to Lieutenant Tavson plus Electronic Baffle.

In that thread the agreement was leaning toward regaining charges being a game effect which by default happens before player effects like activating an end of round ability (Electronic Baffle damage or Virago Boost) as per this line from RR 1.0.6.1 P3:

"• If there are game effects that share the same timing window as a player’s ability, the game effect is resolved first."

1 minute ago, nitrobenz said:

In that thread the agreement was leaning toward regaining charges being a game effect which by default happens before player effects like activating an end of round ability (Electronic Baffle damage or Virago Boost) as per this line from RR 1.0.6.1 P3:

"• If there are game effects that share the same timing window as a player’s ability, the game effect is resolved first."

Sadly in application allot of the tourney judges follow the unofficial rulings which has player effects take place before the removal of round tokens and the regaining of charges... Tav and QD scared them.

@Lyianx , @Maui. , @Stoneface any changes in your leanings on the original question? Or are we still split as a discussion group?

Here's what I submitted to the official rules questions form :

While my opponent executes a red maneuver, if I use Seventh Sister to replace the Stress token (gained during the Check Difficulty step) with a Tractor token and use the Tractored effect to move them onto an Asteroid does that count as overlapping an Asteroid while a ship executes a maneuver?

2 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

Sadly in application allot of the tourney judges follow the unofficial rulings which has player effects take place before the removal of round tokens and the regaining of charges... Tav and QD scared them.

Interesting. I haven't been to any serious events lately, but that rule interaction looks pretty clear and I never saw that combo as such a terrible threat. Firstly it costs a full 1/3 of your list with no other upgrades considered and you cannot perform an action you already performed that round so it's essentially paying points and a damage to "save" an action for next round. That might have been a unique ability at the initial release of 2e, but now it's a staple ability of several ships/archetypes starting with Kraken (tactical relay) which essentially saves/doubles up to 3 actions per turn!

I think it's time for those judges to reevaluate the perceived threat of Baffling Tavson.

16 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

...allot of the tourney judges follow the unofficial rulings...

Off topic: what is the "unofficial rulings" based off of these days? And is there a challenge process in place?

1 minute ago, nitrobenz said:

Off topic: what is the "unofficial rulings" based of of these days? And is there a challenge process in place?

Consensus of the participating judges. As for a challenge process, not directly with them that I've found. If a direct FFG ruling or FAQ contradicts what is in the unofficial rulings they follow the official ruling/FAQ.

Unofficial rulings doc: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1cSNaoKAThwjDhjjixO7u-MZZ3l5xu-LgKnRohhTIkYk/mobilebasic

On 12/22/2019 at 9:09 AM, meffo said:

. the token is gained and if the ship becomes tractored, it is resolved immediately.

Im not sure I agree that its immediate. There is some.... ambiguity as to if being tractored is a player ability, or a game effect, thanks to the latest Nantex rulings stating that you must rotate the turret before following through with the tracored movement, strongly suggesting its a player ability (even tho, as of this post, there is no other way to trigger being tractored outside of player abilities).

If that is indeed the case, then 7th sister would place the token as a player effect, being tractored (being a player ability) would be put into the queue, but be forced to wait until the check difficulty step (game effect) is complete , as gaining the token itself, fulfils the timing window replacement.

Do i agree with this? I really don't know. I'm just putting that possibility out there. I'm still not really sure which 'camp' i fall into on this.

On 12/22/2019 at 2:32 PM, Hiemfire said:

Consensus of the participating judges. As for a challenge process, not directly with them that I've found. If a direct FFG ruling or FAQ contradicts what is in the unofficial rulings they follow the official ruling/FAQ.

Unofficial rulings doc: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1cSNaoKAThwjDhjjixO7u-MZZ3l5xu-LgKnRohhTIkYk/mobilebasic

I've learned to ignore that document (or at the very least, take it with a mountain of salt), as the last time i looked at it (few months ago) it had some very glaring errors and poor judgment calls in it, all of which FFG eventually clarifications, made incorrect and non-valid. Which tells me that document appears to not be thought about logically, or even attempts to interpret FFG's intent. Only what their strict wording says (which as we all know, does not always match their intent).

12 minutes ago, Lyianx said:

Only what their strict wording says (which as we all know, does not always match their intent).

I can't help laughing at this part. They base their rulings on what ever they deem to be "fair" with the Ability Queue in the End Phase being a prime example of them flipping RAW the bird.

No, they base their rulings on how *they* want the game to work, not how they believe FFG wants the game to work. And yes, their End Phase ruling was utter garbage.

On 12/22/2019 at 2:13 PM, nitrobenz said:

@Lyianx , @Maui. , @Stoneface any changes in your leanings on the original question? Or are we still split as a discussion group?

Here's what I submitted to the official rules questions form :

While my opponent executes a red maneuver, if I use Seventh Sister to replace the Stress token (gained during the Check Difficulty step) with a Tractor token and use the Tractored effect to move them onto an Asteroid does that count as overlapping an Asteroid while a ship executes a maneuver?

I haven't changed my position. I've re-read all the arguments and the rules and here's what I came up with.

Even though the tractor token is assigned during the maneuver portion of the activation phase, the resulting boost or barrel roll is not considered a maneuver but a move. RRG page 6 BOOST, 5th bullet point or page 6 BARREL ROLL , 5th bullet point.

As to being able to take an action after being moved onto an asteroid, it is allowed. See OBSTACLES page 14, 3rd paragraph, 1st bullet point.

I think but could be wrong, that most of the 'no action' arguments stem from the fact that the boost or barrel roll happens during the maneuver portion of the activation phase. Maybe they're correct. But FFG made the distinction between moves and maneuvers and added a section under obstacles as to what happens when a ship lands on a asteroid or debris field from a move. This move has to be forced upon them by an external ability because by the rules a ship cannot boost or barrel roll onto an obstacle as an action.

That's my reasoning with proper citations. Hopefully FFG responds quickly to your submission.

3 hours ago, Lyianx said:

Im not sure I agree that its immediate. There is some.... ambiguity as to if being tractored is a player ability, or a game effect, thanks to the latest Nantex rulings stating that you must rotate the turret before following through with the tracored movement, strongly suggesting its a player ability (even tho, as of this post, there is no other way to trigger being tractored outside of player abilities).

If that is indeed the case, then 7th sister would place the token as a player effect, being tractored (being a player ability) would be put into the queue, but be forced to wait until the check difficulty step (game effect) is complete , as gaining the token itself, fulfils the timing window replacement.

Do i agree with this? I really don't know. I'm just putting that possibility out there. I'm still not really sure which 'camp' i fall into on this.

immediate sounds a bit extreme, but i do think it's pretty much true. becoming tractored is not a player ability, since it's not an ability at all, even though it's often a result of an ability.

i don't agree that it's suggested by the nantex ruling that becoming tractored is a player ability at all. it's only suggested that an effect currently being resolved must resolve fully before resolving other effects, even when those other effects are a direct result of the effect currently being resolved.

in fact, the ruling on the nantex pinpoint tractor array clearly states that becoming tractored is a game effect.

also, i find it hard to believe that the check difficulty step is a game effect in and of itself, because language. i've always interpreted it as being a timing rather than an effect.

3 hours ago, Stoneface said:

I haven't changed my position. I've re-read all the arguments and the rules and here's what I came up with.

Even though the tractor token is assigned during the maneuver portion of the activation phase, the resulting boost or barrel roll is not considered a maneuver but a move. RRG page 6 BOOST, 5th bullet point or page 6 BARREL ROLL , 5th bullet point.

As to being able to take an action after being moved onto an asteroid, it is allowed. See OBSTACLES page 14, 3rd paragraph, 1st bullet point.

I think but could be wrong, that most of the 'no action' arguments stem from the fact that the boost or barrel roll happens during the maneuver portion of the activation phase. Maybe they're correct. But FFG made the distinction between moves and maneuvers and added a section under obstacles as to what happens when a ship lands on a asteroid or debris field from a move. This move has to be forced upon them by an external ability because by the rules a ship cannot boost or barrel roll onto an obstacle as an action.

That's my reasoning with proper citations. Hopefully FFG responds quickly to your submission.

i can really see where you're coming from with this and i would like to agree, but i don't. you're right, but i don't think you make the right conclusions. even if your argument makes sense, it's not consistent with the rules as written.

executing a maneuver is not just executing a maneuver. it's defined in the rules that certain steps have to be followed, including the check difficulty step. if other effects take place during one of these steps, they occur while executing a maneuver, no matter that a movement occuring during that timing is not considered a maneuver.

would certainly be nice to get this clarified, though. 100% agree with that.

4 hours ago, meffo said:

in fact, the ruling on the nantex pinpoint tractor array clearly states that becoming tractored is a game effect.

Right, but it also clearly states that 'the game effect of becoming tractored triggers after the first time a ship becomes tractored. Most here are reading that you resolve the tractored effect when the ship becomes tractored (which would fall into your immediately timing window, where as the 'after' does not). And i understand why, as the rules do not state either when or after. It just says "the first time this happens, do this" and doesn't actually specify a timing.

Regardless, fair point.

58 minutes ago, Lyianx said:

Right, but it also clearly states that 'the game effect of becoming tractored triggers after the first time a ship becomes tractored. Most here are reading that you resolve the tractored effect when the ship becomes tractored (which would fall into your immediately timing window, where as the 'after' does not). And i understand why, as the rules do not state either when or after. It just says "the first time this happens, do this" and doesn't actually specify a timing.

Regardless, fair point.

RR, page 19, last bullet point in the Timing section:

"• After: The effect resolves immediately following the timing specified."

And the "after" used in the ruling is after the ability that applied the token causing the ship to become tractored is finished processing.

1 hour ago, Lyianx said:

Right, but it also clearly states that 'the game effect of becoming tractored triggers after the first time a ship becomes tractored. Most here are reading that you resolve the tractored effect when the ship becomes tractored (which would fall into your immediately timing window, where as the 'after' does not). And i understand why, as the rules do not state either when or after. It just says "the first time this happens, do this" and doesn't actually specify a timing.

Regardless, fair point.

if the token is gained as a replacement effect during the check difficulty step, i believe that the effect of becoming tractored should be resolved immediatetly after that - and that is still during the during the check difficulty step and therefore still while executing a maneuver.

that's just how i interpret the rules, though. i am grateful for others sharing their interpreatations, including you of course.

@Stoneface has a very interesting perspective.