Hi, I have a question about Seventh sister crew.
A ship executes a red manuver and I trigger 7th sister. The ship is small base and tracktored.
I then barrel roll it on a astroid.
Does it get the Perform Action step?

Edit: With the latest errata, this question has been answered, and I'd like to place it here on top.

Obstacles now have a special section on what happens if you overlap while not executing a maneuver:

So in that case the ship will get it's action even if tractored onto a asteroid or a Gas cloud.

Yes.

Skipping the perform Action step is specific to a ship executing a maneuver and as a result, overlapping an Asteroid. Being tractored onto it is a move while not executing a maneuver.

RR pg 14

Quote

While a ship executes a maneuver, if it moves through or overlaps an obstacle, it executes its maneuver as normal but suffers an effect based on the type of obstacle:

Asteroid: .....Then the ship skips its Perform Action step this round.

vs.

Quote

While a ship is not executing a maneuver, if it moves through or overlaps an obstacle, it suffers an effect based on the type of obstacle (after resolving its move, if applicable):

This question has been ported over from discord. The argument being made there is that the check difficulty step is part of the maneuver and therefore the tractor token (which is replacing the stress token received from the red maneuver) is also part of the maneuver, which means that you are still in the process of executing the maneuver when you get moved by the tractor token, which means that you overlapped an obstacle while executing a maneuver and therefore must skip your perform action step.

Note: I do not agree with this interpretation. I think that the tractor move is not part of the maneuver and therefore the ship does not skip its Perform Action step. BUT I also think it's muddy enough to warrant clarification from FFG

This exact question has come up before on these forums as well:

As Maui said, there are two sides to this argument and it hinges on whether or not you consider the Check Difficulty step to be part of "while a ship executes a maneuver".

(No action camp) If check difficulty is part of executing a maneuver then the forced movement caused by a tractor token gained at that point is also 'while executing a maneuver' and triggers the effect of asteroids that skips your action step. By this opinion check difficulty is the timing in the multi-step process of executing a maneuver and the tractor is an effect gained during that timing.

(Yes action camp) If check difficulty is not part of executing a maneuver then the tractor movement is also not part of the maneuver and therefore does not trigger the rule that skips the action step. By this opinion "while a ship executes a maneuver" ends with the Maneuver Ship step and Check Difficulty is not part of that process.

My problem with the Yes Action opinion is that it has far reaching implications on every single effect that has a timing of "after you execute a maneuver" because as I see it, if "while a ship executes a maneuver" ends before the Check Difficulty step that would mean "after you execute a maneuver" also triggers before the Check Difficulty step and therefore anything limited by stress that is triggered after a maneuver would still be fair game on red maneuvers (on the flip side if you are stressed before a blue maneuver you still cannot trigger those effects because you don't clear the stress until after the trigger). Examples of what would also be allowed if after maneuver triggered before Check Difficulty on a red maneuver include Jedi with Fine Tuned Controls, TIE/d or N-1 using Full Throttle and Nantex Rotate action. By extension there's also C1-10P who could perform his red evade before checking if the maneuver was blue and clearing the stress to allow his perform action step.

I argue that even if you read the rules and don't get "Check Difficulty is part of the maneuver" from the context of the writing, you should still consider playing it as such because to play the tractor as not part of the maneuver means those examples of common effects should also be played differently or else you are making an inconsistent ruling. In the interest of maintaining the order of timing for all of those abilities I argue that the (rarely used and fairly counterable) 7th Sister tractor movement is part of executing a maneuver and if it puts you on an Asteroid you should loose your Perform Action step.

I'm finding the "no action" argument more persuasive.

Really not that hard to find examples that throws the "Gets its action" group out the window...

18 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

Really not that hard to find examples that throws the "Gets its action" group out the window...

I think that kind of misses the point. I think a lot of "Yes, Action" came from a less subtle reading, rather than a different understanding of timing.

The "simple understanding" of the obstacle/skip action rule is that you skip your action if your maneuver goes over it, but if you go over it some other way, you don't skip your action. Case in point: Obstacles and TIE Strikers, which gets spelled out in the FAQ section of the Rules Reference. However, the rules conditions are "while a ship executes a maneuver" and "while not executing a maneuver." Not the kind of move, but whether it happens during the "Execute Maneuver" step . In addition, it takes a bit of non-obvious thinking to realize that Seventh Sister's whole thing happens within the "Execute Maneuver" step.

You have to dig a little bit beneath the surface to get here, but once you've done that, no-action gets pretty convincing.

3 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

I think that kind of misses the point. I think a lot of "Yes, Action" came from a less subtle reading, rather than a different understanding of timing.

The "simple understanding" of the obstacle/skip action rule is that you skip your action if your maneuver goes over it, but if you go over it some other way, you don't skip your action. Case in point: Obstacles and TIE Strikers, which gets spelled out in the FAQ section of the Rules Reference. However, the rules conditions are "while a ship executes a maneuver" and "while not executing a maneuver." Not the kind of move, but whether it happens during the "Execute Maneuver" step . In addition, it takes a bit of non-obvious thinking to realize that Seventh Sister's whole thing happens within the "Execute Maneuver" step.

You have to dig a little bit beneath the surface to get here, but once you've done that, no-action gets pretty convincing.

Then I take it that it is safe to assume that those pushing for the action to be permitted in this case also belong to the school of thought that says Reapers and Strikers cannot perform an action if their Aileron maneuver moves through or overlaps and asteroid...

The RRG says in no uncertain terms that overlapping a ship or asteroid with an ailerons maneuver does not cause you to skip your Perform Action step.

1 minute ago, Hiemfire said:

Then I take it that it is safe to assume that those pushing for the action to be permitted in this case also belong to the school of thought that says Reapers and Strikers cannot perform an action if their Aileron maneuver moves through or overlaps and asteroid...

That's two steps of speculation beyond where I'm comfortable, and it's entirely pointless since it's an interaction specifically spelled out in the FAQ (Ailerons don't cause a skip).

My point is that it's pretty easy to look at the Seventh Sister interaction and reach a less precise conclusion.

2 minutes ago, Maui. said:

The RRG says in no uncertain terms that overlapping a ship or asteroid with an ailerons maneuver does not cause you to skip your Perform Action step.

Hasn't stopped people from making incorrect assumptions before via not bothering to actually read the rules.

1 minute ago, theBitterFig said:

That's two steps of speculation beyond where I'm comfortable, and it's entirely pointless since it's an interaction specifically spelled out in the FAQ (Ailerons don't cause a skip).

My point is that it's pretty easy to look at the Seventh Sister interaction and reach a less precise conclusion.

Via not bothering to read. I caught what you were saying when you originally posted it. I find what it indicates disturbing...

2 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

Hasn't stopped people from making incorrect assumptions before via not bothering to actually read the rules.

Via not bothering to read. I caught what you were saying when you originally posted it. I find what it indicates disturbing...

If that's your take-away from my post, then you really missed the point.

1 minute ago, theBitterFig said:

If that's your take-away from my post, then you really missed the point.

Your point is that the "Gets action" school of thought is built on the tractor roll not being considered a maneuver. I took your point and am applying grumpy logic to it resulting in the "take away" that they couldn't be bothered to actually read everything that is involved with the interaction (Asteroid effect timing, ability timing, what "executing a maneuver" actually entails, Etc.) and stopped at the part where they could declare that they are "correct". That they continue to argue for "gets action" even when they have it laid out what is involved is disturbing.

3 hours ago, Hiemfire said:

Then I take it that it is safe to assume that those pushing for the action to be permitted in this case also belong to the school of thought that says Reapers and Strikers cannot perform an action if their Aileron maneuver moves through or overlaps and asteroid...

I know you are not pointing me out specifically, but.

Personally im not really in either camp. My gut tells me "Action", but im seeing convincing arguments for "no action", so i could really go either way on it. (and honestly, thematically, no action feels like it fits better).

That said, I *personally* felt that Aileron maneuvers should have triggered the full effect of asteroids, if for no other reason than to keep the rules simpler. As they are now, you how to know that that one, singular exception exists that they suffer from every other effect of the asteroid except the skip perform action... for some random"because we say so" reason. It just adds unnecessary confusion.

3 minutes ago, Lyianx said:

I know you are not pointing me out specifically, but.

I wasn't directing my previous posts at you at all to be honest, though I can understand the possible confusion.

1 minute ago, Hiemfire said:

I wasn't directing my previous posts at you at all to be honest, though I can understand the possible confusion.

no, i was being serious. I legitimately know it wasn't directed at me, i just wanted to comment , but didnt want it to seem like i was responding "to an attack" or something.

I'm going to side with it gets its action. My argument for, is a strict reading of the rules under the OBSTACLES heading. Notice the difference in wording between a ship maneuvering over an obstacle and moving over one. The wording is the same except for "Then it skips its perform action step". Also note that if a ship maneuvers over/thru a gas cloud, the only effect it suffers is the loss of the action. The entry for the gas cloud is omitted entirely from the section on moving into or through an obstacle.

I could be over simplifying the situation but don't think I am.

17 minutes ago, Stoneface said:

I'm going to side with it gets its action. My argument for, is a strict reading of the rules under the OBSTACLES heading. Notice the difference in wording between a ship maneuvering over an obstacle and moving over one. The wording is the same except for "Then it skips its perform action step". Also note that if a ship maneuvers over/thru a gas cloud, the only effect it suffers is the loss of the action. The entry for the gas cloud is omitted entirely from the section on moving into or through an obstacle.

I could be over simplifying the situation but don't think I am.

Obstacles section lead in statement for overlap/move through (page 14 or the 1.06 RR):

"While a ship executes a maneuver, if it moves through or overlaps an
obstacle, it executes its maneuver as normal but suffers an effect based on
the type of obstacle:"

Maneuver on page 13 (2 steps outlined for executing, Seventh Sister triggers during the second step if the ship is executing gaining a stress during the execution of the maneuver):

"A ship can execute a maneuver by resolving the following steps in order:
1. Maneuver Ship: During this step, the ship moves using the matching
template.
a. Take the template that matches the maneuver from the supply.
b. Set the template between the ship’s front guides (so that it is flush
against the base).
c. Pick up and place the ship at the opposite end of the template and
slide the rear guides of the ship into the template.
d. Return the template to the supply.
2. Check Difficulty: During this step, if the maneuver is red, the ship
gains one stress token; if the maneuver is blue, the ship removes one
stress token and one strain token."

A ship that performs a red maneuver has not finished executing the maneuver until after the stress is assigned. Seventh Sister's effect is applied during the second step of executing a maneuver so the ship outline by the OP would still be executing the maneuver when they ended up overlapping/moving through the obstacle (asteroid in this case causing it to skip the Perform Action step of its Activation Phase).

Seventh Sister crew:

To cover other likely bases where the discussion may go (so not directed at @Stoneface ) the Move Through (page 13, under Move) and Overlap definitions (page 14):

Move Through: "A ship moves through an object if the template is placed on that object when the ship moves."

Overlap: "While a ship executes a maneuver or otherwise moves, it overlaps an object if the ship’s final position would physically be on top of an object."

10 hours ago, Hiemfire said:

Obstacles section lead in statement for overlap/move through (page 14 or the 1.06 RR):

"While a ship executes a maneuver, if it moves through or overlaps an
obstacle, it executes its maneuver as normal but suffers an effect based on
the type of obstacle:"

Maneuver on page 13 (2 steps outlined for executing, Seventh Sister triggers during the second step if the ship is executing gaining a stress during the execution of the maneuver):

"A ship can execute a maneuver by resolving the following steps in order:
1. Maneuver Ship: During this step, the ship moves using the matching
template.
a. Take the template that matches the maneuver from the supply.
b. Set the template between the ship’s front guides (so that it is flush
against the base).
c. Pick up and place the ship at the opposite end of the template and
slide the rear guides of the ship into the template.
d. Return the template to the supply.
2. Check Difficulty: During this step, if the maneuver is red, the ship
gains one stress token; if the maneuver is blue, the ship removes one
stress token and one strain token."

A ship that performs a red maneuver has not finished executing the maneuver until after the stress is assigned. Seventh Sister's effect is applied during the second step of executing a maneuver so the ship outline by the OP would still be executing the maneuver when they ended up overlapping/moving through the obstacle (asteroid in this case causing it to skip the Perform Action step of its Activation Phase).

Seventh Sister crew:

To cover other likely bases where the discussion may go (so not directed at @Stoneface ) the Move Through (page 13, under Move) and Overlap definitions (page 14):

Move Through: "A ship moves through an object if the template is placed on that object when the ship moves."

Overlap: "While a ship executes a maneuver or otherwise moves, it overlaps an object if the ship’s final position would physically be on top of an object."

I thought this would make more sense in the light of day but I was wrong.

A ship executes a red maneuver. Before it gains a stress token it gains a tractor token. (This is a replacement effect so anything that would trigger from gaining a stress token won't.) The tractored ship is then relocated by a boost or barrel roll, which is a move not a maneuver, onto an asteroid where it suffers the effects of that obstacle and loses its action because it's still executing a maneuver. This seems a little strange.

2 hours ago, Stoneface said:

I thought this would make more sense in the light of day but I was wrong.

A ship executes a red maneuver. Before it gains a stress token it gains a tractor token. (This is a replacement effect so anything that would trigger from gaining a stress token won't.) The tractored ship is then relocated by a boost or barrel roll, which is a move not a maneuver, onto an asteroid where it suffers the effects of that obstacle and loses its action because it's still executing a maneuver. This seems a little strange.

The passage quoted earlier regarding the effects of an Asteroid does not say if you maneuver over/through the asteroid, it does say if you move over/through while executing a maneuver .

Here's a hypothetical re-writing of the passage with my added line underlined for emphasis (hypothetical p14): " While a ship executes a maneuver, if it moves through or overlaps an obstacle during its Maneuver Ship step , it executes its maneuver as normal but suffers an effect based on the type of obstacle:... "

In this hypothetical writing the timing window for relevant movement has been narrowed to only include movement caused specifically while maneuvering. Here's the actual text for comparison (real p14 RR1.0.6.1): " While a ship executes a maneuver, if it moves through or overlaps an obstacle, it executes its maneuver as normal but suffers an effect based on the type of obstacle:... "

As the rule is actually written (as of RR1.0.6.1) the timing window is the entire Execute Maneuver step of a ship's activation, which includes the check difficulty step, and that rule only says 'if it moves' which is very specific language that includes all forms of movement, not just maneuvers.

After reading all these answers, and also the Discord discussion, I decided to take a second look at the rules:

The enemy ship executes a maneuver. -> It is about to apply the stress -> 7th sister triggers and replaces the stress with tractor -> Ship gets barrel rolled onto asteroid -> "Tractor rules:
This move can cause the ship to move through or overlap an obstacle." -> "Obstacle rules: A ship can suffer
effects by moving through, overlapping, or while being at range 0 of obstacles." -> The ship rolls for damage -> Ship now wants to enter Perform Action phase but "Asteroid rules: Then the ship skips its Perform Action step this round."

I am now firmly in the "It skips the action phase" camp.

9 minutes ago, Funkstar said:

After reading all these answers, and also the Discord discussion, I decided to take a second look at the rules:

👍

14 hours ago, nitrobenz said:

The passage quoted earlier regarding the effects of an Asteroid does not say if you maneuver over/through the asteroid, it does say if you move over/through while executing a maneuver .

Here's a hypothetical re-writing of the passage with my added line underlined for emphasis (hypothetical p14): " While a ship executes a maneuver, if it moves through or overlaps an obstacle during its Maneuver Ship step , it executes its maneuver as normal but suffers an effect based on the type of obstacle:... "

In this hypothetical writing the timing window for relevant movement has been narrowed to only include movement caused specifically while maneuvering. Here's the actual text for comparison (real p14 RR1.0.6.1): " While a ship executes a maneuver, if it moves through or overlaps an obstacle, it executes its maneuver as normal but suffers an effect based on the type of obstacle:... "

As the rule is actually written (as of RR1.0.6.1) the timing window is the entire Execute Maneuver step of a ship's activation, which includes the check difficulty step, and that rule only says 'if it moves' which is very specific language that includes all forms of movement, not just maneuvers.

Do you agree that Seventh Sister's ability is a replacement effect? According to the rules, the stress token never was issued, and nothing is checked for on a white maneuver. Wouldn't this end the maneuver phase?

40 minutes ago, Stoneface said:

Do you agree that Seventh Sister's ability is a replacement effect? According to the rules, the stress token never was issued, and nothing is checked for on a white maneuver. Wouldn't this end the maneuver phase?

Seventh Sister being a replacement effect is true. That is an interesting new argument, especially because it leans heavily on two incorrect assumptions. First : you have the token-maneuver relationship backwards. The color of the maneuver dictates gaining/removing a stress token, but whether that stress token is applied or replaced does not affect the color of the maneuver. Second : you do not skip the Check Difficulty step on a white maneuver. Just because you have no effects that trigger during a particular step does not mean it is skipped.

The rules for maneuver explicitly state (RR1.0.6.1 p13) "A ship can EXECUTE a maneuver by resolving the following steps in order:" (bold/caps lock is verbatim, I did not add that) then lists two steps, the second of which is:

"2. Check Difficulty: During this step, if the maneuver is red, the ship gains one stress token ; if the maneuver is blue, the ship removes one stress token and one strain token ." (again, bold/underlined are as they appear in the rules, not added by me)

That is listed in the steps required, and it does not say to skip this step when performing a white maneuver. There are specific effects stated depending on 'if the maneuver is red/blue...' it does not say 'make it red by gaining a stress.'

There is also this question.

IS the Check Difficulty step complete the moment the token is gained, regardless what having that token triggers?