If adv sensors made actions red, then that limits its use to blue maneuvers to use it every round, so ships like Guri lose the white moves, and 4lom loses the adv sensors before red moves. You could then lower its cost. When there is no penalty for using it, the only thing stopping anyone from equipping it is cost which either makes it abusable on ships that can afford it, or unplayable for those that cant, similar to Luke gunner. There is no penalty for using Luke. Its either playable or not due to cost. If you spent a force and received a stress (or suffer damage, etc.) to rotate your turret at start of engagement to guarantee a shot 100% of the time, it could be dropped to 14ish points like most good crew force users. Grand Inquisitor crew grants an action after seeing a ships dial and makes white actions red. So its not like FFG has not done this before with powerful cards.

Another option is give adv sensors charges. 3 charges. Blam. problem solved. Afterburn is 6pts for 2 boosts and one of the best upgrades in the game.

FFG could price adv sensors out of the game, or only so Guri would take it at like 20pts (and kill a chunk of her bid as well) and then introduce a new "Advance Sensors" like they did with supernatty and precog.

2 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

Just seems like too much work. Price scaling for 8 point on a Lambda (i1), 10 points on 4-LOM (i3), and 16 points on Guri (i5) kinda has no realistic collateral damage? AdvS Hera, Corran, Rexler Brath... those don't really exist.

58 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

But they should. It's just way too expensive because they're trying to price it for Guri. Guri is the only truly abusive use of it because of her crazy-weird rolls.

While probably not overall as good as Guri, Rexler with AS truly sucks to play against. I played him for a month or so in the early fall, and never had so many people give up mid-game. I suspect he's not a thing because he doesn't fit with the current obvious Empire power pieces, but it might not take much to change and all of a sudden he's a problem too.

56 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

But it does though. Corran doesn't want to pay 16 for AS, and Rexler certainly doesn't given what he loses out on. More to the point, Gina won't. Braylen and Ten won't, and Kagi, Jendon, and Sai won't...

Jendon/Sai wouldn't be any more expensive than now. Higher B-Wings don't need help, and while AdvS is kind of fun, making ships with the B-Wing statline more expensive might not be a great play.

58 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

[AdvS Hera, Corran, Rexler don't exist]

But they should. It's just way too expensive because they're trying to price it for Guri. Guri is the only truly abusive use of it because of her crazy-weird rolls. 4-LOM is mean but not exactly abusive because his own maneuverability is so poor, and the ending positions of any other ships with AS are much more constrained, and will always be at least generally in the same direction as anticipated.

Really says something about this game that pre-move boosts into white K-Turns isn't seen as at all problematic.

47 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

The Defender being pre-Yavin seems like a no-go for Tech slot though. At least the E-Wing can claim much later development. The K-Wing might fall in there too, depending on where they choose to stick it into the new canon.

Fair in terms of fluff, but it'd still be cool.

50 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

Also, can I just say that I almost always agree with you and I really love your insights? I feel like we could be friends IRL 😛

29 minutes ago, wurms said:

Another option is give adv sensors charges. 3 charges. Blam. problem solved. Afterburn is 6pts for 2 boosts and one of the best upgrades in the game.

While I love the design of Afterburners, the numbers don't really lie.

• Darth Vader: 351 lists
• Quickdraw: 38 lists
• Guri: 32 lists
• Duchess: 18 lists
• Luke: 17 lists

Burners is kind of a one-ship upgrade.

1 hour ago, theBitterFig said:

While I love the design of Afterburners, the numbers don't really lie.

• Darth Vader: 351 lists
• Quickdraw: 38 lists
• Guri: 32 lists
• Duchess: 18 lists
• Luke: 17 lists

Burners is kind of a one-ship upgrade.

I'm curious as to what percentage of those pilots don't take Afterburners. I'd imagine Vader is the only one where the 'with AB' column outweighs the 'without AB' column.

1 hour ago, theBitterFig said:

While I love the design of Afterburners, the numbers don't really lie.

• Darth Vader: 351 lists
• Quickdraw: 38 lists
• Guri: 32 lists
• Duchess: 18 lists
• Luke: 17 lists

Burners is kind of a one-ship upgrade.

Burners needs to be initiative based. It's super cool, but too expensive for most ships for what it brings.

2 minutes ago, Biophysical said:

Burners needs to be initiative based. It's super cool, but too expensive for most ships for what it brings.

BB-8 Pricing? Starts at 3 at Init 1, goes up to 8 at Init 6? But then that's even a nerf for Luke and Guri and such, and even they don't take it much.

17 minutes ago, Biophysical said:

Burners needs to be initiative based. It's super cool, but too expensive for most ships for what it brings.

Initiative based seems like a good way to handle it especially since its repositon related. Though I have to say it seems pretty low on the list of current issues. A substantial base cost increase to Vader is where I would start. Havent seen a ton of it but Precog is extremely good on vader and an increase to burners without a substantial increase to Vaders base cost would probably just push things more naturally towards 13 pt precog without burners (assuming ffg chose 13 pts for a reason, seems really low). Somewhat unrelated but I have always particularly enjoyed using it on Luke even without any other upgrades.

15 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

BB-8 Pricing? Starts at 3 at Init 1, goes up to 8 at Init 6? But then that's even a nerf for Luke and Guri and such, and even they don't take it much.

BB-8 is too expensive while tied to blues.

3 minutes ago, gennataos said:

BB-8 being invoked is like my Bat Signal

I'm surprised it took you so long to reply.

5 hours ago, ClassicalMoser said:

Fun thought; what if they removed the sensor slot from all vipers and gave it a TECH instead!

I'm down for trying this out. Primed Trusters keeps Guri hyper-mobile, but much more predictable than Adv Sensors Guri. Also, Dalan Oberos would be crazy sorts of fun to fly. Three-bank, rotate 90 degrees, afterburners a boost, then barrel roll. Goofy fun at a wholesome I4 to not super out Ace everyone.

New thought: pre-maneuver repo is strong. The downside is loss of actions (like Precog) which makes it much less harmful.

BBs, Precog, Sabine, AS on most things are mostly okay. BUT:

The Starviper totally breaks it. Just looked up a heat map of Precog Kylo vs AS Guri, and... it’s ridiculous.

Here's what I mean. This is what Precog Kylo can do with a right 1-turn (solid black boxes are end positions):

And here's what Guri can do with it:

Now, honestly I'm fine with precog in general. I think its applications are limited enough and its cost is steep enough that it kinda just works. I think it would make a reasonable costing structure for AS as well. But clearly, Vipers should have to pay more than that.

Solution: Take away the Viper's sensor slot, errata it onto Virago, and make THAT scale by initiative as well. Fixes Guri while still allowing her to be cheap without, but still keeps AS in play for non-abusers.

Virago could then cost something like Virago + Precog (13, 13, 13, 14, 17, 20, 23), and AS would cost exactly the same at I5 as before (10), but become much more affordable at I3 (4) and I4 (7). Becomes much more feasible on Shuttles and B-Wings that aren't Gina Moonsong, while still being somewhat prohibitive on Rexler, Gina, Corran, etc., and for Guri it would cost 30 points. You could still fly Guri-Fenn, but you'd have basically no bid left so the number of matchups you would just smash become nearly nonexistent.

Would require errata but it’s so small and simple and gives them one more handle to pull on her; allows them to balance Guri independently of Advanced Sensors

2 hours ago, gennataos said:

BB-8 is too expensive while tied to blues.

Not sure why the laughs— it makes sense. Either you’re stressed and BB doesn’t work anyway or you’re not and would rather do a white or red. Pre-move repo just isn’t scary behind blues, and you can’t take BB and R4 together.

If it were good, it would be used more than anecdotally.

15 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

Not sure why the laughs

almost like they're laughing about the joke in the edit or something.

16 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

Not sure why the laughs— it makes sense. Either you’re stressed and BB doesn’t work anyway or you’re not and would rather do a white or red. Pre-move repo just isn’t scary behind blues, and you can’t take BB and R4 together.

If it were good, it would be used more than anecdotally.

The laughing reacts were due to my edit reason. I’m kind of a BB-8 *****.

1 hour ago, Do I need a Username said:

almost like they're laughing about the joke in the edit or something.

1 hour ago, gennataos said:

The laughing reacts were due to my edit reason. I’m kind of a BB-8 *****.

Sometimes I'm a dunce 😛

10 hours ago, Boom Owl said:

Initiative based seems like a good way to handle it especially since its repositon related. Though I have to say it seems pretty low on the list of current issues.

Although I understand that is a flexible solution to a lot of upgrades, I don't like the Initiative based cost.

We are paying a tax for move after the enemy ships. If it's not enough, I would prefer touch the base cost. If you increase the best upgrades for the best pilots, we are paying two times, and the reduction to mid-low Initiative pilots have problems too (See Chertek with Ensnare).

Same with Agility based cost. The extra health on a Decimator, Falcon or Boba Fett is a bargain.

Limit the upgrade slots like the Fang design is another option to balance some ships and pilots that exploit some mechanics.

14 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

BB-8 Pricing? Starts at 3 at Init 1, goes up to 8 at Init 6? But then that's even a nerf for Luke and Guri and such, and even they don't take it much.

Given how much I love TIE/sk with afterburners, being able to pack a Planetary Sentinel with Afterburners and Seismic Charges would be amazing.

2 hours ago, Magnus Grendel said:

Given how much I love TIE/sk with afterburners, being able to pack a Planetary Sentinel with Afterburners and Seismic Charges would be amazing.

Strikers (because of you!) are one of the things which make me fear going too low with Burners.

16 hours ago, ClassicalMoser said:

Solution: Take away the Viper's sensor slot, errata it onto Virago, and make THAT scale by initiative as well. Fixes Guri while still allowing her to be cheap without, but still keeps AS in play for non-abusers.

Virago could then cost something like Virago + Precog (13, 13, 13, 14, 17, 20, 23), and AS would cost exactly the same at I5 as before (10), but become much more affordable at I3 (4) and I4 (7). Becomes much more feasible on Shuttles and B-Wings that aren't Gina Moonsong, while still being somewhat prohibitive on Rexler, Gina, Corran, etc., and for Guri it would cost 30 points. You could still fly Guri-Fenn, but you'd have basically no bid left so the number of matchups you would just smash become nearly nonexistent.

Would require errata but it’s so small and simple and gives them one more handle to pull on her; allows them to balance Guri independently of Advanced Sensors

I suppose it works functionally, but I really hate it. I know you kind of want to keep Advanced Sensors viable for other high-init ships, but I think it's cool for Vipers to have neat tools like a Sensor slot (or the Tech slot they're never getting even if it'd be cool).

Alternate option: Banlist.

1. Simply ban Advanced Sensors on Guri. This allows it to be fairly priced everywhere else, and allows Guri to be fairly priced.
2. Give the Rebel YT-1300 back the Illicit slot, and ban Inertial Dampeners (at least in combination with R2-D2, maybe on Han in general).
3. Give Leebo back a crew slot and ban C-3PO on Leebo.
4. That's probably it.

There are a very small number of things I'd ban. Right now, I only want the last 2, and would cave on #1 since I know enough other folks would want it.

But this whole discussion seems like the best argument for a banlist. Trying to keep everything fair independently, while holding back the extreme cases, just doesn't work.

16 hours ago, ClassicalMoser said:

The Starviper totally breaks it. Just looked up a heat map of Precog Kylo vs AS Guri, and... it’s ridiculous.

Here's what I mean. This is what Precog Kylo can do with a right 1-turn (solid black boxes are end positions):

And here's what Guri can do with it:

Now, honestly I'm fine with precog in general. I think its applications are limited enough and its cost is steep enough that it kinda just works. I think it would make a reasonable costing structure for AS as well. But clearly, Vipers should have to pay more than that.

Only nitpick: Kylo never uses Precog, and will stick with Supernatural, due to the immense flexibility of Autothrusters and Primed Thrusters.

Considering that the SNR/PT Kylo is pretty comparable in price to a loaded Guri, seems like that'd be the more fair comparison.