37 minutes ago, MidWestScrub said:

So without it she really isn't any good. And even if she was, what in the world do you run with her?

I can absolutely imagine a timeline where Guri without sensors is “good”. Right now you can run exactly two ships with her, not really starting from a diverse place to begin with. Sensors is holding her back. Just like Supernatural held Grand Inq back before they gave that card the 20 pt treatment.

55 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

But having someone like Duchess or Tallie/L'ulo who'd be actually mobile while gaining a token and cost under 50 points would be a great piece. The issue is there isn't really a ship chassis for it. Rebels will probably eventually get an RZ-1 at Init 5 or 6. Scum would need something entirely new.

I don't know if Scum will, or even necessarily should, get a piece like that.

Mostly just because I don't want to see every faction capable of doing every list type.

On pure feeling, I'd like to see 2 ace + 2 decent generic/named low init filler be competitive in scum (akin to 2jedi+2Golds).

Maybe it already is...?

3 hours ago, MidWestScrub said:

This is largely the issue. Guri with ad sense is an NPE. But she's priced to have it. So without it she really isn't any good. And even if she was, what in the world do you run with her?

Three fangs

2 hours ago, Bucknife said:

I don't know if Scum will, or even necessarily should, get a piece like that.

Mostly just because I don't want to see every faction capable of doing every list type.

On pure feeling, I'd like to see 2 ace + 2 decent generic/named low init filler be competitive in scum (akin to 2jedi+2Golds).

Maybe it already is...?

How about fenn & Guri + sunny & seevor. 8 points to play with

4 hours ago, TBot said:

How about fenn & Guri + sunny & seevor. 8 points to play with

Seevor is a great piece. But he loses much of his utility when the majority of the list shoots before him.

25 minutes ago, MidWestScrub said:

Seevor is a great piece. But he loses much of his utility when the majority of the list shoots before him.

There’d be points enough to include Swarm Tactics, though, which could work?

Just now, CoffeeMinion said:

There’d be points enough to include Swarm Tactics, though, which could work?

Sure. But it would require that you tie Seevor to Fenn. Or Guri I suppose. Heh. Tie the Tie Fighter.

It's possible it could have some utility. I think Seevor needing to stay range one of Miss Mobility or Mr. Range One of Enemies might be problematic. Just depends on how the squad was played most likely.

9 hours ago, Boom Owl said:

I can absolutely imagine a timeline where Guri without sensors is “good”. Right now you can run exactly two ships with her, not really starting from a diverse place to begin with. Sensors is holding her back. Just like Supernatural held Grand Inq back before they gave that card the 20 pt treatment.

Great point. Supernatural nerf was probably a prerequisite for the massive points cuts to the TIE/v1.

So long as Advanced Sensors continue to exist, maybe it is time to add some extreme scaling to Advanced Sensors, and claw back some of Guri's price. 6 points at Init 0-2, 8 points at 3, 10 points at 4, 16 points at 5, 24 points at 6.

8 hours ago, Bucknife said:

I don't know if Scum will, or even necessarily should, get a piece like that.

Mostly just because I don't want to see every faction capable of doing every list type.

Totally fair.

6 hours ago, jagsba said:

Three fangs

My only issue with it is, why wouldn't I take Fenn Rau? But then I'm a bigger Fenn Rau fan, and sometimes you just gotta scratch that Guri itch.

I'm a little sad that Guri + three i2 Black Sun Enforcer Starvipers doesn't fit into a list.

19 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

maybe it is time to add some extreme scaling to Advanced Sensors

this just unleashes 4-LOM, and maybe U-Wings/Tavson

Just now, svelok said:

this just unleashes 4-LOM, and maybe U-Wings/Tavson

Ohhhh 4-Lom with cheap ad sense! Yes please!

37 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

My only issue with it is, why wouldn't I take Fenn Rau?

You would just take Fenn.

12 minutes ago, svelok said:

this just unleashes 4-LOM, and maybe U-Wings/Tavson

Advanced Sensors has frequently been a card I've been opposed to scaling on. It's often quite strong on low-init ships, and a lot of what folks seemed to be proposing were low prices on low-init ships. Flying mostly the Omicron Lambda as far as potential AdvS ships go, 6 points is the extreme lower edge of how low it could be. I guess I keep forgetting how potent U-Wing lists have been. Mostly, I was trying to lend a hand to all the folks who regret they can't fly 4 AdvS B-Wings anymore.

But I think I've come around to liking the idea of scaling Advanced Sensors similar to Supernatural Reflexes or Ensnare, with a high starting price at low-init. Maybe the particular low-init price needs to be different to thread the needle of B-Wings and U-Wings (or give up on B-Wings entirely... they've got their new toys anyhow). But overall, I like the general concept, so that we could get like 4-ish points knocked off of no-AdvS Guri.

9 minutes ago, gennataos said:

You would just take Fenn.

You get a little bit of points to play with guri, she doesn't do the big slaps shots but can get more consistent lock focus shots. She's also a bit of a hedge against aux arcs that hurt fangs. Fenns very good there. But there's an argument for guri

New question: Suppose Advanced Sensors is just out of the picture. Banned, priced into oblivion whatever, doesn't matter.

What price should Guri be?

Lower-edge to me is 56 like Old Terroch. Upper edge is 62 like Luke.

I would imagine it would be closer to old t.

As much as I love Guri, I would rather advanced sensors be viable than Guri be competitive, personally.

Lambdas especially have a rough time getting enough coordinates out when they’re always blocked and every maneuver is red anyway.

I do agree that B-Wings don’t need it as badly anymore though.

Still, what if the devs just added certain slot taxes? They could bring Guri back 4 points and put a 20pt tax on the Sensor slot. Then we could bring AS back to a flat 8 and it wouldn’t be so bad. We could do something similar on 4-LOM if necessary.

I don’t know, maybe that’s a bit extreme. Fun thought; what if they removed the sensor slot from all vipers and gave it a TECH instead!

10 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

Still, what if the devs just added certain slot taxes? They could bring Guri back 4 points and put a 20pt tax on the Sensor slot. Then we could bring AS back to a flat 8 and it wouldn’t be so bad. We could do something similar on 4-LOM if necessary.

Just seems like too much work. Price scaling for 8 point on a Lambda (i1), 10 points on 4-LOM (i3), and 16 points on Guri (i5) kinda has no realistic collateral damage? AdvS Hera, Corran, Rexler Brath... those don't really exist. I know there's a few folks who'll give them a go, but like, if the AdvS/SNR style of play is enough of an NPE, why bother keeping it on weaker pilots?

What if there were a Precognative Reflexes/Supernatural Reflexes split? A new "Adaptive Scanners" Sensor upgrade which allows only non-movement actions? Or maybe just Lock/Coordinate/Jam/Rotate.

12 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

Fun thought; what if they removed the sensor slot from all vipers and gave it a TECH instead!

• Primed Thrusters Guri would be super fun, and totally different. It'd also be sweet on Dalan Oberos. No one else would want it, however.
• Pattern Analyzer doesn't really seem worthwhile, since the red moves aren't good enough.
• Advanced Optics is mixed. Guri with Optics would hit like a truck. Generics with Optics would be kind of sweet, with stronger offense on those turns they don't need to spend their focus on defense.

Overall, I'd be down to try it for a points update season. Do the same thing with E-Wings and TIE Defenders. They all lose the Sensor slot and gain Tech, to see if anything cool happens.

Oh! E-Wing with Targeting Synchronizer is SCARY! But is it really, though? Flying a swarm of Z-95s with missiles or Y-Wings with Torpedoes wouldn't really be much worse than Jendon/TIE Bombers which is legal now.

20 hours ago, MidWestScrub said:

@Biophysical and @svelok I recognize and agree and AS Guri can be a an NPE and an auto-win in some cases. With that being said, competitive players tend to take broken things, but most people don't take her. She's not doing well in the meta. Almost never really has in second edition. I've been playing her with AS for a long time and have never won much of anything when her. I would contribute that to me sucking at x-wing, but no one else really has either. With the exception of Phil GC (I believe) winning a hyperspace.

I'm genuinely curious as to your thoughts on why that is, and hope that the lack of inflection in text doesn't make me come across as snarky.

She doesn't win a lot of tournaments because you will eventually run into i6 aces in a long tournament, or dice will fail you and you wont be able to kill enough vultures by end of 75 minutes. Reading PhilGC posts, he loses Fenn kinda fast to vultures and just cant get damage through in time on vultures. Time is probably Guri's biggest disadvantage. Sinker Swarms, Vulture Swarms, Rebel Beef. If your red dice are cold, or opponents green dice are hot against high hull lists, two ship Guri will be in trouble. So in larger tournaments like Worlds, System Opens, etc with more rounds, higher caliber players, and top lists, you are more likely to run into one or two of these problems mentioned above. In smaller tournaments with 20-30 people, you can dodge a lot of these problems (may not face an i6 ship) and may not experience much variance on dice in 4 rounds or whatever.

As far as NPE, that is all subjective. Im with you in I hate the joust game and would not play Xwing if that is what it came down too. Im an ace player and love the high risk high reward. I would fly against Adv Guri over a Decimator or VCX or quad Uwings list any day. Slogfests are boring and just a game of attrition - same reason I dont play Epic. I like Xwing being a game of chess and not just yahtzee trying to roll the most paint.

6 minutes ago, wurms said:

If your red dice are cold, or opponents green dice are hot against high hull lists, two ship Guri will be in trouble.

This seems applicable for all 2-ship lists, from my experience.

3 minutes ago, gennataos said:

This seems applicable for all 2-ship lists, from my experience.

Pretty much. There just aren't enough guns on the table to really keep up in the damage race.

Just now, gennataos said:

This seems applicable for all 2-ship lists, from my experience.

Mostly, but guri doesnt have passive rerolls and rarely takes locks and lives on the outmaneuver to help. She is much more susceptible to variance. Boba has less chance of cold dice in a two ship list. Same with rebel Han and his rerolls. Those passive rerolls are money in two ship lists that need to keep the plinkage damage on every turn.

10 minutes ago, wurms said:

Mostly, but guri doesnt have passive rerolls and rarely takes locks and lives on the outmaneuver to help. She is much more susceptible to variance. Boba has less chance of cold dice in a two ship list. Same with rebel Han and his rerolls. Those passive rerolls are money in two ship lists that need to keep the plinkage damage on every turn.

Sure...I'm just saying any 2-ship list can't have many engagements go poorly or they'll fall behind really quick.

54 minutes ago, gennataos said:

Sure...I'm just saying any 2-ship list can't have many engagements go poorly or they'll fall behind really quick.

Totally agree. The fewer ships you have, the fewer times you can choose... poorly.

Quote

Just seems like too much work. Price scaling for 8 point on a Lambda (i1), 10 points on 4-LOM (i3), and 16 points on Guri (i5) kinda has no realistic collateral damage?

But it does though. Corran doesn't want to pay 16 for AS, and Rexler certainly doesn't given what he loses out on. More to the point, Gina won't. Braylen and Ten won't, and Kagi, Jendon, and Sai won't...

2 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

AdvS Hera, Corran, Rexler Brath... those don't really exist.

But they should. It's just way too expensive because they're trying to price it for Guri. Guri is the only truly abusive use of it because of her crazy-weird rolls. 4-LOM is mean but not exactly abusive because his own maneuverability is so poor, and the ending positions of any other ships with AS are much more constrained, and will always be at least generally in the same direction as anticipated.

AS could be 6 points and errataed to say "This action cannot be a boost or barrel roll." Or they could just make the Starvipers pay more for it. OR They could put the Sensor slot on Virago and up it a good deal. Actually I really like that last idea; that's how it was in 1.0....

I do think we'll be getting some errata in January. Hoping especially for:

Inertial Dampeners (2 charges instead of shields)

Jumpmasters (white rotate, possibly the linked ones, accompanying price nerf)

Punishing One (works outside of front arc; accompanying price nerf)

You could possibly add sensor slot to Virago title to that list.

2 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

What if there were a Precognative Reflexes/Supernatural Reflexes split? A new "Adaptive Scanners" Sensor upgrade which allows only non-movement actions? Or maybe just Lock/Coordinate/Jam/Rotate.

I've also been thinking about that. Then you can give AS the SNR treatment and still have something that's super viable on the Shuttle and B-Wing. Well, not quite the SNR treatment since AS is inherently much more limited than SNR as it cuts off the rest of your actions. It could scale like a somewhat-better Precog, which really it kind of is.

2 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

Oh! E-Wing with Targeting Synchronizer is SCARY! But is it really, though? Flying a swarm of Z-95s with missiles or Y-Wings with Torpedoes wouldn't really be much worse than Jendon/TIE Bombers which is legal now.

Yeah, it's pretty much the same thing. I still think 1-2 points off missiles (and 1 more to PS, 3 to Jendon) would do a lot to make missile generics viable. This would be a kind of fun addition though!

The Defender being pre-Yavin seems like a no-go for Tech slot though. At least the E-Wing can claim much later development. The K-Wing might fall in there too, depending on where they choose to stick it into the new canon.

Also, can I just say that I almost always agree with you and I really love your insights? I feel like we could be friends IRL 😛