13 minutes ago, MidWestScrub said:

@Biophysical and @svelok I recognize and agree and AS Guri can be a an NPE and an auto-win in some cases. With that being said, competitive players tend to take broken things, but most people don't take her. She's not doing well in the meta. Almost never really has in second edition. I've been playing her with AS for a long time and have never won much of anything when her. I would contribute that to me sucking at x-wing, but no one else really has either. With the exception of Phil GC (I believe) winning a hyperspace.

I'm genuinely curious as to your thoughts on why that is, and hope that the lack of inflection in text doesn't make me come across as snarky.

@svelok listed the win rates with/without bid. She needs to bid deep enough to win, and a lot of people don't like the bid game, so won't play it.

She doesn't have a way to move after i6s, which have always had a consistent showing in the meta.

As good as she is, her points and the scum lineup does pretty much limit her to two ship lists, which aren't a popular option, and in a faction with a dearth of force pilots when force is really good.

As much as we say that advS guri isn't hard, there is a minimum level of understanding to play her that it takes to to well. part of that understanding is being willing to play to points on time, and a player who understands that they're basically pulling all the fun out of a social game and still be willing to do it.

Looking at all this, the question I'd have is, why not just run trip force aces in the republic or imperial variety, and have three good double modding flexible ships instead of just two?

I think the same question applies for force users. Why aren't we seeing SNR jedi? they're obviously good and can be incredibly NPE in the same way as Guri.

P.S. personally, advS guri doesn't make me feel like I'm getting better at x-wing or earning my wins, it makes me feel like I'm playing a game of solitare, if i wanted to do that I wouldn't have gone out to play x-wing.

2 minutes ago, Biophysical said:

Just because some things beat it, doesn't mean it's okay for a ship to dumpster 150% of its points in lower initiative ships.

But does it though? I'm really mostly interested in data at this point. A lot of claims like this are unsubstantiated...

2 minutes ago, Biophysical said:

Hoping your opponent is dumb is a very bad strategy and feels crappy to play for.

But that really does go both ways. You can't fly in a block or she'll dodge you. You can't spread out too far or she'll eat you one at a time. You have to keep a sort of loose cluster with various facings to punish a variety of moves equally. Yeah, it's different from "normal" X-Wing games, but it's still a strategy. And I think it usually does work about as effectively as AS Guri does.

1 minute ago, ClassicalMoser said:

But does it though? I'm really mostly interested in data at this point. A lot of claims like this are unsubstantiated...

Yes, it does. What kind of substantiation do you want? Literature references? Video with notation? It's a hobby game and you're not going to get that.

3 minutes ago, Biophysical said:

Yes, it does. What kind of substantiation do you want? Literature references? Video with notation? It's a hobby game and you're not going to get that.

Listfortress data does exist. I know there are ways to compare matchups, though I'm not familiar with how that is done. I want to see at least 70-30 against things like Vulture Swarms or Rebel Beef before crying wolf.

5 minutes ago, MidWestScrub said:

@Biophysical and @svelok I recognize and agree and AS Guri can be a an NPE and an auto-win in some cases. With that being said, competitive players tend to take broken things, but most people don't take her.

So, there's two different meanings of broken in play. There's a difference between Obi-wan, whose price is broken; and Guri (w/ AS), whose mechanics are broken. She fundamentally warps the game in her function, if she's 170 points that doesn't mean she's still good. But the idea of balance isn't that something is either good or engaging but never both - if SnR is so oppressive we have to price it up until nobody uses it, the price was never the operative factor in the first place. AS Guri is the same - she's either bad, or distortionary, with no inbetween; whereas by contrast a Guri with no Sensor slot would probably be either bad, or good, points depending? But not as abusive, by virtue of mechanics - SnR, 1.0 decloak, etc etc; these nonstandard movement abilities are usual suspects.

To illustrate a point: imagine a card that worked as follows. If you make the correct decision every turn, you win the game. If you make a mistake once, you lose. Does that sound like a fair card? Well, maybe at first read, but the important (vital) missing component is the decision's of the opponent, and words like "interactivity". A single player game that's highly challenging is nevertheless not desirable.

I also want to emphasize I don't endorse "shaming" someone for the list they bring; that's a behavior I consider to be highly toxic. There's a reason I saved my piece for the introspective article, not just a tournament report!

20 minutes ago, MidWestScrub said:

She's not doing well in the meta. Almost never really has in second edition. I've been playing her with AS for a long time and have never won much of anything when her. I would contribute that to me sucking at x-wing, but no one else really has either. With the exception of Phil GC (I believe) winning a hyperspace.

I'm genuinely curious as to your thoughts on why that is, and hope that the lack of inflection in text doesn't make me come across as snarky.

I would tend to think it's a matter of available wingmates and prevalent i6's (vader/soontir/etc) but I have personally played AS Guri "an amount" and I'm sure there are more informed answers than mine.

2 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

The problem is more with initiative and first/second player in general more than with AS Guri specifically.

This is pretty demonstrably not true. No other pilot in the game has first/second winrates as skewed as Guri does. Even Kylo into Obi-wan is a 37% -> 50% jump for comparison. Guri blows every other matchup out of the water in the importance of bid to her winrate.

It's worth pointing out that this is a game with constantly changing rules. I don't mean this in a dismissive "none of this matters" way, but rather, there's no particular reason the status quo ought to be preserved, unless it's a good one. Why should Guri keep slot X instead of losing slot X? There can be arguments both ways, and "when lacking information, do nothing" is a valid philosophy. But in this case, we have many reasons to consider AS Guri abusive, whereas the value in keeping AS Guri in the game is "well some people like playing her". Or, in other words, it will always be a fundamentally subjective matter. Focusing on winrate is a case of missing the argument altogether.

Okay, soooo...how about we get less mad at each other (myself, included) about subjective opinions (most of this discussion IS subjective opinions on how we want the game to be played)...and talk about the viability of 2-ship lists?

I think they're viable, just always a mistake away from losing. The losing may not happen immediately after the mistake..

They're not always "get points and run". @MidWestScrub finishes games before time more than anyone locally that I know aside from possibly @Biophysical (same team!). Most of my Rey/Poe games finish before time, win or lose. Double Jedi...yes, even those can finish shockingly fast. Handbrake Han was an abomination that always went to time, so can't argue against that. Dash/Roark....****, I'd almost forgot about that...that always ended before time, right? RAC+ 1, that probably goes to time more than any current 2-ship lists, yeah? Except maybe Rexler/Vader?

Catching and killng AS Guri can be done with anything ofc. But with a serious amount of those things, it can't be done without getting wrecked by her back up.

She just decides to be in range or not, depending on who you go for. You can obviously narrow the board and close her down. A smart player can bait and punish that, leaving you with not enough ships to close the net and Guri with a perfect set up.

She doesn't have to shoot anything. Just makes it harder to get far enough in front if you're forced to choose that route, which can bite back.

She doesn't like I6s on the flank, the only real thing holding her back. Having to run from a Wedge who costs so much less sucks quite hard. Precog Vader is a bit scary.

I've been on both sides of the table and she brings some wicked BS. It's entirely possible to wriggle her through 4+ firing arcs. You get her early or you just don't. It can be disappointingly binary.

Which is a shame, because plotting those lovely shapes is cool.

And great blog. I agree.

19 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

The problem is more with initiative and first/second player in general more than with AS Guri specifically. Objective play and/or 1st player choosing environment does quite a lot to counter that. I know that's not currently in plans, but with enough support for it, it's only a matter of time.

1 hour ago, svelok said:

Guri winrates, moving first -> moving last:

• Ric Olie: 20% -> 67%
• Kylo Ren: 14% -> 71%
• Boba Fett: 44% -> 83%
• Guri (mirror): 22% -> 78%

This is a pilot that's fundamentally broken on a mechanical level, and Advanced Sensors is the reason. It's just Supernatural Reflexes - it's not like we haven't seen this before.

Svelok listed her win rates against other i5s with the bid and without. You can look at comparisons to other aces and see that the difference between the bid and not is huge with guri compared to others. As a decent stand in, look at soontir fel (http://advancedtargeting.computer/pilot.html?pilot=soontirfel) who I'd say is a good example of an ace people think needs the bid to win.

There's definitely an issue with initiative in general. But its really highlight with AdvS Guri in particular. You can't just say it's a general problem and not acknowledge the most egregious example.

19 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

This is kind of what I'm getting at. It's true she's probably too strong against lists that don't have I6 or a big bid.

that's the whole point.

19 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

That is true of a lot of ace lists though. If she really were stronger than Mace Windu, shouldn't we see her doing better? You can say it's because her wingmen aren't that good, but a) that isn't really true for scum anymore, and b) at least in the build you cited, there's only 90 points left for wingman and bid anyway.

3 hours ago, svelok said:

I really think Advanced Sensors Guri is one of the most distortionary pilots in the game once you look past things that are just ("just") undercosted. We lived through Supernatural Reflexes and Adv Sens Guri is arguably worse! In the mirror, the Guri with the bid wins almost 80% of the time!

I look at mace, and the fundamental problem is a points issue, all those strategies to beat mace works if you've got the points to . I look at AdvS guri and see her strength against things that move first as fundamental to the ship

19 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

I can't say I've ever seen it happen or heard of that happening in real life. But my experience is admittedly limited.

I think we can take it as a thing that happens after reading the blog.

19 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

This is false and doesn't make much sense. The percent of your list she represents is equal to the percent of your opponent's list available to counter her. 110 points of Guri has to be compared against 110 points of Jedi, or TIEs, or Kihraxzes, etc. Not against another individual ship; that's not a fair comparison. Sure she'll always win 1v1 against a lower-initiative ship; you should never let her get to that point (easier said than done blah blah blah I get it; if we keep changing the argument we never get anywhere).

she can 2v1 and 3v1 pretty safely as well. just saying she's fine because she's a lot of points doesn't matter because her fundamental mechanics are such that certain lists will start without enough arcs to beat her. This is different from an ace like soontir because with him there is a reasonable number of arcs where he can no longer feel confident winning.

19 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

Again, you act like that's always an option, but it isn't.

and you're acting like its always not an option. It's an option a lot more than its not.

19 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

There are obstacles, there are other ships, and there are multiple arcs she has to avoid, and she already has something dialed in that she then has to work with.

yes, but advS guri cares about those things less than other ships

19 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

Your job is to make her choices harder. You can say that's not possible, but if that were true, she'd be seeing a much higher win rate than she is.

I'm not saying its not possible, I'm saying that its far more possible than your comments were supposing it was.

19 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

I'm interested in empirical evidence rather than anecdotal experiences.

I don't know how to demonstrate empirical evidence more than movement maps. We've played this game before. Emperical evidence doesn't convince people

19 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

Experiences are useful for determining NPE status (which I can grant in her case, but with the caveat that it is somewhat subjective) but not OP status, which is strictly objective.

I don't care about OP. She's NPE and that's all that matters. I ain't here to win, I'm here to have fun and have my opponent have fun

19 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

If she's avoiding multiple arcs, she's generally not shooting.

I'm interested in empirical evidence rather than anecdotal experiences.

19 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

If she's getting shot at, she's leaning into her focus and not doing much damage herself.

that's fine. She's here to get points not kill things.

19 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

If you're shooting 3 focused dice at her 3 focused dice (which you will be as often as not) she'll be dying of attrition, slowly but surely.

http://xwing.gateofstorms.net/2/multi/?d=gwAAAAAAAAAA&a1=MQgAAAAAAAAA
i will give you one shot. any more than that and you're not 'spreading arcs' and 'blocking positions' in order to get that shot. If I allow you these generous situations, she takes 0.638 damage from that shot. which means on average it takes 11 shots to kill her. so if you get a shot in per turn (again, very generous), you still don't have the time to kill her.

I will however, demand empirical evidence that its likely to get more shots than this on her

19 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

The competition is in winning the damage race, and it is a game you have agency in.

I'm interested in empirical evidence rather than anecdotal experiences.

19 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

Naturally this depends on your matchup, but if you don't have anything with I5 + Bid in your list, you probably have 4-5 ships total vs her and Fenn.

which isn't enough arcs.

19 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

The world's best Guri/Fenn player stresses her all the time (watch his plays or read about them; it's not many times per game but does happen).

I've watched. He's got a lot of 1.0 hangouts in the playstyle. They're unnecessary risks. Listen to Jesper's bat rep on 186th against him. Stressing guri made her blockable and killable.

19 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

There are plenty of good reasons.

yes, and there's just as many to not stress her. Guri will stress herself, but its shouldn't be common enough to be a strategy to beating her.

19 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

You're oversimplifying by quite a bit again.

same team

19 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

Real games have obstacles, and unusual situations, and mistakes, and unexpected matchups, and poorly executed plans, and well-predicted maneuvers. You can't balance for how a perfect player plays on a perfect day.

I agree. Guri doesn't need a perfect player on a perfect day to be unenjoyable to play against.

19 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

Block one and you can cover both ending positions with one arc.

you can't just assume you can block and cover with one arc, real games have obstacles, and unusual situations, and mistakes, and poorly executed plans, and well-predicted maneuvers.

19 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

Third ship could be turning around or whatever and you're still ahead.

and my second ship could be nearby or whatever and killing the other ships

19 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

This is why PhilGC does use her reds; you have to be unpredictable or you die,

here we agree, that's the point of the AdvS.

19 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

and sometimes that comes at a cost.

which is minimal compared to other ships

19 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

It's all mind games, just like everything we love in X-Wing.

I agree

19 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

Against any one thing moving after her? Um, duh? That's why she costs 110 points. She's not OP against three or four things moving before her though...

She really is though, unless you're assuming those 3-4 things are like a whole rebel beef list. In which case, sure I agree. Guri is not so OP that her 110pts can take on 200pts of an enemy list.

19 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

You can't just throw these blanket statements out there and expect to be taken seriously...

I wasn't going to be taken seriously either way

@Biophysical and @svelok thank you for offering your thoughts and perspective. I suppose in some ways this discussion is much like discussions the blog has started about gas clouds in the past. I see your point that an advanced sensor Guri is a bad mechanic for the game.

On the flip side, advanced sensors Guri is the best Guri, so I'll keep playing it until it is no longer the best Guri.

@gennataos I'm certainly not mad at anyone, and hope no ones mad at me for this discussion!

But you're right, this was never intended to be a discussion on loving or hating Ad Sense Guri.

I personally never play the get points and run strategy. Even if it might be the "correct" one. I think the only game I had go to time at St. Louis Grands was against a republic beef list that just took forever to chew through. Many 2 ship lists require aggression to have a chance.

8 minutes ago, jagsba said:

I don't care about OP. She's NPE and that's all that matters. I ain't here to win, I'm here to have fun and have my opponent have fun

I assume you mean this as an advocate for change on a mechanic that you think is bad for the game, right?

1 minute ago, MidWestScrub said:

@gennataos I'm certainly not mad at anyone, and hope no ones mad at me for this discussion!

I'm not sure if I've ever seen you mad. If I have, your mad is different than canonical mad.

2 minutes ago, MidWestScrub said:

I personally never play the get points and run strategy. Even if it might be the "correct" one. I think the only game I had go to time at St. Louis Grands was against a republic beef list that just took forever to chew through.

Truth, this guy is usually lounging comfortably when time expires.

3 minutes ago, MidWestScrub said:

Many 2 ship lists require aggression to have a chance.

I'm learning that. Going cautious and slow just means I lose...later.

1 minute ago, gennataos said:

I assume you mean this as an advocate for change on a mechanic that you think is bad for the game, right?

I want to say yes, but @Boom Owl told me I'm not allowed to use the word bad. Honestly the dream is to drop the sensor slot off Guri. She's one of my favorite ships but I hate how I feel and how my opponents feel when playing her with advanced sensors. but it's so clearly the correct choice I can't justify flying her competitively without it.

Just now, jagsba said:

I want to say yes, but @Boom Owl told me I'm not allowed to use the word bad.

People have responded to you as if you're two different people, but I'm growing skeptical.

9 minutes ago, MidWestScrub said:

@Biophysical and @svelok thank you for offering your thoughts and perspective. I suppose in some ways this discussion is much like discussions the blog has started about gas clouds in the past. I see your point that an advanced sensor Guri is a bad mechanic for the game.

On the flip side, advanced sensors Guri is the best Guri, so I'll keep playing it until it is no longer the best Guri.

You're the one that brought up half your opponents hating playing against you, not me.

1 minute ago, gennataos said:

People have responded to you as if you're two different people, but I'm growing skeptical.

We were both at worlds, so I can in fact say we've been seen in the same room

13 minutes ago, MidWestScrub said:

On the flip side, advanced sensors Guri is the best Guri, so I'll keep playing it until it is no longer the best Guri.

if you ever need a break, one of my favorite fun lists is three zealots and guri with predator. It's nice to see that if they ever to remove advS from contention she's got a chance at still being playable

13 minutes ago, MidWestScrub said:

I personally never play the get points and run strategy. Even if it might be the "correct" one. I think the only game I had go to time at St. Louis Grands was against a republic beef list that just took forever to chew through. Many 2 ship lists require aggression to have a chance.

Farmers got a diatribe against swarms lists always going to time, but I very rarely do when I play them. I think both styles have the potential to go to time, but in reality they both snowball one way or the other relatively quickly

Pre-movement reposition options are probably always going to be broken.

Her price would have to come way down if she lost the sensor slot.

I feel like something overlooked in this post is that these very powerful two-ship lists actually encourage the generic swarms which the author dislikes so much. If you spend points on a smaller number of mid-range ships and upgrades, it's easier for aces to dodge out of your limited number of arcs, and you're spending points on a higher initiative value which does you no good; a solution is load up on cheapo generic ships for maximum arc coverage and maximum ability to bleed resources like force or token stacks with multiple shots.

43 minutes ago, jagsba said:

I'm not allowed to use the word bad

Not out here.

2 hours ago, svelok said:

So, there's two different meanings of broken in play. There's a difference between Obi-wan, whose price is broken; and Guri (w/ AS), whose mechanics are broken. She fundamentally warps the game in her function, if she's 170 points that doesn't mean she's still good.

...

But in this case, we have many reasons to consider AS Guri abusive, whereas the value in keeping AS Guri in the game is "well some people like playing her". Or, in other words, it will always be a fundamentally subjective matter. Focusing on winrate is a case of missing the argument altogether.

This is an extremely good write-up. Thank you.

59 minutes ago, jagsba said:

Svelok listed her win rates against other i5s with the bid and without. You can look at comparisons to other aces and see that the difference between the bid and not is huge with guri compared to others. As a decent stand in, look at soontir fel (http://advancedtargeting.computer/pilot.html?pilot=soontirfel) who I'd say is a good example of an ace people think needs the bid to win.

There's definitely an issue with initiative in general. But its really highlight with AdvS Guri in particular. You can't just say it's a general problem and not acknowledge the most egregious example.

And thank you, too. This is the kind of data that I was looking for.

59 minutes ago, jagsba said:

and you're acting like its always not an option. It's an option a lot more than its not. she can 2v1 and 3v1 pretty safely as well. just saying she's fine because she's a lot of points doesn't matter because her fundamental mechanics are such that certain lists will start without enough arcs to beat her. This is different from an ace like soontir because with him there is a reasonable number of arcs where he can no longer feel confident winning.

I'm not arguing that she doesn't have much better or worse matchups than a lot of lists do. This seems to have been abundantly proven. What I'm trying to learn at this point is whether she mainly has a super-strong matchup against I5s with less bid, or if she also does against lower-initiative beef and swarms; I'm suspecting that her lead against those isn't as strong, but I don't know yet. The hypothesis being that if the Bid/First-Second issue were somehow resolved or rebalanced, perhaps it would rein the NPE back in to acceptable levels?

I find playing AS Guri to be enjoyable just as I find playing SNR aces enjoyable. And SNR aces are still legal and actually still competitive, though you did say that they're no longer an issue. They're certainly not taken nearly as often anymore. And if it is such an issue, why hasn't Precognitive Reflexes been a part of the conversation? It represents a very similar mechanic, though of course without Guri's bendy-roll, which naturally should not be underestimated.

I think this is where I'm starting to come down on this: Pre-maneuver repositioning does remove a certain amount of counterplay agency. Any such ability should be priced in such a way that it strikes a balance between representing the level of power involved and representing the level of agency involved. Suppose you raised her cost until those specific matchups who would walk away instead say "huh, this will be a tough nut to crack." At the same time, Guri will be facing a lot more lists the same way. Would this be possible? Certainly it would "kill" her competitive viability, the same way that SNR, Gunner Luke, and Boba/Marauder/Han were "killed" by points nerfs (their deaths were greatly exaggerated).

59 minutes ago, jagsba said:

I agree. Guri doesn't need a perfect player on a perfect day to be unenjoyable to play against.

you can't just assume you can block and cover with one arc, real games have obstacles, and unusual situations, and mistakes, and poorly executed plans, and well-predicted maneuvers.

A good observation. I don't disagree.

59 minutes ago, jagsba said:

I wasn't going to be taken seriously either way

I think you underestimate either my charity or my openmindedness. My track record shows I can be convinced and won over by reasonable arguments. I've changed my mind on lots of things here on the forums. I just have a preference to give the benefit of the doubt to the devs and/or the status quo. I'm way more on-the-fence than I was at the start of this thread. Half of my arguments have been more "devils advocate" than actual sincere opinions; that's my modus operandi. Your polemical attitude here is making that a little tricky for me though – I really don't like bandwagoning.

17 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

And thank you, too. This is the kind of data that I was looking for.

yup, just note that the guri numbers are much lower so likely more noisy

17 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

I'm not arguing that she doesn't have much better or worse matchups than a lot of lists do. This seems to have been abundantly proven. What I'm trying to learn at this point is whether she mainly has a super-strong matchup against I5s with less bid, or if she also does against lower-initiative beef and swarms; I'm suspecting that her lead against those isn't as strong, but I don't know yet. The hypothesis being that if the Bid/First-Second issue were somehow resolved or rebalanced, perhaps it would rein the NPE back in to acceptable levels?

its hard to say, there's a lot more data on her against other high i things than against low init stuff. She doesn't seem to do great against droid swarms, but a lot of other pilots you'd consider for 2 ship lists seem to as well. I'd bet thats more on the droids being a little undercosted right now and being better at tanking shots than most other swarms.

17 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

I find playing AS Guri to be enjoyable just as I find playing SNR aces enjoyable. And SNR aces are still legal and actually still competitive, though you did say that they're no longer an issue.

they're absolutely same team as guri. I have just as much problem with them as AdvS guri.

17 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

They're certainly not taken nearly as often anymore. And if it is such an issue, why hasn't Precognitive Reflexes been a part of the conversation? It represents a very similar mechanic, though of course without Guri's bendy-roll, which naturally should not be underestimated.

precog is also same team. I kind of don't differentiate between SNR and precog, they're functionally the same card.

17 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

I think this is where I'm starting to come down on this: Pre-maneuver repositioning does remove a certain amount of counterplay agency.

yup that's all I'm trying to say. of course its not an autowin, but it does counter some things real hard.

17 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

Any such ability should be priced in such a way that it strikes a balance between representing the level of power involved and representing the level of agency involved.

I'm heavy on the 'just don't have those abilities,' since I view that as maximizing the enjoyment of the game. Even if they're expensive, they still can be played.

17 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

Suppose you raised her cost until those specific matchups who would walk away instead say "huh, this will be a tough nut to crack." At the same time, Guri will be facing a lot more lists the same way.

I think she's pretty binary, either shes cheap enough that the rest of your ships get you to an end game that is unfun for your opponent, or she's too expensive and can't really win.

17 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

Would this be possible? Certainly it would "kill" her competitive viability, the same way that SNR, Gunner Luke, and Boba/Marauder/Han were "killed" by points nerfs (their deaths were greatly exaggerated).

I agree, all those things you listed aren't actually dead, they're still in the usable points, they just feel worse because of the points jump so people don't play them

17 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

A good observation. I don't disagree.

same team

17 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

I think you underestimate either my charity or my openmindedness. My track record shows I can be convinced and won over by reasonable arguments. I've changed my mind on lots of things here on the forums. I just have a preference to give the benefit of the doubt to the devs and/or the status quo. I'm way more on-the-fence than I was at the start of this thread. Half of my arguments have been more "devils advocate" than actual sincere opinions; that's my modus operandi. Your polemical attitude here is making that a little tricky for me though – I really don't like bandwagoning.

I think playing devils advocate felt like you coming on strong, so i went strong the other way.

4 hours ago, jagsba said:

I'm not allowed to use the word bad

You have to define it first and mark it with all kinds of ridiculous characters. I can tell you [all*] about it.

*not actually all

5 hours ago, jagsba said:

It's nice to see that if they ever to remove advS from contention she's got a chance at still being playable

I mean, surely this is a given, right? If generic Vipers are making top 4's at worlds, surely a ship that does what they do at higher initiative with a free mod is basically guaranteed to be playable?

4 minutes ago, DR4CO said:

I mean, surely this is a given, right? If generic Vipers are making top 4's at worlds, surely a ship that does what they do at higher initiative with a free mod is basically guaranteed to be playable?

Points dependent

10 hours ago, DR4CO said:

I mean, surely this is a given, right? If generic Vipers are making top 4's at worlds, surely a ship that does what they do at higher initiative with a free mod is basically guaranteed to be playable?

But Guri doesn't do what they do. The strength of generic Vipers is in raw numbers combined with their mobility. Guri, however, is really expensive even when built cheap. 18-16 points more than a generic is a pretty steep.

She's kind of too expensive for a 3-ace build, too. Scum just doesn't have obvious pieces to run with her. Guri, Fenn Rau, and Old T together only has 12 points to play with before any upgrades. That's just not going to cut it in a world of Jedi.

Here's what that makes me think: Scum needs a real, legitimate pocket ace. Serissu doesn't count, IMHO. I like her, she's solid (those rerolls really add up over a game), and I think she could maybe fit in with some mixed high init Kihraxz or such. But having someone like Duchess or Tallie/L'ulo who'd be actually mobile while gaining a token and cost under 50 points would be a great piece. The issue is there isn't really a ship chassis for it. Rebels will probably eventually get an RZ-1 at Init 5 or 6. Scum would need something entirely new.

3 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

But Guri doesn't do what they do. The strength of generic Vipers is in raw numbers. Guri, however, is really expensive even when built cheap. 18-16 points more than a generic is a pretty steep.

She's kind of too expensive for a 3-ace build, too. Scum just doesn't have obvious pieces to run with her. Guri, Fenn Rau, and Old T together only has 12 points to play with before any upgrades. That's just not going to cut it in a world of Jedi.

Here's what that makes me think: Scum needs a real, legitimate pocket ace. Serissu doesn't count, IMHO. I like her, she's solid (those rerolls really add up over a game), and I think she could maybe fit in with some mixed high init Kihraxz or such. But having someone like Duchess or Tallie/L'ulo who'd be actually mobile while gaining a token and cost under 50 points would be a great piece. The issue is there isn't really a ship chassis for it. Rebels will probably eventually get an RZ-1 at Init 5 or 6. Scum would need something entirely new.

This is largely the issue. Guri with ad sense is an NPE. But she's priced to have it. So without it she really isn't any good. And even if she was, what in the world do you run with her?