During the stream someone asked about Cikatro Vizago enabling a ship to have 2 Deadman's Switches and Max was very firm when he said no.
Portion of the Stream where this occurred:

😠 To FFG: If S&V is supposed to depend on their "tricks" please stop removing them. Cik now has 0 value, even in casual play...

Having played this combo at the Australian System Open it is totally not worth it. You are missing nothing and preventing anyone from trying it again is essentially addition by subtraction.

Then again, back then Separatist swarms weren’t so popular...

Wasn't this already known, though? Once we knew he couldn't move inappropriate Cloaking Devices over, I think consensus became he couldn't do double DMS.

I've always understood that if you can't equip multiple copies of the same upgrade (i.e. ordnance), Illicits would fall into the same category. I can see how the Cikatro case could be made, though.

Yeah, this has been known for a while that you cant double up on upgrades.

5 minutes ago, feltipern1 said:

I've always understood that if you can't equip multiple copies of the same upgrade (i.e. ordnance), Illicits would fall into the same category. I can see how the Cikatro case could be made, though.

2 minutes ago, MegaSilver said:

Yeah, this has been known for a while that you cant double up on upgrades.

Read the FAQ answer again, fully.

Q: Can Cikatro Vizago [ ] exchange an upgrade card onto
a ship that could not normally equip it (such as equipping a
Stealth Device to a Z-95 Headhunter and then exchanging it
with a Rigged Cargo Chute on a YV-666)?
A: No. Cikatro Vizago cannot move the Rigged Cargo Chute to the Z-95 due
to the Z-95 not meeting the “Medium or large ship” restriction on Rigged
Cargo Chute, as described in Upgrade Cards.

The answer was based on the contents of the restriction box on the upgrade cards themselves.

I hadn't seen anything at all against double DMS till now, where has this consensus been hiding?

I've not even been rebuked when posting about it. Pointing out such things to unwise posters is surely forum law!

I perfectly understand the no double upgrade restriction, but also understood that it stopped at squad building. Even the base size restriction never went that far... or so I thought.

Alas, I accept. Boo. It's not good, but it really is fun.

We can still perma cloak a Quad, right? Cikatro must exist for some reason.

2 minutes ago, Cuz05 said:

I hadn't seen anything at all against double DMS till now, where has this consensus been hiding?

I've not even been rebuked when posting about it. Pointing out such things to unwise posters is surely forum law!

I perfectly understand the no double upgrade restriction, but also understood that it stopped at squad building. Even the base size restriction never went that far... or so I thought.

Alas, I accept. Boo. It's not good, but it really is fun.

We can still perma cloak a Quad, right? Cikatro must exist for some reason.

The same reason the astromech that lets you attack friendlies exists: because they thought it would be funny text to put on a card.

It's not a big deal to me because I felt it was too impractical and costly at 7-8pts + list building requirements for a gimmick that can backfire or simply be defused by being out of range 1 when it blows.

Vizago still has permanent cloaking shenanigans (or did they remove that too?) and discounted Inertial Dampeners for very high initiative ships if you happen to have the right slots and initiatives -- I1 ship with ID + I6+ ship with CC + Vizago = 6pts total for ID on an I6+ and bonus Vizago and CC vs. 8pts to put just ID directly on an I6+ ship. The latter is mostly relevant just for C-ROCs in Epic though, since odds are there'll be low initiative illicit ships and an empty crew slot somewhere to slap the required upgrades together for a discounted ID on a C-ROC which regenerates a shield every turn keeping ID useful, and Vizago and the extra CC being included makes it easier to include Cloaking Device for permanent cloaking a couple of your ships.

4 minutes ago, Matanui3 said:

The same reason the astromech that lets you attack friendlies exists: because they thought it would be funny text to put on a card.

That seems to summarize every "trick" in S&V's locker. "Hey this sounds neat!" Said neat thing has no use or value outside of looking neat...

9 minutes ago, Cuz05 said:

We can still perma cloak a Quad, right?

Technically yes (depends on the upgrade not being on the ship when the check would happen), but I don't expect that to last much longer with the side of the mouth nerfs they've hitting the faction with.

31 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

That seems to summarize every "trick" in S&V's locker. "Hey this sounds neat!" Said neat thing has no use or value outside of looking neat...

Except for one pilot that's not even Scum that ruins it for the rest of us anyway.

Damnit, Han.

Meh. I agree with @Enigami , the combo was too expensive and prone to premature triggering/avoidance. I've yet to see a real use for Vizago though, so updating him to cost 0 would be a good start.

To call such a rare and never-useful combo a nerf is a bit of a stretch.

19 hours ago, Hiemfire said:

Read the FAQ answer again, fully.

Q: Can Cikatro Vizago [ ] exchange an upgrade card onto
a ship that could not normally equip it (such as equipping a
Stealth Device to a Z-95 Headhunter and then exchanging it
with a Rigged Cargo Chute on a YV-666)?
A: No. Cikatro Vizago cannot move the Rigged Cargo Chute to the Z-95 due
to the Z-95 not meeting the “Medium or large ship” restriction on Rigged
Cargo Chute, as described in Upgrade Cards.

The answer was based on the contents of the restriction box on the upgrade cards themselves.

Now read the "Upgrade Cards" section of that same Rules Reference again.

- "A Ship cannot equip more than one copy of the same card."

And as we know from the golden rules, "cannot" is an absolute and cannot be overridden by other effects. That logically includes Vizago.

1 hour ago, PhantomFO said:

Now read the "Upgrade Cards" section of that same Rules Reference again.

- "A Ship cannot equip more than one copy of the same card."

And as we know from the golden rules, "cannot" is an absolute and cannot be overridden by other effects. That logically includes Vizago.

Reread that rule again. For convienience:

"Golden Rules

If a rule in this guide contradicts the Rulebook, the rule in this guide takes precedence.

If the ability of a card conflicts with the rules in this guide, the card ability takes precedence.

If a card ability uses the word "cannot," that effect is absolute and cannot be overridden by other effects.

During an attack or while otherwise resolving an effect involving dice, each die cannot be rerolled more than once."

Only card abilities with "Cannot" are absolute...

21 hours ago, Hiemfire said:

Read the FAQ answer again, fully.

Q: Can Cikatro Vizago [ ] exchange an upgrade card onto
a ship that could not normally equip it (such as equipping a
Stealth Device to a Z-95 Headhunter and then exchanging it
with a Rigged Cargo Chute on a YV-666)?
A: No. Cikatro Vizago cannot move the Rigged Cargo Chute to the Z-95 due
to the Z-95 not meeting the “Medium or large ship” restriction on Rigged
Cargo Chute, as described in Upgrade Cards.

The answer was based on the contents of the restriction box on the upgrade cards themselves.

It should be pretty clear that the spirit of the card is that you can't violate normal list building rules with it.

3 minutes ago, miguelj said:

It should be pretty clear that the spirit of the card is that you can't violate normal list building rules with it.

🤨 Riiight…. "Spirit of the card"... Which they decided to change in Sept 2019... Over a year after it was developed and printed...

Old FAQ for his ability (This is from version 1.04 of the 2.0 Rules Reference. I keep them archived. FFG altered it when Huge ships were getting ready to release, instead of limiting the mechanic they destroyed it):

Q: Can Cikatro Vizago [ ] exchange an upgrade card onto
a ship that could not normally equip it (such as equipping a
Stealth Device to a Z-95 Headhunter and then exchanging it
with a Rigged Cargo Chute on a YV-666)?
A: Yes. Restrictions are ignored after setup unless noted otherwise.

Ultimately, though, I doubt this will affect the majority of players, even if it does seem like a nerf. Personally, I've never done this, nor thought of doing it.

Yeah, Scum are getting the short end a lot, but that's why we have multiple factions

1 minute ago, feltipern1 said:

but that's why we have multiple factions

🤢 🤮 This sounds so much like the bull GW pulls it is sickening...

20 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

🤨 Riiight…. "Spirit of the card"... Which they decided to change in Sept 2019... Over a year after it was developed and printed...

Old FAQ for his ability (This is from version 1.04 of the 2.0 Rules Reference. I keep them archived. FFG altered it when Huge ships were getting ready to release, instead of limiting the mechanic they destroyed it):

Q: Can Cikatro Vizago [ ] exchange an upgrade card onto
a ship that could not normally equip it (such as equipping a
Stealth Device to a Z-95 Headhunter and then exchanging it
with a Rigged Cargo Chute on a YV-666)?
A: Yes. Restrictions are ignored after setup unless noted otherwise.

Right. They also clarified that restrictions are only ignored after setup unless noted otherwise . Vizago never otherwise says he ignores list-building restrictions. The first ruling was inconsistent with the remaining rules and could restrict their design space with future illicits, so they changed it after further consideration rather than leave a bad ruling in place.

16 minutes ago, PhantomFO said:

Right. They also clarified that restrictions are only ignored after setup unless noted otherwise . Vizago never otherwise says he ignores list-building restrictions. The first ruling was inconsistent with the remaining rules and could restrict their design space with future illicits, so they changed it after further consideration rather than leave a bad ruling in place.

Um... You're mixing up the 2 FAQs. Under the older one (which I quoted for miguelj in response to their "spirit of the card" statement. Spirit of the card = how a card was originally meant to function) the only thing that would block Cik from swapping any 2 illicits was if the upgrades themselves prevented it in their ability text.

v1.04 (old):

Q: Can Cikatro Vizago [ ] exchange an upgrade card onto
a ship that could not normally equip it (such as equipping a
Stealth Device to a Z-95 Headhunter and then exchanging it
with a Rigged Cargo Chute on a YV-666)?
A: Yes. Restrictions are ignored after setup unless noted otherwise.

v1.06 (the current, which they changed to after I asked on stream about how decloaking a huge ship would work since Cik could swap a cloaking device to one with how the rules were at the time):

Q: Can Cikatro Vizago [ ] exchange an upgrade card onto
a ship that could not normally equip it (such as equipping a
Stealth Device to a Z-95 Headhunter and then exchanging it
with a Rigged Cargo Chute on a YV-666)?
A: No. Cikatro Vizago cannot move the Rigged Cargo Chute to the Z-95 due
to the Z-95 not meeting the “Medium or large ship” restriction on Rigged
Cargo Chute, as described in Upgrade Cards.

Looks to read that the restrictions box on an upgrade card = "Cannot equip to anything but" on the card itself, so instead of just having the cloak token be discarded with no reposition they gutted the crew upgrade. With Max's further "clarification" yesterday (all squad building limits apply to Cik) on stream Cik has now gone from niche > meh > worthless...

1 hour ago, Hiemfire said:

🤢 🤮 This sounds so much like the bull GW pulls it is sickening...

In all seriousness you gotta get a grip. Every faction puts up with little nerfs. Rebels basically lost an entire ship when they faq’d replacement effects and broke Hera. You didn’t see them posting these big screeds about how rebels were getting nerfed AGAIN.

To call this change small is to make the word “small” mean less than it did before. This is nothing.

1 hour ago, Hiemfire said:

Um... You're mixing up the 2 FAQs. Under the older one (which I quoted for miguelj in response to their "spirit of the card" statement. Spirit of the card = how a card was originally meant to function) the only thing that would block Cik from swapping any 2 illicits was if the upgrades themselves prevented it in their ability text.

v1.04 (old):

Q: Can Cikatro Vizago [ ] exchange an upgrade card onto
a ship that could not normally equip it (such as equipping a
Stealth Device to a Z-95 Headhunter and then exchanging it
with a Rigged Cargo Chute on a YV-666)?
A: Yes. Restrictions are ignored after setup unless noted otherwise.

v1.06 (the current, which they changed to after I asked on stream about how decloaking a huge ship would work since Cik could swap a cloaking device to one with how the rules were at the time):

Q: Can Cikatro Vizago [ ] exchange an upgrade card onto
a ship that could not normally equip it (such as equipping a
Stealth Device to a Z-95 Headhunter and then exchanging it
with a Rigged Cargo Chute on a YV-666)?
A: No. Cikatro Vizago cannot move the Rigged Cargo Chute to the Z-95 due
to the Z-95 not meeting the “Medium or large ship” restriction on Rigged
Cargo Chute, as described in Upgrade Cards.

Looks to read that the restrictions box on an upgrade card = "Cannot equip to anything but" on the card itself, so instead of just having the cloak token be discarded with no reposition they gutted the crew upgrade. With Max's further "clarification" yesterday (all squad building limits apply to Cik) on stream Cik has now gone from niche > meh > worthless...

I'm not mistaking anything. The ruling for Vizago was changed in 1.05, when is also when they updated the "Exchange/Equip" text under "Upgrade Cards." That was the point in which the prior ruling was reversed, presumably in advance of things like Huge Ship illicits.

Whether the previous ruling also meant you could ignore the 1-per-ship limit was never explicitly ruled on, but seems pretty clear based on the FAQ entry that's been in place for the last three months. If anyone thought otherwise, then that's a case of trying to read what they wanted to read into this.

7 minutes ago, TasteTheRainbow said:

Rebels basically lost an entire ship when they faq’d replacement effects and broke Hera. You didn’t see them posting these big screeds about how rebels were getting nerfed AGAIN.

I recall you doing so in the thread where the change in mechanic was being discussed.

scum is not going to get much help other than the odd minor point week her and there. Khiraxz fighters were never seeing much play other than maybe Talonbane prior to the points reduction on the generics. seems like the moment scum gets some really good stuff it gets nerfed. of course I'm speaking from a one-eyed scum only perspective but despite the scum faction being largely ignored its still playable and even good in the hands of a good player.

holding out some hope that the Mandalorian series will spawn some cool toys for scum in the distant future