On 12/17/2019 at 3:43 PM, Matanui3 said:

because they thought it would be funny text to put on a card.

The entire scum faction.

Sad reacts only.

3 hours ago, Hiemfire said:

🤢 🤮 This sounds so much like the bull GW pulls it is sickening...

No idea what you mean there - I've never played Warhammer, 40K, or any of the other Games Workshop stuff. Admired some paint jobs, sure, but as for how this sounds like what they do - no clue.

In all honesty, though, there are valid reasons to play multiple factions. For me, I started off Scum and I'm still a Scum loyalist, but I had Rebels as a secondary. I switched that over to Resistance for 2.0 and then got in to Separatists, which serve, for me, the same role as Scum did in 1.0. Nasty surprises, dirty tricks, and much more synergy than Scum ever had. I get upset, like the rest of you Scum, as the faction gets nerfed, and as it gets to look longingly through the window at Coaxium Hyperfuel and reflect on the dusty old JM5K sitting disused at the back of the garage one more time before closing the door, turning out the lights, and going to bed.

19 minutes ago, feltipern1 said:

No idea what you mean there - I've never played Warhammer, 40K, or any of the other Games Workshop stuff. Admired some paint jobs, sure, but as for how this sounds like what they do - no clue.

In all honesty, though, there are valid reasons to play multiple factions. For me, I started off Scum and I'm still a Scum loyalist, but I had Rebels as a secondary. I switched that over to Resistance for 2.0 and then got in to Separatists, which serve, for me, the same role as Scum did in 1.0. Nasty surprises, dirty tricks, and much more synergy than Scum ever had. I get upset, like the rest of you Scum, as the faction gets nerfed, and as it gets to look longingly through the window at Coaxium Hyperfuel and reflect on the dusty old JM5K sitting disused at the back of the garage one more time before closing the door, turning out the lights, and going to bed.

Whether it was your intention or not, what you wrote comes off as "Jump ship and let the faction die." to me. I came into the game during the tail end of 1.0 because S&V existed as a faction (I'm adverse to playing core story factions in any game out of a, admittedly quirky, respect for their existing stories), praised and rode the transition to Second, then watched dumbfounded as the very tricks and semi-synergies the faction was designed to rely on began to be cut away bit by bit. S&V as a faction is slowly devolving to a pseudo-shadow of the other 6 paying a premium to sort of do something close to what the others can, and any time it shows it can do something the others can't or does something slightly better, that gets torn away. The change to Cik is just one more slice to the faction's already torn flesh out of many.

As for my reference more specifically, GW has a very bad history of picking 1 or 2 factions as their favorites, giving them a massive power level boost, and then knee capping the rest of the factions in their games to push players to purchase said chosen factions.

So after watching the clip. I’m not entirely sure he was responding to the question. They didn’t even know what DMS was and he said “you cannot have two of the same upgrade.” IMHO he was not understanding the question.... not sure, just my thought. Watch it again, tell me what you think.

11 minutes ago, JBFancourt said:

So after watching the clip. I’m not entirely sure he was responding to the question. They didn’t even know what DMS was and he said “you cannot have two of the same upgrade.” IMHO he was not understanding the question.... not sure, just my thought. Watch it again, tell me what you think.

I had caught that when it was being streamed, the answer itself still applies until something additional from FFG overrides or cements it. In part that is the point of this thread. We'll see come Jan if and how it is addressed. It does need to be addressed in my opinion and something needs to be done about the direction it looks like they're taking the faction before it becomes the faction of poorly made knock-offs sold for a premium...

5 hours ago, Hiemfire said:

🤢 🤮 This sounds so much like the bull GW pulls it is sickening...

I dunno. I come at this as a basically-ex-40K player, where I was conditioned to accept major meta upheaval as a matter of course, and was not shown much concept of balance across anything.

Where I’m going is that while I can agree that Scum feels like it’s lagging in some ways, I don’t agree with the broader perception that they’re the dumpster faction. I’ve seen them demonstrate some exciting and powerful capabilities. I’ve even seen them benefit from points changes. And while I’m not a tournament player, I would think there’s enough data out there to support the thought that the faction is capable of supporting a top-tier list in the right hands.

With that said, I have felt some frustration with changes to the way that several Scum ships feel in 2.0. I’ve posted before about how bummed I was about Scum Zs feeling a lot less capable than in 1.0, and I’ve downsized my Z collection from 5 to 2 because of it. Onetime powerhouses like the Kimo (admittedly a weird powerhouse, but still, powerful on a good day) feel kneecapped without the jank that enabled them. The Jump is not dead, but it’s been hamstrung. The Scurrg is kinda meh. The Y needs a discount.

I could go on with the bad. But I think maybe the real problem is that 2.0’s overall striving for balance undercuts the designers’ high-level concepts of “dirty tricks” and their effective application on the battlefield. Clearly there’s concern at the designer level about making sure that Scum’s past excesses are left in the past, and honestly, I think this looms a bit too large in their thinking.

However: I’m engaged in speculation about someone else’s thinking, which is dangerous and of limited value. Rather than dwelling on that, I would point at the good in the faction. The Starviper is potent enough to spark a lengthy conversation just today. The Fang can punch really, really hard. The Firespray is almost a completely new ship in 2.0. Even the once-lame HWK is born again. And I don’t care what anyone says: 4-LOM is an absolute Bad Dude who is absolutely bad enough to rescue the president. FIGHT ME.

So I think that while the original source of appeal that drew myself and perhaps others to the faction has fundamentally shifted in 2.0, I don’t think the faction itself has been left out to die as so many things end up being in 40K. I do hope the designers can find a way to bring back more of that original flavor, but it’s not *bad* now, just notably different.

Tl;dr: 2.0 Scum is a bit like New Coke / Crystal Pepsi. I do like it, I don’t think it was made bad on purpose, but I do miss the original taste sometimes.

2 minutes ago, CoffeeMinion said:

Tl;dr: 2.0 Scum is a bit like New Coke / Crystal Pepsi. I do like it, I don’t think it was made bad on purpose, but I do miss the original taste sometimes.

🤨 Interesting choice in comparison since both of those didn't last long.

4 hours ago, Hiemfire said:

I recall you doing so in the thread where the change in mechanic was being discussed.

In the thread. And never with a conspiratorial “They’re always just after me rebels!!!”tone.

21 minutes ago, TasteTheRainbow said:

In the thread. And never with a conspiratorial “They’re always just after me rebels!!!”tone.

So it would have been better to continue to derail the thread for the stream instead? It took a little bit, but the conversation pertaining to this one issue is centered here now leaving that one for other questions about the Wave 6 Preview stream.

Double Deadman's Switch seems like an odd hill to fight on. Like, that's not even going to be in anyone's top 20 things where Scum could be nicer.

I won't deny that the 1.04 to 1.06 change in Vizago was a bit of a nerf. He used to do broken things (Overpowered? Naw, but breaking the game? Kinda), now he just shuffles around legal stuff. Low-rent Jabba to get extra charges, maybe, or save points on Inertial Dampeners. Not worth it, but still.

But I think it was *one* nerf and not two separate ones. I think it's a perfectly reasonable way to read their 1.06 FAQ on Vizago to rule out double-upgrades. Only way? Eh, dunno. But certainly a reasonable way. If you've got to follow requirements, no duplicates is kind of the most basic requirement there is. It also seems pretty consistent with FFG's change from "do what you want" to "follow the rules." Almost reminds me of how ticked off FFG folks seemed when folks kept asking them what happened when a Rigged Cargo Chute was dropped on someone. FFG's language isn't always sufficient to please all the nitpickers, but I've found my life has gotten better when I worry less about it.

30 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

Double Deadman's Switch seems like an odd hill to fight on.

That's because it isn't the hill, it's a hedge on said hill. The hill is that FFG has been chipping and chopping away what makes S&V more than just a bunch of poorly made knockoffs with Mando Super fighters added since the first adjustment.

On 12/18/2019 at 8:43 AM, Matanui3 said:

The same reason the astromech that lets you attack friendlies exists: because they thought it would be funny text to put on a card.

I have seen R5 TK Cluster missiles munitions fail safe Torani used to great effect. Don’t discount upgrades because their use isn’t initially obvious.

They need to make some really cool new (Scum & Villaney only, due to Han) Illicits. Even in 1.0 it always bugged me that the "defining" characteristic of the Scum Faction, the "Illicit-slot" had so few and good upgrades (bascially GlitterStim was the thing). Scum ships tended to be a little more expensive due to the slot - even still true in 2.0 today, compare a Rebel Z-95 (23pt) with a Scum Z-95 (24pt), only difference.... the Illicit-slot.

In 2.0, they even nerfed at lot of the illicits, and basically imho the only one really worth it, is Contraband Cybernetics which is expensive compared to Leia - and then perhaps Deadmans Switch in Casual. Intertial Dampners shined briefly in the light of Han and Jake, but got point-nuked to oblivion.

A missed opportunity if you ask me. Of course they should not break the game nor provide Nantex-like NPE, but there are plenty of options for making cards that provide "an unfair advantage" without being broken. Trick is to make them charge-based so they can only be used a set number of times, or give them the "Leia-treatment" eg. make them unique and with a recurring charge, but require e.g. 3 charges for the effect.

15 hours ago, Hiemfire said:

Whether it was your intention or not, what you wrote comes off as "Jump ship and let the faction die." to me. I came into the game during the tail end of 1.0 because S&V existed as a faction (I'm adverse to playing core story factions in any game out of a, admittedly quirky, respect for their existing stories), praised and rode the transition to Second, then watched dumbfounded as the very tricks and semi-synergies the faction was designed to rely on began to be cut away bit by bit. S&V as a faction is slowly devolving to a pseudo-shadow of the other 6 paying a premium to sort of do something close to what the others can, and any time it shows it can do something the others can't or does something slightly better, that gets torn away. The change to Cik is just one more slice to the faction's already torn flesh out of many.

As for my reference more specifically, GW has a very bad history of picking 1 or 2 factions as their favorites, giving them a massive power level boost, and then knee capping the rest of the factions in their games to push players to purchase said chosen factions.

I feel your pain, @Hiemfire , as I was trying to say. I like the faction, I like the ships, but it's alright, for me, if I don't play it as much as I used to. Why does it bother you so much that I sounded like I was saying jump ship and let the faction die?

14 hours ago, Hiemfire said:

So it would have been better to continue to derail the thread for the stream instead? It took a little bit, but the conversation pertaining to this one issue is centered here now leaving that one for other questions about the Wave 6 Preview stream.

That’s good. The title isn’t. Expanding one comment on one basically garbage combo into another faction conspiracy complaint isn’t.