We've been having a heated argument in our group over the use of Auto Cannons.

It states in the Inquisitors Handbook page 175, "an autocannon is a very brutal weapon, noisy and hard to control in action, AND REQUIRES A TEAM OF TWO OPERATORS (firer and loader) for effective use.

The GM for this particular game prefers to be as literal as possible in all rules interpretation, even in cases where it doesnt make sense.

Can someone shed some light on this weapon?

I think I'm a little unclear on exactly what you're asking.

Yes, the description says, quite clearly, that you need two people to use the weapon effectively. Are you looking for a justification? Or do you want someone to tell you that you can use it by yourself?

The justification is pretty simple. The weight of the ammo, combined with the frequency with which you need to reload, makes the weapon extremely impractical to use alone. A character with, for the sake of argument, 50 Strength and Toughness, carrying nothing else, would be able to carry four reloads. He would also spend a third of the time reloading his weapon, assuming full auto. And all of that is provided that the stats for the weapon aren't assuming a team of two operators.

I recall a while back someone was showing off their RT build for an Arch-Militant with a Twin-Linked, Grav-Plated Autocannon with an ammo backpack. So yes, people have done it. I wouldn't allow it, personally, and I think your GM is well within his rights to do the same.

If you're really not comfortable allowing your GM to have the final word, go here:

http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_faq.asp

and ask the ffg guys directly.

You misunderstand... partially.

Nobody really has an objection to the rule that 2 ppl need to use it... It IS after all a weapon so over the top broken that not much being hit by it in 1 hit will survive anyway.

All we really wanna know is if its a 2 man weapon, or was it 2 man, for the reasons you just described. So basically , is the 2 man required a rule requirement or a feasibility requirement is all.

On a side note, how much does ammo weigh, was it 10% of the weapon weight or something per clip?

linearblade said:

That's not broken; it's meant to do that. Remember that the Autocannon is used for putting holes in light vehicles, ripping aircraft apart and turning groups of infantry into chunky salsa... that it deals an insane amount of damage seems quite appropriate, considering that it's a rapid-firing cannon, rather than merely a heavy machine gun.

Methinks a rephrasing of the question is in order:

Can the autocannon be fired by a single person, or does it require two people to fire?

At least, this is what I think the original poster is trying to get at.

Anyway, if how one of these is depicted in Dawn of War: Soulstorm is anything to go by, it can be fired by a single person. It's just that when it goes dry (which is quite frequently), the single person is going to have to spend a significant amount of time reloading the thing. The autocannon is big enough a weapon that simply leaning over with the clip isn't going to cut it; you have to be standing right next to the ammunition feed port to load the clip. What doesn't help is that we're talking about 40mm shells (or something equivalent) here. Trying to lean over with a stack of these is going to cause you to fall over. This is why, then, that a dedicated loader is required.

The best real-world equivalent that I can think of is a 40mm Bofors anti-aircraft gun, particularly the variety used on US warships.

-Kirov

from france

yes it can be use by one personne that can fire it alone with a lot of equipement : at the minimum

power amor

miu wepons conections.

supensor

back pack ammo.

otherwise you have to be very creative to justify lifting and firing with it alone.

Hmmm....don't agree with 8spider but here is my opinion:

Yes you can fire the Autocannon on your own, no problem, but carrying it around with alot of ammo is something else.

Though much smaller think of the Browning Machine Gun (Ma Deuce), one person would carry the tripod and some ammo while the other guy would carry the gun it self and another belt of ammo.
They would have to set it up, load it, and then start firing....the Auto Cannon isn't much different.

If one would want to use an autocannon without a second man, if your strong enough the rules allow it,

Additionally: though rules of the ammo backpack say you can carry 200 SP rounds in a 15kg backpack I would personally not allow autocannon ammo.

GrtZ,

Santiago...

Doesn't it say it needs a firer and a loader to operate? I would interpret this as if you can manage to carry all the weight, you're good to go. Is it cumbersome? Yes! Is it best to have two people operate it? Yes! Could one maniac do it by himself? Rambo!

Sure some character could wield such a bad ass gun by their own, their stats allow it.
But is it suitable for the game your playing...

Covert action in a Hive.... no
Negotiating with a noble of a Imperial world...no
A war world inviroment fending of hordes of Orks....well an Auto Cannon is just the weapon you need, though do not count on carrying it with you when you run out of ammo and are running for your life.

Personally I would not allow my pc's carrying around one...

But back on topic...

Can you fire it by your own, yes...load it, prolly...get away with it, prolly not...

If your character can mechancially lift it all by himself and carry the gear around, based on their encumbrance (not too hard for someone in power-armour to achieve with a SB of 4/6 and TB 4), what's stopping them, ruleswise. If your GM is saying "nuh-uh, the rules say this and thus we must adhere to them," smack him upside the head for me for being a sucky GM. Preferrably with an old metal dreadnaught miniature in a sock.

Firstly, he is perhaps reading the sentence wrong even from a literal sense: the IH mentions "effective use", not use itself. I'd expect a penalty to reloading, perhaps aiming, and probably not being able to Quickdraw it or ready something else with Quickdraw, but the IH does not bar characters from using it solo if they have the stats to carry it. it only makes mention of the ability to use it effectively (what doesthat mean?! THAT'S not in the rulebook!)

If your GM is being completely anal about "the rules don't mention it," ask him where the stats for children are. When they don't exist, he must logically conclude there are no children in the 41st millenium. Looks like the Imperium is in for a spot of trouble... a childish argument I know, but it illustrates the point that not everything is capable of being answered by sheer published rules alone.

In 40k, terminators can wield autocannons one-handed because their suits and sheer aura of badass give them the strength to do so. Does your GM believe there to be some sort of switch or circuit on the autocannon, which can only be activated in tandem by two seperate users? Maybe you'd do better with an assault cannon,on second thought: that doesn't mention needing two operators...

I think the real question is:

Does the GM find it appropriate for his game, if he says no.....stick to it...

Well, using Games Workshop as the canon point: As stated eariler, Warhammer 40k appears to make all autocannon usage either in 2-man teams (i.e. Imperial Guard) or by powered armour (Reaper Autocannon on Chaos Terminators). THEN AGAIN, in Necromunda there are Goliath (miniature) heavies toting around autocannons and ammo backpacks or loose belts, showing that a single person can carry and fire an autocannon.

I have always maintained that with enough Strength (say 50+ or Unnatural Strength Trait or powered armour) and/or Bulging Biceps or other out of the ordinary character setup (anti-grav plates?) a PC could use an autocannon (basically, any machine-gun style weapon of 20mm or greater) but would probably be limited by the ammunition he/she could carry. As for weight, the new XM307 (25mm grenade machine gun... I know, probably not a "true" autocannon") is only listed at 50lbs for gun, mount and fire control so figure 30-40lbs for just the gun. The heavy stubber in DH is listed at 35kg for the gun (or about 75lbs) so it is quite possible.

In the end, it is up to the GM.

-Cynr

I agree by RAW it is possible, certainly most of the heavy weapons are supposed to be team manned but exception individuals can manage it. And it's certainly possible to play such characters.

However, the kind of recoil that must be delivered by an autocannon must be far more than any human would be able to manage in my opinion.

Other GM's might rule otherwise, maybe that the weapon's recoil compensation allows it. Or maybe that it could be done with an autocannon that has been modded heavily.

Cynr said:

Lol the XM307 is a Heavy Bolter I think... being a grenade launcher. The Auto Cannon in 40K is a large weapon, very large, it would take an insanely large man to use it and I cant imagine many missions inwhich he would feel justied, if he walked up to a friendly guard post to dirty he may be shot onsite as an orc. lol

I don't see any reason why an Autocannon cannot be fired by a single person assuming they meet all the requirements for firing a heavy weapon (braced/tripod/bulging biceps/enough lifting and/or carry capacity, etc.).

It's a weapon designed, at least from a Guard standpoint, to be used in a two-man team. One man fires while another reloads so as to not reduce the rate of fire. If the loader gets shot its not like the gunner suddenly forgets how to pull the trigger. He can keep firing, but when he's out of ammo he'll have to reload it himself, which will take longer.

To say that a person is incapable of firing an Autocannon unless their BFF is standing next to them is a little absurd.

If someone has the stats required to lug around an Autocannon, then they can go for it. They won't be carrying much else, including reloads, so it's a trade off.

BYE

Err, I tought we were talking about someone firing it without bracing... silly me.

from france

one catachan sergeant move carry and shoot with a heavy bolter. he is a exception. so possible for heroesnot for grunt. if not enough look at the heavy in necromunda.

but does buldging biceps count here because it i use for test involving strenght like, bionic arms and not in the cariying limit. am i wrong? sorry for the mistakes i am in hurry.

Keep in mind that the heavy bolter is essentially an anti-personnel weapon to anti-heavy infantry while an autocannon is definitely an anti-heavy infantry to anti-light vehicular weapon. Given .75 caliber as the boltgun standard and 1.0 caliber for the heavy bolter, the heavy bolter is pushing roughly 25mm rounds or just inside the minimum for something classified as an "autocannon."

That being said, if the heavy bolter is able to be fired by a single person (unbraced I guess is the argument) then an autocannon can be. I would think that we simply need a name-specific autocannon that maybe has decreased stats for the Rambo-on-Rhoids! character. Again, there are Necromunda miniatures that show Goliaths using an autocannon (I think literally chained to a harness, but they are into that sort of thing!)

The problems with a character using this would many so a good GM could make it legal in game terms but not worth the trouble (unless for very specific missions) in role playing.

-Cynr