19 minutes ago, rhetor said:Have these lists been flown by total rookies, who just beat all that veteran XWing players could throw at them?
That's shifting goalposts, nobody was saying they were so easy that anyone could win major tournaments with them.
Just now, Dasharr said:That's shifting goalposts, nobody was saying they were so easy that anyone could win major tournaments with them.
Why increase their price, then?
7 minutes ago, rhetor said:Why increase their price, then?
You're using a particularly bad example of the Excluded Middle Fallacy. Are you really seriously suggesting that if Jedi aren't so good that a total novice can win a major tournament with them, then they're fine as is? I have trouble believing that's a good-faith argument.
There's a whole wide spectrum of cost/effectiveness ratio going from overcosted on one side of the ideal to undercosted on the other. Something that's good enough to win regardless of skill would be very far into the undercosted range. Nothing is that far off (nothing ever has been in this game), but it doesn't have to be to be undercosted enough to deserve an adjustment.
2 minutes ago, Dasharr said:You're using a particularly bad example of the Excluded Middle Fallacy. Are you really seriously suggesting that if Jedi aren't so good that a total novice can win a major tournament with them, then they're fine as is? I have trouble believing that's a good-faith argument.
There's a whole wide spectrum of cost/effectiveness ratio going from overcosted on one side of the ideal to undercosted on the other. Something that's good enough to win regardless of skill would be very far into the undercosted range. Nothing is that far off (nothing ever has been in this game), but it doesn't have to be to be undercosted enough to deserve an adjustment.
As I wrote in the beginning, Jedi lists require skill and luck to acheive best results. We've established that they have not dominated the game. Hence I do not see any urgent need to have them nerfed.
And there was an instance of way undercosted, too easy and too powerful a list - the 3 Upsilons, which were 'emergency nerfed' into oblivion.
9 minutes ago, rhetor said:As I wrote in the beginning, Jedi lists require skill and luck to acheive best results. We've established that they have not dominated the game. Hence I do not see any urgent need to have them nerfed.
And there was an instance of way undercosted, too easy and too powerful a list - the 3 Upsilons, which were 'emergency nerfed' into oblivion.
If by "not dominated" you mean that all those results posted on the last page don't count as dominant, then you're setting the bar too high. They're absolutely over-represented in successful squads. The 3-Upsilons won basically nothing major, as I recall, and I doubt that a total novice could've won a major tournament if they hadn't been nerfed; sooner or later the alpha isn't going to win by turn 2 and a novice isn't going to be able to beat a good player who gets behind the bat-wings. The problem with that squad wasn't that it won 100% regardless of the player (it didn't), it was that it had little counterplay and made short unfun games.
I don't know why you're talking about an "urgent need" to see a nerf; this thread is about the next ordinary twice-a-year adjustment, not an emergency points change. Correcting things that are not correctly costed, even if moderately or slightly off, is what these updates are for. It's the whole reason why 2.0 has the dynamic points instead of printing them on the cards.
33 minutes ago, rhetor said:As I wrote in the beginning, Jedi lists require skill and luck to acheive best results. We've established that they have not dominated the game. Hence I do not see any urgent need to have them nerfed.
And there was an instance of way undercosted, too easy and too powerful a list - the 3 Upsilons, which were 'emergency nerfed' into oblivion.
That list was nerfed due to being NPE, not overrepresented. A similar argument could be made for Handbrake Han.
Generic N1s go down one point, so you can fly 6 in a list.
13 minutes ago, Dwing said:Generic N1s go down one point, so you can fly 6 in a list.
I'd go further and cost them at 32. I suspect that the only reason they're more then 33 now is specifically to limit them to 5, so if you pass that breakpoint you might as well put them at their proper value which is probably lower than 33. They're similar in statline to Torrents (2 red and 2 green dice, 5 total hit points but some of those are shields) so that makes a good starting point for comparison since they're the same faction. Neither has an especially good dial, maybe the N-1's is a bit better. The N-1's ship ability is the main difference between a Gold Squadron and a Bravo Squadron. It gives the potential to save a damage or two each game, but at the cost of limiting the dial considerably.
All in all I reckon that the shields and dial that the Naboo has over the Torrent might be worth 1 or 2 points total, and add 5 or 6 for Full Throttle (potentially multiple Shield Upgrades but at a cost of going speed 3+ each time the evade token is gained, whether it's needed that urn or not, on a dial that doesn't suit the ability very well). That leaves 25 base for the Torrent plus 6-8 points for the N-1's advantages.
In context, I don't see anything potentially broken with a 32-point Bravo. Sinker swarms will stick with mostly Torrents because they want as many ships as possible to take advantage of the rerolls. 6x Bravo swarms still won't be very good - more durable than most swarms but offensively weaker (successful swarms almost always have an offensive buff like Sinker, Howlrunner, Sloane or Drea, or the Vultures' calculate-sharing).
7 hours ago, rhetor said:As I wrote in the beginning, Jedi lists require skill and luck to acheive best results. We've established that they have not dominated the game. Hence I do not see any urgent need to have them nerfed.
Amazing. Every word of what you just said is wrong.
To get the best results with any list requires skill and luck. Jedi require a bit less of it than the competition. Passive mods while stressed or blocked, double reposition without stress (so you've got full access to white and red moves), easy access to offensive double-mods when it's safe, regen to cover mistakes. Pretty much every tool that any other ace has, Jedi have a little bit better. Poe has to work harder. Soontir has to work harder. Fenn Rau has to work harder. Pretty much anyone else has to work harder to get everything that comes naturally to Jedi. Vader doesn't need to work harder, but he practically counts as Jedi, and probably anyone hoping for Jedi nerfs also hopes for Vader nerfs.
"Dominated" is a loaded term, but Republic is the 2nd most played faction in larger tournaments. They have the #1 and #3 most played pilots in Obi-Wan and Ric Olie, and Anakin and 104th are also in the top 10. Jedi are being played pretty well out of proportion. Some of that is that Jedi are more powerful. A lot of that is that they're just easier to use.
I guess "urgent" is also a loaded term, but they do need nerfs, and the regularly-scheduled points update is January. Upsilon level nerfs? I'd say no, but clearly they all need to be taken down a peg or two, ratcheted up a few points.
2 hours ago, theBitterFig said:Amazing. Every word of what you just said is wrong.
To get the best results with any list requires skill and luck. Jedi require a bit less of it than the competition. Passive mods while stressed or blocked, double reposition without stress (so you've got full access to white and red moves), easy access to offensive double-mods when it's safe, regen to cover mistakes. Pretty much every tool that any other ace has, Jedi have a little bit better. Poe has to work harder. Soontir has to work harder. Fenn Rau has to work harder. Pretty much anyone else has to work harder to get everything that comes naturally to Jedi. Vader doesn't need to work harder, but he practically counts as Jedi, and probably anyone hoping for Jedi nerfs also hopes for Vader nerfs.
"Dominated" is a loaded term, but Republic is the 2nd most played faction in larger tournaments. They have the #1 and #3 most played pilots in Obi-Wan and Ric Olie, and Anakin and 104th are also in the top 10. Jedi are being played pretty well out of proportion. Some of that is that Jedi are more powerful. A lot of that is that they're just easier to use.
I guess "urgent" is also a loaded term, but they do need nerfs, and the regularly-scheduled points update is January. Upsilon level nerfs? I'd say no, but clearly they all need to be taken down a peg or two, ratcheted up a few points.
You still forgot to mention that they already are the most expensive out there.
32 minutes ago, rhetor said:You still forgot to mention that they already are the most expensive out there.
Jesus are you doing this on purpose? Doesn't matter if they are the most expensive if they aren't expensive enough.
This is like saying a Mercedes that you will pay 10 thousand for is worse than a Toyota you payed 9 thousand for because it's more expensive. Yes but you got so much more investment out of 1 thousand difference.
(Disclaimer: not a car guy, apologies to all Toyota fans).
Or let's make it more obvious:
Luke 62
Obi with Delta 66
Oh no Obi is 4 more points, I am obviously going to take Luke.
Also Jesus Christ the difference is only 4 points. I think this finally hit home how much the Jedis are undercosted.
EDIT #2
WAIT A ******* SECOND. LUKE WITH SHILED UPGRADE COSTS MORE THAN OBI WITH DELTA.
Ok now I am mad.
Edited by Flurpy13 minutes ago, Flurpy said:Jesus are you doing this on purpose? (...)
Ok now I am mad.
Take a breath, then. Dring a glass of cold water. Even if it's just a game, not everybody have to agree with you.
1 minute ago, rhetor said:Take a breath, then. Dring a glass of cold water. Even if it's just a game, not everybody have to agree with you.
Oh so you are trolling. Glad we got that discussion out.
Also I'm not mad at you, you are not that important. I was mad at the difference in price.
Edited by Flurpy23 minutes ago, Flurpy said:Jesus are you doing this on purpose? Doesn't matter if they are the most expensive if they aren't expensive enough.
This is like saying a Mercedes that you will pay 10 thousand for is worse than a Toyota you payed 9 thousand for because it's more expensive. Yes but you got so much more investment out of 1 thousand difference.
(Disclaimer: not a car guy, apologies to all Toyota fans).
Or let's make it more obvious:
Luke 62
Obi with Delta 66
Oh no Obi is 4 more points, I am obviously going to take Luke.
Also Jesus Christ the difference is only 4 points. I think this finally hit home how much the Jedis are undercosted.
EDIT #2
WAIT A ******* SECOND. LUKE WITH SHILED UPGRADE COSTS MORE THAN OBI WITH DELTA.
Ok now I am mad.
Yeah Obi needs another 4 points. His last buff was absurd, easily double what it should have been. Especially with the CLT buff
On 12/17/2019 at 11:33 AM, DarthSempai said:Personally, even though I know it won't happen, I wish for the Tie-Agressor to gain the same linked action to rotate that the Tie-SF has. On paper the ship should be good enough to act as a cheap SF, maybe with 2 points knocked down to better reflect the 1 shield less it has. But even then I think something is missing from the ship. Either rotate link to have a better time on target and be able to move in any direction and still get shot, or really cheaper so you can just spam them.
Nantex doesn't bother me, it's got no shields, and ensnare is already prohibitively expensive.
As far as the Tie Aggressor goes it already came down in points but all it's toys went up, so it needs vtg, ion, dorsal, and barrage rockets to come down, and I sincerely want that. (Also I fly Y-wing swarms so of course I want that. )
As far as more wishes:
Rebels:
System slot for K-Wing
E-wings down
Moldy Crow down to like 8-9 points
All YT-2400 pilots to get 20 points shaved off and Outrider dropped down to something fair like no more than 10.
Empire:
Points down on the Reaper (not cause it needs it, but because it's my favorite ship on the faction.)
Delta Defenders at 63 points so I can run 3 with passive sensors <-biggest desire
Scum:
Drea at 40 points, she was nerfed too hard the last time.
Kimogila to get a systems slot so it can be given passive sensors and made useful.
First Order:
Doormouse to get a massive points break, and htd to come back down to where it was originally. There's no excuse to make him more expensive then Tavvy.
Points break on non-force using Silencers
CIS:
Points break on the hyena.
5 hours ago, Flurpy said:Or let's make it more obvious:
Luke 62
Obi with Delta 66
Do you think Luke is right costed?
I'm worried about Jedis. I don't think they are broken but the mainstream says I'm wrong.
Will we have an Order 66 in January? I hope not.
18 minutes ago, S4ul0 said:Do you think Luke is right costed?
I'm worried about Jedis. I don't think they are broken but the mainstream says I'm wrong.
Will we have an Order 66 in January? I hope not.
The question of is Luke overcosted or Obi undercosted is irrelevant. I'm fine with either, either Luke and the rest go down or Obi goes up.
But the difference cannot be 4 points.
5 hours ago, KingmanHighborn said:Moldy Crow down to like 8-9 points
Drea at 40 points, she was nerfed too hard the last time.
As a scum player I would love this, but Drea was 40 before the nerf and probably isn't going back, my hope is she settles down to 45. As for Moldy Crow, I wouldn't be surprised at all if it went up a point, but again I would love it if it went down hard like that, it would open so many list building options, Moldy Swarms would get a lot more diverse(could incorporate kimogilas or a starviper, for example).
Hmm other random thoughts, as I face a lot of empire:
Passive sensors up 1.
Afterburners down 2.
Darth Vader up 3. (With his normal loadout that's up 2).
Soontir up 2.
Phantoms down 2. (Still can't have 4 with Juke).
Punisher down 2.
TIE Aggressor down 2.
Inquisitor up 3.
Seventh Sister up 2.
Grand Inquisitor up 2.
X1s that aren't Vader down 1.
TIE Defender down 2.
TIE Interceptor that aren't Soontir down 2. (Not scared of that breakpoint).
TIE Reaper down 2(only -1 for Vermeil)
TIE Striker down 2. (Again, not scared of that breakpoint).
TIE Bomber down 1(except Jonus maybe). (Not scared of that breakpoint either).
TIE Fighter generics down 1.
Themes: Force up, overcosted/underpowered stuff down, alternatives to cost-raised ships down(I'm not trying to cost triple aces into oblivion).
6 hours ago, Cerebrawl said:As a scum player I would love this, but Drea was 40 before the nerf and probably isn't going back, my hope is she settles down to 45. As for Moldy Crow, I wouldn't be surprised at all if it went up a point, but again I would love it if it went down hard like that, it would open so many list building options, Moldy Swarms would get a lot more diverse(could incorporate kimogilas or a starviper, for example).
Drea shouldn't be more expensive than Kavil. In fact outside of force users I really don't like lower initiative pilots being more expensive than higher initiative ones.
As far as Moldy Crow goes there's no conceivable reason to make it more expensive. Crow and Outrider are both way, way, way, to much for what they do.
my wishlist is Interceptors at least 33 points or less.
10 hours ago, Flurpy said:The question of is Luke overcosted or Obi undercosted is irrelevant. I'm fine with either, either Luke and the rest go down or Obi goes up.
But the difference cannot be 4 points.
That's the problem. Luke is overcosted AND Obi is undercosted.
But, why the rest? The comparison reflects that things are worse than they are.
I want FO tie fighter pilots to drop significantly. Theres no reason Malarus should be 39 when Tallie is 36. I'd like to see around 8 point drops for most of the pilots except for Scorch and Longshot who only need like 1-2 points drops. I'd also love to see fanatical drop to 1 point and crack shot go up to 2 so there's an actual reason to take my factions specific talent.
Edited by SnooSnarryOn 12/23/2019 at 4:16 PM, KingmanHighborn said:Drea shouldn't be more expensive than Kavil.
This is like saying Sinker shouldn't be more expensive than Wolffe. Mass rerolls are so much better than a single additional die.
Point Wishlist by Schnez: