Do people not remember the hatred of George Lucas? The poor reception of the prequels? The petition to get Clone Wars cancelled? How KotOR was torn apart by "true fans" for not following the comics? There was even a documentary about people's hatred for what George Lucas did with the prequels.

There's always some fury about how Star Wars has died. It's hyperbole now. Sure, some people leave or naturally reach the end of their journey. But in the end the rage passes and people look back more clearly. Some people are picked up along the way, things initially hated end up being people's favourites.

Its as much about the long game. The balance between filtering criticism and having artistic integrity. I know that the new prequel drew in a lot if new fans, connected with them in fresh ways. In a decades time the whole narrative will be different.

A little perspective is always beneficial to have.

Of course Star Wars may be at a new cultural crossroads. It has become almost like a modern mythology. It's influenced and pervaded so much of our media. At that stage does it stop being it's own thing? How does it stand out from those it's influenced? Does it reinvent itself? Its a complex question when you take into account it's the property of a corporation with so much cultural control.

I suggest that we get back on topic for the thread - discussing the RoS movie itself - instead of wailing and gnashing teeth over "the death of Star Wars" as an IP and/or what George Lucas did or did not do in the past.

And preferably hearing from people who have actually seen the movie.

7 minutes ago, Bellona said:

I suggest that we get back on topic for the thread - discussing the RoS movie itself - instead of wailing and gnashing teeth over "the death of Star Wars" as an IP and/or what George Lucas did or did not do in the past.

And preferably hearing from people who have actually seen the movie.

I can't wait for the next 10 years of Palpatine memes. "mY BOOOOYEEEEEE"

Also, Chewie gets his medal!

I went in not expecting much and left entertained. After TLJ, I didn't have the need to go see it again and when I did, I confirmed I shouldn't have. I don't hate it as much as others do but it's not my cup of tea. I do plan on seeing TROS again and looking forward to catching the small bits that I missed in the first showing.

I think JJ did go a bit far in trying to explain out the biggest complaints from Episode 9 and I appreciate that even if I didn't need all of it. There were some good surprises (at least for me) that made me appreciate it more.

It did seem to start a little slow for me. Pacing throughout the movie was a little off.

On 12/18/2019 at 12:13 PM, StarkJunior said:

Rey's story makes a lot of sense, too, and is a great way to give them the ultimate **** you to Ol' Grandpappy, when you really start to break it down.

To be honest, that was the one part of the film's story that just didn't sit well with me, and facepalmed at that particular revelation. To me, it felt like the writers were trying to throw a bone to the "we hate Rey!" crowd, who have long since decided that Star Wars is dead to them so long as Disney owns the property, and in the process crapped on the whole aspect of her being a nobody with no special lineage that Episode 8 established. If anything, it came across as a hamfisted retcon to try and explain why Rey was so gifted a Force user, even after we'd already had Anakin who was (if Shmi is to be believed) a virgin birth and was essentially conceived by the Force.

I honestly feel that her standing up to Palpatine would have worked just as well if she weren't related to the old prune, if not better because here is this "nobody from nowhere" who was the one to finally end Palp's decades (centuries?) of scheming.

32 minutes ago, Varlie said:

It did seem to start a little slow for me. Pacing throughout the movie was a little off.

Heh, I can already here Scott from The Movie Defenders Podcast having a screaming fit

(For those that don't listen, his biggest pet peeve is when movie critics lambast a film for having "pacing issues." It's not quite to the extent of a Dennis Leary tirade, but it's not that far off.)

Overall, I enjoyed the film. It's probably the weakest of the sequels, but that's only because out of three films one of them is going to be ranked in third place. As I posted above, I wasn't a big fan of the retcon on Rey's backstory, and much preferred her being "nobody from nowhere," though it was very touching at the end when she took Skywalker as her surname.

Amusingly, there were a couple of girls that were Reylo shippers sitting near me, and the swooned/cheered at Rey and Ben's Big **** Kiss and his goofy smile, only to break down in sobs when Ben faded away, presumably to now be one with the Force; kind of bummed he didn't get to appear next to Ghost!Luke and Ghost!Leia, but I have a suspicion part of that was due to questioning of why Anakin got to show up as a Force ghost in RotJ when he'd only done one good deed (saving Luke) after a quarter century of evil, which itself wasn't helped with Lucas swapping out Sebastian Shaw for Hayden Christiansen. Seeing Han show up and a replay of their last conversation in TFA was nice, and seeing Ben finally have the strength to do what he must. Also nice to see that Leia did indeed train as a Jedi, even if she put down her 'saber for the sake of her child.

I did enjoy the voices of Jedi past, from Yoda and Windu to Kanan and Ahsoka speaking to Rey during the climax, in effect making her a vessel to finally end the plague/corruption of the Sith (or at least Darth Bane's version). And using the connection between herself and Ben to pass him Anakin's lightsaber was a clever usage of said bond, and a nice payoff of the segments where items from one location "bled through" to where the other was.

I do find myself curious as to where Rey got a kyber crystal from, now that Jedi: Fallen Order has pretty much confirmed that Ilum got turned into Starkiller Base. Cool that she didn't use green or blue, but yellow (or a yellowish orange) for her blade, having done what many have speculated and turned her staff into her own lightsaber.

Apart from the "Rey actually has a secret lineage" element, my other big complaint is that for what was supposed to be such high stakes of the final battle, all of the iconics (apart from Ben who ultimately suffered from the Redemption Equals Death trope and Leia who suffered from Actress Existence Failure) made it out alive. I think it would have been much more poignant if one (or more) of them had perished, be it C-3P0 or Lando or even Rey herself (technically she died but Ben decided he'd be the sacrificial lamb rather than her).

Taking my own stab at @penpenpen 's list of "plotholes"...

1. Lightspeed skipping. Apparently it's something you can do. Nobody seems surprised by it being possible, only that that Poe was crazy enough to do it. The downsides appear to be quite obvious. Those who are into the RPG mindset of how hyperspace travel works might have their heads explode, but let's be honest, that way was never how the movies portrayed it.
Agreed. I remember the "uproar" by RPG players at how the prequels (especially RotS) threw everything that WEG had established right out the airlock regarding the length of time of hyperspace travel. Though TFA dos establish that sort of thing is possible with a couple of Han's jumps, first out of the mega-freighter ("Is that even possible?" "I never ask that question until I've done it!") and then bypassing the shields around Starkiller Base by dropping out of lightspeed in the planet's atmosphere. Like you said, it's one of those desperation tactics that you'd have to be crazy to even attempt it. Even if it did muck up the old ship, I do like to picture Han grinning with pride at Poe's audacity to try that sort of stunt.

2. How did Kylo find Rey on the wrecked Death Star?
I figured it was through their bond. That or Kylo just using the Force to try and track her down (in FFG game terms, the Seek power) with Rey being too focused to find the MacGuffin to properly block him out.

3. Where did Palpatine get an armada and who crewing it. Squirreled away during his complete control of the galaxy? New recruits from the outer rim? Evil force zombies?
Right in that it doesn't matter, but odds are that what the First Order had in terms of military resources (especially that Kylo knew about) was a drop in the bucket, and that Palps had been preparing this for quite some time. If remember from Legends correctly, he did something similar prior to the events of Dark Empire, with him covertly bringing Imperial forces back under his banner (and even being disappointed that Thrawn couldn't see his hand in covertly denying the Grand Admiral resources needed to topple the New Republic).

4. Star destroyers can mount planet killers? We saw repurposed death star tech in TLJ and unprecedented Sith magic in this. Marry the two...
I just figured that was more of the repurposed Death Star tech we saw in TLJ, just with some more dedicated R&D time behind the notion to make it operational. Again, Legends already had Palps rolling out mega-class Star Destroyers a few years after RotJ with superlasers. Though the ones on the Final Order destroyers don't seem to be quite as potent as the Death Star, which was shown to be able to reduce a planet to rubble in a single massive explosion, but a destroyed planet's a destroyed planet no matter how big or small the boom is.

5. Palaptine's "Final Order" are 10 000 times stronger than the First Order? It's a ludicrous number, and if it's true, it might even be a plot hole. It still doesn't matter. For all intents and purposes, what he said was "a lot".
True, and again, this is him being the expert chessmaster that we saw in the prequels, quite possibly even laying the groundwork for this super fleet during Imperial reign, and keeping it separate from the First Order until such time as he was ready to put his schemes into motion. Get enough zealots under your banner, and being able to grow/breed an army of devoutly loyal followers is just a matter of time (which he had).

2 hours ago, Varlie said:

It did seem to start a little slow for me.

Huh? I spent the first hour or so quietly begging JJ to slow down enough for me to take a deep breath.

1 hour ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

As I posted above, I wasn't a big fan of the retcon on Rey's backstory, and much preferred her being "nobody from nowhere," though it was very touching at the end when she took Skywalker as her surname.

Agreed. On the other hand, if she was to have famous bloodline they probably handled it as well as it could've been. It ties in well with Luke's comments about her going instinctively straight for the darkness. The best execution of the worse option I guess?

As for over all quality, I'd say it's on par with TFA, behind TLJ and the OT. It's a more even film than RotS, but I think it probably loses out to the massively powerful operatic ending of the latter. Hate on the prequels all you like, they have issues, but for giving me the pure unfiltered feels "You were the chosen one!" hits me like few other things in the franchise, or in cinema in general even.

I guess that puts RoS sixth or seventh in the main saga, with it's greatest sin being playing it too safe. It ain't bad though. Not by a long shot.

Favourite character now that the ST is done, though? Hux! I just love it every moment the snivveling little weasel is on screen, getting treated with all the respect he deserves. Perfect ending for him. Give Domhnall Gleeson an award! Im thinking something like an Oscar, but a golden weasel instead.

Oh Hux, your death barely made me shrug. It might have been exactly what you deserved, or not, but honestly, you're so pathetic that no one cares. 💞

What a horrible, disappointing, lackluster and cliche ridden end to the series.

3/10.

This is the first Star Wars movie that I am not sure I would go back and see in the cinema, and i even saw TLJ twice. I even enjoyed Solo more than this.

so bummed.

3 minutes ago, Bojanglez said:

What a horrible, disappointing, lackluster and cliche ridden end to the series.

3/10.

This is the first Star Wars movie that I am not sure I would go back and see in the cinema, and i even saw TLJ twice. I even enjoyed Solo more than this.

so bummed.

Wait, you're not cursing Disney, throwing misogynistic epithets at Kathleen Kennedy or even mentioning a conspiracy theory? Are you sure you don't want to compare it to some kind actual childhood trauma? Not even a little ad hominem attack?

What kind of decent human being are you, merely being displeased with a film strictly on it's own merits? You, sir, are no true star wars fan!

...

Anyways, sad to hear you were disappointed. I get the feeling most people agree with what the flaws of this one were, just not how severe they were.

Winding down, still soaking it in. My initial thought was, "I liked it!" I thought it was very much like TFA in theme and tone. They felt very 'Star Warsy'. It also confirmed how bad TLJ was (twice over). It seemed pretty pointless after seeing what it was working towards. Could have skipped it all and gone straight from TFA to RoS. Given what RJ knew, he did a piss-poor job.

I thought it was very well done given what he was working with. I felt the 'connection' thing between Kylo and Rey was done well (as opposed to confusing and pointless in TLJ). I also liked how Leia connected there, as well (saved the boy who saved the girl). Kylo's redemption was pretty darn good. I felt that it was a "must" for the movie and it was great!

I said all along that Poe and Finn were pointless characters and I am glad that neither amounted to much. I felt that prior movies dropped off when Kylo and Rey weren't the subject of the action. Heck, Rey disappears for the end of TLJ like she's some side character. I am very happy for their stories.

I also liked many scenes I would call "Wow!" scenes. I liked pulling the ship down with the force, the ship exploding, teleporting her lightsaber to Kylo when he needed it, the Emperor walking around like a puppet, their confrontation at the old Death Star, the audience coliseum full of Sith (ghosts?), etc....

I don't really know what a million soldiers on Star Destroyers do (survive?) for a few decades all alone and don't understand how the secret never gets out. Yet, it was enjoyable enough for me not to care. I was entertained.

I think it achieved the "do no harm" level. One may not like it a lot, but at least it did not crush a character like TLJ did Luke. I think that is one of my standards...the Mona Lisa Standard.....you are given something precious so, it can be lackluster and have a different spin, but just don't change her smile (i.e. the essence of it).

Just got back - and holy crap. That was terrible.

If you let the light and noise and pew-pew-pew wash over you, its fine enough. But the second you apply ANY thought or logic to the script (although calling it a script is being extremely generous. It's really more of a list of bullet points than a story) it instantly falls apart.

Ah well. I still have Baby Yoda.

9 hours ago, StarkJunior said:

Anyway, it was visually stunning and I loved the musical callbacks.

I will give the movie this. The score was pretty good - Johnny has done better, but he's done worse too. And the art direction was very solid. The story may have been nothing but an endless series of fetch quests, but it looked really good while doing it.

10 hours ago, Talkie Toaster said:

Yeah, TRoS is shallow laser fights and cheap nostalgia but enough people will be happy with that.

Aren't all the SW flicks shallow laser fights and cheap nostalgia, interspersed with truisms disguised as nuggets of wisdom and insight?

9 hours ago, Sincereagape said:

The backlash did not come from the prequels.

Yeah. No. The PT caused backlash. No wonder, it's a trilogy of exposition really.... and plot-hole fixing and creation, kind of like Rogue One.
Not that your three factors didn't cause additional backlash of course.

After sitting with the film for three days I think I was too positive. I still really like it, but I think I am more leaning to a 7.5/10 now.
J.J. Tries too much for my taste. The movie tried to please both the TLJ fans as well as it detractors and aa is expected it falls on its face a bit somewhere right in the middle, I would have liked to linger a bit more in some locales as right now we planet hopped a lot and the movie could have done without a few plot points just to streamline it a bit more.
All in all though, I will still see it again and often and there are quite a few races/vehicles/planets that have peaked my interest enough to have ordered The Visual Dictionary (arriving today.)

22 hours ago, Vader is Love said:

1. I don't have a problem with that, it's just crazy and reckless to actually do it. But that the Ties could follow was strange to me.

I had the same issue during the movie, but in hindsight, it's just development of the hyperspace tracking technology from The Last Jedi. (JJ level development, of course!)

Did anyone else have KOTOR flashbacks with that Fleet? Was definitely getting an Eternal Empire vibe (or maybe Star Forge).

I think I could pick holes in that movie for hours, but at least unlike Force Awakens it was trying to tell it's own story, not retell another. As a trilogy, I think it suffered from having very different visions between two directors, and I think it should have been just one (don't really care which one, it's interesting to see what people do with storytelling in a universe all of us here know).

12 hours ago, Sincereagape said:

Sounds like Disney killed the franchise.

No I really enjoyed the movie it ties the whole sequel trilogy together. Disney hit it home. The score was excellent, the new characters where entertaining and Rey came into her own.

16 hours ago, LithiumBlossom said:

There's rules for it in Suns of Fortune already.

Thanks, I had forgot about that section on pg 142, Micro Jumps . There really needs to be a revised core book that collects all the dispersed rules and systems in the supplements into one place, and makes them play nice with each other.

49 minutes ago, Eoen said:

Thanks I had forgot about that section on pg 142, Micro Jumps . There really needs to be a revised core book that collects all the dispersed rules and systems in the supplements into one place, and makes them play nice with each other.

I agree. Could flesh out some stuff that's a little under written or left ambiguous. Like actually commit to social combat rules.

Did anyone catch the cameos?

John Williams was the bar tender on Kajimi.

The Ghost and the Collosus turn up in the last battle. As does Wedge.

Several of the Jedi voices were from the TV shows including Asokha.

1 hour ago, LithiumBlossom said:

The Ghost and the Collosus turn up in the last battle. As does Wedge.

I saw the Ghost and Wedge, I’m not sure how I missed the Collosus it’s huge.

21 minutes ago, Eoen said:

Wedge

Man, that made me so happy! Short, but so sweet, satisfying and wonderful! Wedge was always my favourite non-main character that appeared in all the films. I really enjoyed that second of him... of all the fan-service, that one was directed at (people like) me, and was the one that I was most happy with. 😊

17 minutes ago, Jegergryte said:

Man, that made me so happy! Short, but so sweet, satisfying and wonderful! Wedge was always my favourite non-main character that appeared in all the films. I really enjoyed that second of him... of all the fan-service, that one was directed at (people like) me, and was the one that I was most happy with. 😊

The only thing that would have made that better would be having Wedge at the controls of a ship. But I gather that Denis wasn't up for being crammed in an starfighter cockpit again, so being gunner on the Falcon works.

13 hours ago, LithiumBlossom said:

Do people not remember the hatred of George Lucas? The poor reception of the prequels? The petition to get Clone Wars cancelled? How KotOR was torn apart by "true fans" for not following the comics? There was even a documentary about people's hatred for what George Lucas did with the prequels.

It's funny how time changes things. The prequels (while not having the same degree of reverence the originals get) are seen as fairly good (if still problematic) films, and I suspect that in a decade or so, the sequel trilogy will be seen as much the same. Sure, there will still be detractors (there are detractors for the originals that can't fathom how the entire thing didn't crash and burn after the first one), but every bit of media, from films to books to TV shows to music has its detractors.

I suspect many of the people that are clamoring for Dave Filoni to take over at LFL are the same ones that wanted his head on a pike during the initial season of The Clone Wars, for how it disregarded the generally liked animated shorts by Genndy Tartofsky (guy behind Dexter's Lab and Samurai Jack), as well as foisting bratty half-pint Ahsoka onto the fandom (who was herself initially reviled but has since become a favorite).

5 minutes ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

**snip**

So you're saying Star Wars is like fine wine, gets better with age?