8 minutes ago, Bellona said:

I read/saw one theory that Sidious' predecessor, Darth Plagueis, was the one who experimented (in the laboratory sense, IIRC) on Shmi Skywalker so as to produce Anakin's "immaculate conception". The reasoning behind this theory was that the Chosen One prophecy was actually a Sith prophecy which had been planted in the Jedi Order with the intent that the Jedi eventually find the Chosen One and train the source of their own destruction.

Yes but there is no canon link between Darth Plagueis and Darth Sidious anymore beside the opera house story.

My theory is that Darth Bane transferred his essence to Darth Zanah and so on down the line to Sidious which means that from a certain point of view Sidious is Plagueis and all who proceeded him.

Always two there are, one to hold power and one to crave it.

57 minutes ago, Nytwyng said:

There's the dissertation, complete with a return of the randomly bolded screaming.

You're making a lot of presumptions here. Abrams' first installment in the trilogy is rife with the idea of forging one's own destiny. Finn does it by deserting the First Order. Several characters openly question why Rey would want to return to Jakku when there's a whole galaxy out there and she's made it off world. Having no immediate personal, bloodline reason to get involved is precisely Rey's stake in the conflict...she's chosen to get involved. These ideas flow nicely from TFA to TLJ. Her internal struggle was right there in both movies, too. She tried to actively refuse the call to adventure, she tried to recruit Luke to be the BDH, but had to step up and take that role herself when Luke refused. And, why does Palpatine need to "tempt" her (considering he didn't really try to tempt her with anything in TRoS, either...he wanted to use her as a vessel...or kill her...or use her...or kill her...depending on which scene you're watching). Even without a blood connection, he could have offered her the same sort of power that he briefly did when she first confronted him. Likewise, he didn't have any trouble draining life force from Ben, who wasn't related to him. So, there's no burning story need for a blood connection between them.

There's also the element to the first two films that's present in a lot of current storytelling: found family, and how the bonds and obligations of found family can be even stronger than blood.

As to your final point, it could also be said that the so-called Skywalker Saga is about the impact that one family had on the galaxy. In the prequel trilogy, a Skywalker plunged the galaxy into darkness. In the original trilogy, Skywalkers expunged that darkness. In the sequel trilogy, the Skywalker family inspired "just...people" to stand up to resurgent darkness and banish it. Except, of course, in the final installment, you can forget that, because it took a Special (who wasn't even part of the family that you deem essential to resolving the story) to get rid of the big bad and save the everyday people overhead who were inspired to fight for the galaxy's freedom.

Nothing falls apart if Rey's not connected to Palpatine.

Awaiting my next scolding.

First off, yelling and screaming in text is denoted by using all caps not bolded text. Bolded text is used for emphasis. This is a long standing grammatical standard. As such, I have no intention of stopping using it when I feel it’s warranted.

With that out of the way, let’s deal with the rest of your post.

First, the Refusal of the call, is a common element of mythic story telling and has nothing to do with whether that character is a part of a greater legacy. Also, her choice to join the Resistance didn’t require her to have any family legacy. However, her biggest struggle throughout the trilogy was finding out where she came from, who was she, who was her family, where did she come from, why was she left on Jakku? These were the questions that haunted her. This is a real issue that real life orphans and adopted children struggle with in trying to form their own identities, even children with loving homes. It is how Rey ultimately deals with the final answer to that question that drives her story.

As for the theme that “found family is stronger than blood”? Think about how much more impactful is that message driven home when that blood is that of the very personification of Evil, and she rejects that in order to take on the name of his enemy. That is a very powerful statement, far more impactful than her being a nobody with essentially no identity to begin with.

55 minutes ago, Nytwyng said:

No, she wouldn't have done that.

But then, I also wouldn't have missed it. As noted, it was the only part of the specific reveal that I appreciated. I would gladly sacrifice that response to the reveal to not have the reveal in the first place.

I would have. The film would have been all the worse for it if that wasn’t there. It would have lost a huge amount of drama and meaning. It would also have lost a lot of the themes which were needed in order to close out the whole Skywalker saga. And that, ultimately, is what this film was doing. It needed to tie up the entire nine film saga, not just this trilogy.

45 minutes ago, micheldebruyn said:

The problem here is that we already had a main character struggling with the devil's blood running through his veins: Vader's grandson. Making Rey a Palpatine adds nothing to that.

Wrong. Ben didn’t have the “Devil’s” blood running through his veins. If anything, he had “Adam’s”. Vader is more akin to the Biblical Adam than to the Devil, in that he gave in to the temptations that the Devil (Palpatine) enticed him with. Vader ultimately turned away from that in the end through the redemption offered him by his son. As such, Ben is not the descendant of the Devil. His legacy is not one of pure Evil. It’s one of Darkness and Light, of failure and redemption.

Palpatine is the “Devil” of this saga; Evil incarnate. Rey being the descendant of the very personification of Evil, yet herself rising above that, and ultimately becoming the “Avatar of Good” that finally destroys that Evil, is a far more powerful message than if she had been a nobody.

If she were a nobody then it’s not a story of overcoming a dark legacy to bring about light. It simply becomes about rising from obscurity to greatness, which is both what the Saga films are even remotely about.

37 minutes ago, Eoen said:

Come now, we’ve been speculating since TFA that she is a Palpatine. I wasn’t surprised in the slightest. 😎

36 minutes ago, Vondy said:

Indeed!

Among other theories. 😎

30 minutes ago, Bellona said:

I certainly recall that theory being among the many touted on the internet.

My personal favourite "secret background" theory for Rey was that she was related to Obi-Wan Kenobi.

Like I said. 😎

28 minutes ago, Nytwyng said:

May not have been surprising, but after the bolder choice presented in the previous installment, it was disappointing.

That “bolder choice “ spit into the face of the very point of the Saga films. It is one of the most divisive parts of that film, and the one aspect of that movie that I personally didn’t like, and I loved that movie overall. It’s because it didn’t fit with the overall theme of the Saga films. It was out of place. Johnson did it solely to subvert the fans’ expectations, overall themes be damned. Was it a bold choice? Yes. Was it the right choice? Not to me, nor many other fans.

18 minutes ago, Eoen said:

Now, I want to know more about her parents and the creepy Sith cult.

I think Ryan Johnson just wanted to subvert our expectations.

The parents who are now awesomely heroic for abandoning her. The Palpatine reveal allows Rey to absolve them without any work.

Johnson has said in interviews that he made Rey a nobody because that was the hardest truth that she could confront - that she’d have to make her own legacy. Meanwhile, Terrio has said he chose to make Rey a Palpatine so she would have to grapple with wanting a lineage but getting it the wrong way. But the way the movie plays out, she doesn’t grapple with anything; she finds out she’s a Palpatine and (after a ghostly kick in the pants from part of her found family) sets out to kill him...she never accepts him.

Here is my take on the ST: its an unnecessary postscript.

For me, it doesn't add anything of consequence to the saga. Its a brilliant train-wreck of a tent-pole spectacle jam-packed with fans service, genre nods, key tropes, cool scenes, and fantastic effects and music. It also introduces three likable characters and sets up their stories and trajectories well, and makes us ask the right questions about them. However, it also retreads plots, major elements, and themes without doing anything new with them while being ridiculously over-scaled and unnecessarily ramping it all up to ELEVEN.

In that regard its a classic Abram's special feature: high gloss, rapid fire, fan-stroking and utterly lacking originality. The big "Wow!" is followed by "so what?" For me the whole thing feels like a mega-blockbuster pastiche of the original films that should have been a reboot instead of a sequel. The ST is also disjointed because Disney didn't think they needed a single guiding hand overseeing all three installments like the OT and PT had. Abrams was forced to redirect and fill in a lot things the middle film should have set up for him which required bullet-pointing things that deserved more time (that's not his fault).

As for Rise of Skywalker, its an impressive roller-coaster of a popcorn film and I enjoyed watching, but its not any sort of dramatic or narrative fete. I would have preferred not to deal with Death Star III and Palpatine Reborn. There is a huge amount of material out there that could have served as an inspirational basis for something more original than "the exact same things happen in new and different ways!" Its also set so long after the original films that it feels too remote to really be a sequel. Its not the 19 years between PT and OT, but 35 years! I would have preferred the sequels be set 15-20 years after the Battle of Endor, but, they waited too long the fans would have freaked if they were cast with new actors. Actually seeing Leia start the Resistance and Luke overseeing Jedi Academy as the next generation was introduced would have felt much more connected.

With that said, I'm going to see it again on New Years Eve and I fully plan to have a great time with it for what it is: A Ringling Bros and Barnum & Bailey Circus style popcorn film.

29 minutes ago, Nytwyng said:

The parents who are now awesomely heroic for abandoning her. The Palpatine reveal allows Rey to absolve them without any work.

Johnson has said in interviews that he made Rey a nobody because that was the hardest truth that she could confront - that she’d have to make her own legacy. Meanwhile, Terrio has said he chose to make Rey a Palpatine so she would have to grapple with wanting a lineage but getting it the wrong way. But the way the movie plays out, she doesn’t grapple with anything; she finds out she’s a Palpatine and (after a ghostly kick in the pants from part of her found family) sets out to kill him...she never accepts him.

And I wholeheartedly disagree with that assessment of his. And if you really think about it, really, which would be harder for anyone to accept: that you’re a nobody from nowhere or that your grandfather is the very personification of Evil and the most feared and hated Tyrant in the entire galaxy? If you really think about it, the latter is the hardest thing any morally good person would struggle with. It’s like finding out your grandfather was Adolf Hitler.

Ryan Johnson simply wanted to throw the fans as many curve balls as possible and thumb his nose at the many fan theories being presented on the internet, as proven by a post he himself made of a photo of him holding a sign saying that all of the fans’ theories were garbage.

As for her not struggling with her finding out she’s Palpatine’s granddaughter? Bull. If she didn’t struggle with that revelation, she wouldn’t have tried to exile herself to Ahch-To. She wouldn’t have feared her potentially becoming like him, nor the inherent Darkness within her nearly as much. Rey’s spiritual struggle was in being able to come to terms with that revelation, accept it as part of her, and move beyond it and reject the legacy of that relationship to blaze her own. compares to that, being a “nobody” is easy to deal with.

As for her parents being “heroic for abandoning her”, classical mythology, as well as the Bible, are filled with stories of parents sending their children away, essentially abandoning them, for that child’s own protection. A great example from the Old Testament being Moses. His mother placed him in a basket of reeds and sent him down the Nile in order to save him from being killed by Pharaoh. So, yes, that act was heroic. It was also very mythic.

2 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

First off, yelling and screaming in text is denoted by using all caps not bolded text. Bolded text is used for emphasis. This is a long standing grammatical standard. As such, I have no intention of stopping using it when I feel it’s warranted.

Meanwhile, you routinely use your “emphasis” in a condescending manner such that it comes across as scolding if not outright screaming, regardless of “standing grammatical standard.” I’m not the first to say so on these boards, and I doubt I’ll be the last as long as your compulsion to randomly “emphasize” continues.

Now that that’s out of the way, let’s look at the rest of your continued attempt to convince me to change my mind about an element of a movie that I didn’t like (complete with its own truly ironic insert).

Absolutely she struggles with being left on Jakku, and desperately wants there to be something more significant to her life. But there doesn’t have to be some grand destiny, some Super Duper Special Bloodline that she’s part of. Instead, she steps up and makes her own place in the story. I find that far more compelling than being hidden away from Papaw Sheev and being drawn into events because Super Duper Special Bloodline Destiny. (And what, exactly, is that Super Duper Special Bloodline Destiny? Through Snoke, he says to bring her to him to find Luke. Then to bring her to him to kill her. Then just kill her. But then...wait, he never wanted her dead, he wanted to use her as a vessel. Then he wants to kill her again.)

Rey doesn’t have to be a Palpatine for there to be dramatic stakes to her choosing to personally stand up to Palpatine in defense of her found family. It’s enough for her to be the current culmination of the Jedi, and avatar of the light, 1000 generations of Jedi leading to and living through her. Having just learned she’s a Palpatine (figuratively speaking) 30 seconds earlier, she’s not abandoning anything or giving anything up, she’s not losing anything, because she never “was” a Palpatine (if you follow my meaning). She’s lived all her life with that Super Duper Special Bloodline impacting her at all. (In contrast to Luke who first learns the half-truth that his father was a Jedi who was killed by the faceless evil Vader, puts his idea of his father on a pedestal, then gets it knocked off that pedestal when that same faceless evil reveals the full truth. Luke actually has something to grapple with. Rey doesn’t. “Papaw’s the Emperor? Screw that!”) For Rey’s story to be the one of “overcoming a dark legacy,” then that “dark legacy” has to be put in play earlier than the beginning of the third act of the final installment in a trilogy. This is basic Chekhov’s Gun stuff...except that nobody even mentioned the gun in acts 1 or 2; instead, with 10 minutes left to go in the play, someone pulled the gun out of a drawer and said, “Oh, this? It’s been here the whole time. <bang>”

And now for a heaping helping of irony...

27 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

That “bolder choice “ spit into the face of the very point of the Saga films. It is one of the most divisive parts of that film, and the one aspect of that movie that I personally didn’t like, and I loved that movie overall. It’s because it didn’t fit with the overall theme of the Saga films. It was out of place. Johnson did it solely to subvert the fans’ expectations, overall themes be damned. Was it a bold choice? Yes. Was it the right choice? Not to me, nor many other fans.

So, obviously, I disagree. I think it fit with the first installment in the sequel trilogy seamlessly. And, I mentioned a post or two back Johnson’s stated reasoning for making Rey a nobody. (I also mentioned Terrio’s stated reasons for making Rey a Palpatine...and if Terrio made the decision, that means it was a decision made for this final installment, going out of its way to contradict the previous one, not restoring something that Johnson contradicted.)

Here’s the thing. You say you didn’t like it, and it didn’t work for you. You’ve given your reasons why, I’ve given my reasons for why it did work for me...and that’s it. I’m not spending post after post browbeating you and telling you all the ways you “don’t understand” the story, or why you’re wrong for not liking that particular element. I’m saying, “OK, you didn’t like it. That’s fair.”

I’m still not sure why you seem so bloody intent on proving me “wrong” or telling me that I “don’t understand” the movie simply because I’ve said I didn’t like a story element.

Which I’m sure you’ll continue to do. Complete with screaming.

Hm but isn't her heritage kind of pointless? You may proof me wrong, but for me it looked like that what happened was exactly what Palpatine planned: he said kylo "uhhh u can have all the power u want, just kill her" knowing that he is a Skywalker he can build on him to screw up. so he knows he will lead her to him, and will try to kill him with her help. Then when she arrives before him, he stalls her with great promises of becoming empress , the ability to save her friends, to rule, knowing that she is not that kind of person. Until both are exactly where he want them to be, bringing him the lifeband that he, or his minion, created between them.

Maybe that lifeband needed two very strong force users, so he hat to wait for a constellation like theirs.

So he completely wins, but then gets stomped because of reason ( too lazzy to kill both of them...) and then the 3 ghost of Christmas ehhh jedi show up to stomp him. Also smth that could have been done by any jedi who would be lying around there at the right time, so Reys training and all she did had no real influence on anything.

16 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

And I wholeheartedly disagree with that assessment of his. And if you really think about it, really, which would be harder for anyone to accept: that you’re a nobody from nowhere or that your grandfather is the very personification of Evil and the most feared and hated Tyrant in the entire galaxy? If you really think about it, the latter is the hardest thing any morally good person would struggle with. It’s like finding out your grandfather was Adolf Hitler.

You’re free to disagree. With the setup Abrams gave Rey, I tend to agree that finding out that she’s just another discarded person is tougher for her to deal with. Considering that neither she nor anyone else knew of her connection to Palpatine, discovering that said tyrant who died some 11 or more years before she was born, and whose name had never been associated to her would certainly be a shock, but had never remotely shaped who she was in the same way that her abandonment had.

While we’re at it, Luke tells her that both he and Leia always knew who she was. Luke...who took Obi-Wan to task for his “Certain Point of View” (TM)...didn’t tell her when she showed up. Didn’t tell her when he sensed power in her, when she “went straight to the dark,” nor when listing the faults of the Jedi...and specifically mentioning Palpatine/Sidious.

21 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Ryan Johnson simply wanted to throw the fans as many curve balls as possible and thumb his nose at the many fan theories being presented on the internet, as proven by a post he himself made of a photo of him holding a sign saying that all of the fans’ theories were garbage.

So now Johnson is psychic, too, considering Bob Iger commented on the TFA red carpet that he’d read and loved the Episode VIII script. It’s impossible to write a script that thumbs its nose at fan theories that didn’t exist yet, although it is, indeed, possible to acknowledge their existence (as with said picture) once they’re out there.

24 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

As for her not struggling with her finding out she’s Palpatine’s granddaughter? Bull. If she didn’t struggle with that revelation, she wouldn’t have tried to exile herself to Ahch-To. She wouldn’t have feared her potentially becoming like him, nor the inherent Darkness within her nearly as much. Rey’s spiritual struggle was in being able to come to terms with that revelation, accept it as part of her, and move beyond it and reject the legacy of that relationship to blaze her own. compares to that, being a “nobody” is easy to deal with.

Thus mentioning the “ghostly kick in the pants from a member of her found family.” But, yeah...real struggle. A couple of minutes of screen time whose only real purpose was to get Leia’s old saber to Rey. From a storytelling standpoint, this could have been just as easily accomplished by Maz pulling another, “Story for another time” artifact out of her collection following Leia’s death.

29 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

As for her parents being “heroic for abandoning her”, classical mythology, as well as the Bible, are filled with stories of parents sending their children away, essentially abandoning them, for that child’s own protection. A great example from the Old Testament being Moses. His mother placed him in a basket of reeds and sent him down the Nile in order to save him from being killed by Pharaoh. So, yes, that act was heroic. It was also very mythic.

I don’t recall saying it isn’t an existing storytelling trope. I’d be much obliged if you’d point out where I did.

No, what I did say was that, in the context of Rey’s story, her abandonment has shaped her entire life...a life spent waiting for the return of people who she knew deep down were never coming back for her, a life spent longing for people that she knew sold her to Unkar Plutt.

But, with the wave of a hand, all of that sadness, misery, and longing is wiped away; selling a child to a grifter who keeps people hungry for his livelihood is A-OK. There’s no coming to terms with what they did, not even the suggestion that she was being left with someone who’d treat her with kindness...just, “They sold you to hide you from Papaw Sheev.” “Oh. Okay. How brave of them.” (I won’t even mention that it seems odd that she watched them fly away in Ochi’s ship while being dragged away by Plutt. While flying away from a crying little girl of the right age on Jakku, Ochi takes her mother’s, “She’s not on Jakku anymore,” as a given?

The whole Palpatine connection feels tacked on to me, as much to placate the toxic fandals as you think “Rey from nowhere” was a finger to fan theories.

30 minutes ago, Nytwyng said:

Meanwhile, you routinely use your “emphasis” in a condescending manner such that it comes across as scolding if not outright screaming, regardless of “standing grammatical standard.” I’m not the first to say so on these boards, and I doubt I’ll be the last as long as your compulsion to randomly “emphasize” continues.

Now that that’s out of the way, let’s look at the rest of your continued attempt to convince me to change my mind about an element of a movie that I didn’t like (complete with its own truly ironic insert).

Absolutely she struggles with being left on Jakku, and desperately wants there to be something more significant to her life. But there doesn’t have to be some grand destiny, some Super Duper Special Bloodline that she’s part of. Instead, she steps up and makes her own place in the story. I find that far more compelling than being hidden away from Papaw Sheev and being drawn into events because Super Duper Special Bloodline Destiny. (And what, exactly, is that Super Duper Special Bloodline Destiny? Through Snoke, he says to bring her to him to find Luke. Then to bring her to him to kill her. Then just kill her. But then...wait, he never wanted her dead, he wanted to use her as a vessel. Then he wants to kill her again.)

Rey doesn’t have to be a Palpatine for there to be dramatic stakes to her choosing to personally stand up to Palpatine in defense of her found family. It’s enough for her to be the current culmination of the Jedi, and avatar of the light, 1000 generations of Jedi leading to and living through her. Having just learned she’s a Palpatine (figuratively speaking) 30 seconds earlier, she’s not abandoning anything or giving anything up, she’s not losing anything, because she never “was” a Palpatine (if you follow my meaning). She’s lived all her life with that Super Duper Special Bloodline impacting her at all. (In contrast to Luke who first learns the half-truth that his father was a Jedi who was killed by the faceless evil Vader, puts his idea of his father on a pedestal, then gets it knocked off that pedestal when that same faceless evil reveals the full truth. Luke actually has something to grapple with. Rey doesn’t. “Papaw’s the Emperor? Screw that!”) For Rey’s story to be the one of “overcoming a dark legacy,” then that “dark legacy” has to be put in play earlier than the beginning of the third act of the final installment in a trilogy. This is basic Chekhov’s Gun stuff...except that nobody even mentioned the gun in acts 1 or 2; instead, with 10 minutes left to go in the play, someone pulled the gun out of a drawer and said, “Oh, this? It’s been here the whole time. <bang>”

And now for a heaping helping of irony...

So, obviously, I disagree. I think it fit with the first installment in the sequel trilogy seamlessly. And, I mentioned a post or two back Johnson’s stated reasoning for making Rey a nobody. (I also mentioned Terrio’s stated reasons for making Rey a Palpatine...and if Terrio made the decision, that means it was a decision made for this final installment, going out of its way to contradict the previous one, not restoring something that Johnson contradicted.)

Here’s the thing. You say you didn’t like it, and it didn’t work for you. You’ve given your reasons why, I’ve given my reasons for why it did work for me...and that’s it. I’m not spending post after post browbeating you and telling you all the ways you “don’t understand” the story, or why you’re wrong for not liking that particular element. I’m saying, “OK, you didn’t like it. That’s fair.”

I’m still not sure why you seem so bloody intent on proving me “wrong” or telling me that I “don’t understand” the movie simply because I’ve said I didn’t like a story element.

Which I’m sure you’ll continue to do. Complete with screaming.

But it didn’t fit with the rest of the Saga. That’s the problem with it. If this were an independent trilogy not part of the Skywalker saga, then Rey being “nobody” would have been fine. However, it falls apart when you make it a part of the Skywalker saga.

As for her dark legacy being hinted at earlier? It was. In fact one of the biggest hints was in The last Jedi when Luke commented at how Rey went right to the Dark without any hesitation. That was a very powerful hint at the Darkness within her and her Dark legacy.

As for her struggling with being left on Jakku, it had nothing to do with her wanting there to be something more significant to her life. Just the opposite. All she wanted was her parents to return for her. She had numerous opportunities before the events of the movie to leave Jakku but never took them because she was waiting for her family to come back. That’s all she wanted out of life. This was a huge part of her struggle in TFA too: her wanting to return to Jakku in order to wait for her family.

There was no greater purpose or desire for doing something more significant with her life. She just wanted her family back, to know where she came from, and why she was left on Jakku.

A greater purpose was thrust upon her. It wasn’t something she sought out nor desired.

I’m not trying to convince you to like the choice to make Rey Palpatine’s descendant. What I am saying is that your reasoning behind it is not why it was important for her to be one.

It’s not about her being from a “super special” bloodline that makes her more powerful. It’s about her having to face the fact that her legacy is one of absolute evil and having the courage to move beyond that.

3 minutes ago, Nytwyng said:

You’re free to disagree. With the setup Abrams gave Rey, I tend to agree that finding out that she’s just another discarded person is tougher for her to deal with. Considering that neither she nor anyone else knew of her connection to Palpatine, discovering that said tyrant who died some 11 or more years before she was born, and whose name had never been associated to her would certainly be a shock, but had never remotely shaped who she was in the same way that her abandonment had.

While we’re at it, Luke tells her that both he and Leia always knew who she was. Luke...who took Obi-Wan to task for his “Certain Point of View” (TM)...didn’t tell her when she showed up. Didn’t tell her when he sensed power in her, when she “went straight to the dark,” nor when listing the faults of the Jedi...and specifically mentioning Palpatine/Sidious.

So now Johnson is psychic, too, considering Bob Iger commented on the TFA red carpet that he’d read and loved the Episode VIII script. It’s impossible to write a script that thumbs its nose at fan theories that didn’t exist yet, although it is, indeed, possible to acknowledge their existence (as with said picture) once they’re out there.

Thus mentioning the “ghostly kick in the pants from a member of her found family.” But, yeah...real struggle. A couple of minutes of screen time whose only real purpose was to get Leia’s old saber to Rey. From a storytelling standpoint, this could have been just as easily accomplished by Maz pulling another, “Story for another time” artifact out of her collection following Leia’s death.

I don’t recall saying it isn’t an existing storytelling trope. I’d be much obliged if you’d point out where I did.

No, what I did say was that, in the context of Rey’s story, her abandonment has shaped her entire life...a life spent waiting for the return of people who she knew deep down were never coming back for her, a life spent longing for people that she knew sold her to Unkar Plutt.

But, with the wave of a hand, all of that sadness, misery, and longing is wiped away; selling a child to a grifter who keeps people hungry for his livelihood is A-OK. There’s no coming to terms with what they did, not even the suggestion that she was being left with someone who’d treat her with kindness...just, “They sold you to hide you from Papaw Sheev.” “Oh. Okay. How brave of them.” (I won’t even mention that it seems odd that she watched them fly away in Ochi’s ship while being dragged away by Plutt. While flying away from a crying little girl of the right age on Jakku, Ochi takes her mother’s, “She’s not on Jakku anymore,” as a given?

The whole Palpatine connection feels tacked on to me, as much to placate the toxic fandals as you think “Rey from nowhere” was a finger to fan theories.

No, neither Luke nor Leia told her, and with good reason, especially at the time in question. This means that they both understood the wisdom Ben and Yoda exercised in not revealing the full truth about Vader too soon as well. However, unlike Ben, they didn’t lie to her about her ancestry, they simply withheld their knowledge about it from her and let her discover it on her own when the time was right.

As for you ever saying that being abandoned potentially being heroic not being a common trope? I never claimed you did say that. However, you did insinuate that “abandoning” a child is never a heroic act, and that having that element put into Rey’s story is somehow inherently wrong. The very fact that this is a common element in classical mythology and one of the most important stories in the Bible, contradicts that view. That is what I’m pointing out.

It’s not bad story telling to say that yes, her parents left her on Jakku in order to protect her. Nor is it inherently wrong for the story to establish that she was “abandoned” in order to protect her, nor is it inherently wrong for such an act to be considered “heroic” under certain circumstance. That is what I’m pointing out.

And, technically, they didn’t abandon her. They left her with a caretaker: Uncar Plutt. Was he necessarily a good choice? Not really. However, he may have been the only choice.

As for her suddenly being “A-OK” with what her family did so quickly? That she didn’t have to struggle to come to terms with that? What’s harder to come to terms with: believing that you were sold for drinking money or that your parents did it to protect you?

If anything, I’d be relieved to learn the latter, particularly after hearing the former, as Rey did in TLJ. So, I have no problem with how well she dealt with the real truth about why she was left on Jakku. The thing she had the hard time dealing with, and the harshest truth anyone could have to face, is being the descendant of the most evil person in the galaxy. How does any good person handle that?

39 minutes ago, Nytwyng said:

So now Johnson is psychic, too, considering Bob Iger commented on the TFA red carpet that he’d read and loved the Episode VIII script. It’s impossible to write a script that thumbs its nose at fan theories that didn’t exist yet, although it is, indeed, possible to acknowledge their existence (as with said picture) once they’re out there.

There is no way Bob Iger was commenting on the final script on the TFA red carpet. Johnson rewrote the Episode VIII in its entirety after TFA was released then put it through a series of "treatments" beyond that. This was stated openly by more than one source, including Johnson himself. He's also on record saying he ignored and/or inverted several threads Abram's had laid down there becomes it didn't fit his desired themes and artistic vision for the film. In other words, he didn't care that he was making the middle film in the concluding trilogy of one of the biggest and most venerable franchises in history because he's an artiste and wanted to show us how original and visionary he is. Johnson is the I nobody can find in team. I don't blame Johnson for that. The real blame lies squarely at Disney's feet. They needed to have a top level shot caller riding herd on the trilogy to ensure the three films had a coherent narrative through-line and consistent thematic super-structure. For me, Johnson made a movie with a few stellar highs and more horrid lows, but its real flaw is that it doesn't flow well with the other two movies. That's not his fault. Kennedy and co should have checked his ego for him.

2 minutes ago, Vondy said:

There is no way Bob Iger was commenting on the final script on the TFA red carpet. Johnson rewrote the Episode VIII in its entirety after TFA was released then put it through a series of "treatments" beyond that. This was stated openly by more than one source, including Johnson himself. He's also on record saying he ignored and/or inverted several threads Abram's had laid down there becomes it didn't fit his desired themes and artistic vision for the film. In other words, he didn't care that he was making the middle film in the concluding trilogy of one of the biggest and most venerable franchises in history because he's an artiste and wanted to show us how original and visionary he is. Johnson is the I nobody can find in team. One could blame Johnson for that, but the real blame lies squarely at Disney's feet. They needed to have a top level shot caller riding herd on the trilogy to ensure the three films had a coherent narrative and consistently handled set of themes. For me, Johnson made a movie with a few stellar highs and more horrid lows, but its real flaw is that it doesn't flow well with the other two movies. That's not his fault. Kennedy and co should have checked his ego for him.

You hit the nail right on the head. While I loved TLJ, Johnson’s choice to make Rey a complete nobody was a poor one; one he made simply to subvert fans’ expectations without any concern as to how it would affect the greater Saga.

16 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

But it didn’t fit with the rest of the Saga. That’s the problem with it. If this were an independent trilogy not part of the Skywalker saga, then Rey being “nobody” would have been fine. However, it falls apart when you make it a part of the Skywalker saga.

If the final third is about the Skywalkers' impact on the galaxy at large, in particular the next generation, then yes...it does "fit the rest of the Saga."

18 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

As for her dark legacy being hinted at earlier? It was. In fact one of the biggest hints was in The last Jedi when Luke commented at how Rey went right to the Dark without any hesitation. That was a very powerful hint at the Darkness within her and her Dark legacy.

...which doesn't require a "Dark legacy" or Palpatine bloodline.

19 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

As for her struggling with being left on Jakku, it had nothing to do with her wanting there to be something more significant to her life. Just the opposite. All she wanted was her parents to return for her. She had numerous opportunities before the events of the movie to leave Jakku but never took them because she was waiting for her family to come back. That’s all she wanted out of life. This was a huge part of her struggle in TFA too: her wanting to return to Jakku in order to wait for her family.

There was no greater purpose or desire for doing something more significant with her life. She just wanted her family back, to know where she came from, and why she was left on Jakku.

A greater purpose was thrust upon her. It wasn’t something she sought out nor desired.

And yet she ultimately, willingly undertook that purpose.

And doing so didn't require a Super Duper Special Bloodline.

20 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

I’m not trying to convince you to like the choice to make Rey Palpatine’s descendant. What I am saying is that your reasoning behind it is not why it was important for her to be one.

Yet here you are in yet another post telling me how "wrong" I am and how I "don't understand" it. It was not important "to the Saga" (as someone keeps shouting at me in bold text) for Rey to be a Palpatine. It's a choice that Abrams and Terrio made, though. It's one I didn't care for, one that I find unnecessary to the greater narrative (that same someone keeps screaming in bold about the "importance of the Skywalker legacy to the Saga," but Rey being a Palpatine has absolutely nothing to do with that, making it unnecessary for that purpose).

25 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

It’s not about her being from a “super special” bloodline that makes her more powerful. It’s about her having to face the fact that her legacy is one of absolute evil and having the courage to move beyond that.

But then, I never said anything about her Super Duper Special Bloodline in relation to her power level. The part that you're screaming here hasn't remotely been part of this trilogy until the beginning of act 3 of this final movie in the trilogy. Prior to that reveal, Rey's story has been about having the courage to stand up to evil despite being "just...people." And that abrupt shift in her story probably wouldn't be so glaring if the movie didn't simultaneously make such a big deal out of the uprising of "just...people" and the First Order's surprise at those people standing up to the darkness. Then, of course, after the audience-rousing response to the people of the galaxy joining together to dispel that darkness...they're rendered helpless, and only Rey can defeat Papaw Sheev because of her Super Duper Special Bloodline.

31 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

No, neither Luke nor Leia told her, and with good reason, especially at the time in question. This means that they both understood the wisdom Ben and Yoda exercised in not revealing the full truth about Vader too soon as well. However, unlike Ben, they didn’t lie to her about her ancestry, they simply withheld their knowledge about it from her and let her discover it on her own when the time was right.

And apparently, the time was right immediately before she had to face him alone, rather than when he made his return known to the galaxy. (Palpatine sends his message via Fortnite event.) Leia: "Rey, we should talk. There's something you should know...."

35 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

As for you ever saying that being abandoned potentially being heroic not being a common trope? I never claimed you did say that. However, you did insinuate that “abandoning” a child is never a heroic act, and that having that element put into Rey’s story is somehow inherently wrong. The very fact that this is a common element in classical mythology and one of the most important stories in the Bible, contradicts that view. That is what I’m pointing out.

Then you were (and still are) shouting up the wrong tree, because what I said was that the way the reveal was handled instantly absolved them to Rey, with no work done. All hand-wave. Of course, I explained that, and here you are, still scolding me for "not understanding."

38 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

It’s not bad story telling to say that yes, her parents left her on Jakku in order to protect her. Nor is it inherently wrong for the story to establish that she was “abandoned” in order to protect her, nor is it inherently wrong for such an act to be considered “heroic” under certain circumstance. That is what I’m pointing out.

You're also continuing to argue against points that I didn't make.

39 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

And, technically, they didn’t abandon her. They left her with a caretaker: Uncar Plutt. Was he necessarily a good choice? Not really. However, he may have been the only choice.

From the movie's own text, Luke knew. Leia knew. A Jedi Master who redeemed Darth Vader and was instrumental in Palpatine's death. A leader in the New Republic, a former leader of the Rebellion, and princess of Alderaan who'd had about a year of Jedi training herself. Plutt was far from the only choice, and either of them would be better equipped to fend off hunters like Ochi while keeping her on the path of the light, rather than leaving her to linger to her own devices and risk going down a dark path of her own volition.

47 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

As for her suddenly being “A-OK” with what her family did so quickly? That she didn’t have to struggle to come to terms with that? What’s harder to come to terms with: believing that you were sold for drinking money or that your parents did it to protect you?

I'm not making an argument of degrees...I'm saying that the instant forgiveness rang false, period.

49 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

If anything, I’d be relieved to learn the latter, particularly after hearing the former, as Rey did in TLJ. So, I have no problem with how well she dealt with the real truth about why she was left on Jakku. The thing she had the hard time dealing with, and the harshest truth anyone could have to face, is being the descendant of the most evil person in the galaxy. How does any good person handle that?

Already discussed this last post. But, as with the rest, you won't let it go.

I'm asking you straight up again, Tramp: Why are you so invested in getting me to change my opinion on this story point that you're spending post after post "emphasizing" the very things that I dislike about the decision, as if repetition and "emphasis" will make me suddenly say, "Oh my gosh! I was so totally wrong! I love this decision! It's the best thing ever!"? And why does it seem to matter so much to you that I didn't care for it, regardless of what my reasons are? I've not said it's a dealbreaker for me where the movie's concerned. I've not taken the path of the fandals of the past two years and berated anyone who does like the decision. I've said it didn't work for me, said why it didn't work for me. And, if anything, our discourse here has made me like it even less, as it's prompted me to look at all of the implications of the reveal going back through all three entries in this trilogy. And it's like the kid's book If You Give a Mouse a Cookie that my son loved when he was little. If you make Rey a Palpatine and work both forwards and backwards from that reveal, the reveal makes less and less narrative sense to me (and seems to work at cross-purposes with the concurrent uprising of ordinary people).

It's unnecessary, but it's what they decided to do. Didn't stop me from overall enjoying the movie, even if it's probably my least favorite of the trilogy.

But, d@mn, man...how many more times are you going to say the same things over and over (with "emphasis") trying to convince me I'm "wrong" to not care for the reveal?

1 hour ago, Vondy said:

here is no way Bob Iger was commenting on the final script on the TFA red carpet. Johnson rewrote the Episode VIII in its entirety after TFA was released then put it through a series of "treatments" beyond that. This was stated openly by more than one source, including Johnson himself. He's also on record saying he ignored and/or inverted several threads Abram's had laid down there becomes it didn't fit his desired themes and artistic vision for the film.

Fair enough.

1 hour ago, Vondy said:

The real blame lies squarely at Disney's feet. They needed to have a top level shot caller riding herd on the trilogy to ensure the three films had a coherent narrative through-line and consistent thematic super-structure.

Ostensibly, avoiding such contradictions are one of the jobs of the Story Group. However, it's been made clear that creators aren't beholden to make use of the Story Group; doing so is voluntary, and they're more an available - but not required - resource, although most creators do make use of them. From all I've heard (and, of course, we can all take this sort of hearsay for what it's worth), Johnson made use of the Story Group for TLJ, while Abrams (and Terrio) did not for TRoS.

1 hour ago, Vondy said:

For me, Johnson made a movie with a few stellar highs and more horrid lows, but its real flaw is that it doesn't flow well with the other two movies. That's not his fault. Kennedy and co should have checked his ego for him.

I think it flows well enough with TFA, but totally agree that it doesn't flow with TRoS. (For that matter, I don't even think TRoS flows all that well with TFA.) Despite Abrams' lip service to loving what TLJ did, a lot of TRoS - good and bad - has that same sense of ego (to me) that you see in Johnson on TLJ and seems directly aimed at revising or just plain ignoring not only choices made in TLJ but in other areas of the franchise. (For example, it appears that TRoS erases Poe's history as a New Republic pilot by having him leave the spice runners to join the Resistance.) Even at that, the only decision that seems driven by that ego that falls flat for me is Rey's Palpatine lineage.

Eh...mileage varies, right?

7 hours ago, Nytwyng said:

I’m still not sure why you seem so bloody intent on proving me “wrong” or telling me that I “don’t understand” the movie simply because I’ve said I didn’t like a story element.

Because being right is equal to being good and being wrong is not good, possibly even evil. Although to be fair I'm just guessing based on past posts and stuff.

10 hours ago, Eoen said:

You guys are making me want to see the movie a second time!

Do it! 😈

So, could someone explain why Rey took the Skywalker name?

55 minutes ago, Jegergryte said:

So, could someone explain why Rey took the Skywalker name?

She has Ben’s life force in her.

34 minutes ago, DanteRotterdam said:

She has Ben’s life force in her.

Too simple, quick, and to the point, to possibly be right...

Here I was hoping for something more elaborate. Ah well.

13 hours ago, LordBritish said:

I honestly want to see a Rian Johnson Trilogy and a J.J Albrams trilogy. Because I had the distinct feelings that both trilogies had very different feelings and goals that they aimed to achieve.

I definitely agree on the Rian Johnson trilogy. The guy makes some great films (Knives Out being just a recent example), and I think if he had a whole trilogy to work with instead of picking up the reins of a story that had no idea what its endgame was, it'd be some pretty stellar stuff.

I'm lukewarm on the idea of a JJ Abrams trilogy. I kinda see his films in about the same lens that I view Michael Bay movies; there's a lot of flash and noise, but not a whole lot of substance once the show's over. Abrams is also far better at setting up questions than answering those questions, as both Lost (the conclusion of which left a number of viewers either scratching their heads or largely dissatisfied) and now TRoS shows (though half the problem with TRoS I feel is that he tried to cram his own version of Episode 8 into the film).

Then again, I think we could have a trilogy with different directors that worked, provided there's a producer with a definitive vision and a basic story roadmap, much as how the Original Trilogy worked out (even if George did become more of a control freak during ESB and RotJ's filming, given the debacle that was the Holiday Special).

12 hours ago, Nytwyng said:

One thing that I did appreciate about the handling of the Rey Palpatine reveal:

Upon learning the news, her first instinct is...to do exactly what Luke did when faced with overwhelming despair: follow her mentor's example and send herself into exile.

I can't help but wonder if Luke (prior to his exile) ever called out Ben or Yoda for pretty much hiding away from the rest of the galaxy while they waited for him to come to them "when the time was right" to be trained as a Jedi. Only to (some time later while in the midst of his own despair) say "oh, now I get it!" only to turn around later and admit, "yeah, wrong thing to do."

1 hour ago, Jegergryte said:

Too simple, quick, and to the point, to possibly be right...

Here I was hoping for something more elaborate. Ah well.

Even simpler: they’re her found family, a story concept that’s seeing a lot of use these days.

2 hours ago, Jegergryte said:

So, could someone explain why Rey took the Skywalker name?

I saw that as her choice to honor the legacy of her two deceased mentors, both of whom were Skywalkers by blood, as well as acknowledge her connection to Ben Solo and his sacrifice, but perhaps most importantly as a big middle finger to the "legacy" of Palpatine.

I've heard from a wide number of folks that chose to rename themselves after having serious fallouts with their birth family for a variety of reasons that Rey choosing to call herself a Skywalker and rejecting her grandfather's name struck a very powerful chord with them.

10 hours ago, Nytwyng said:

And apparently, the time was right immediately before she had to face him alone, rather than when he made his return known to the galaxy. (Palpatine sends his message via Fortnite event.) Leia: "Rey, we should talk. There's something you should know...."

Rereading the exchange from last night, something struck me about this particular thought of mine: part of the fabled "Skywalker Legacy" is allowing poor communication, lies, and lies of omission to frak the galaxy over.

Meanwhile, the sort of scene I propose before was used simply, succinctly, and effectively in the final episode of HBO's Watchmen.

(Spoilers for Watchmen, episode 9)

It works...it disarms a potential weapon that could be used against a character by having someone trusted reveal the truth before that truth can be weaponized.

3 hours ago, Jegergryte said:

So, could someone explain why Rey took the Skywalker name?

As a mirror of Kylo throwing his away. When she had nobody and no meaning in her life the Skywalkers took her in, gave her a purpose beyond herself, and taught her everything they knew. They became her adopted family. Meanwhile, Ben Skywalker had an impossible legacy to live up to, struggled with the lure of the Dark Side, and eventually felt that his family had betrayed him. So he turned his back on the Skywalkers, and renamed himself Kylo Ren.

(I would like to have seen Ben's fall outlined a bit more in flashbacks. We know he struggled with the Dark Side during his Jedi training and Snoke attempted to influence him, it'd have been interesting to see more of why he decided to pursue the legacy of Vader and not Luke & Leia; presumably he was so blinded by a lifetime of obsession with legacy he couldn't envisage defining himself independently until the end of TLJ)

1 minute ago, Talkie Toaster said:

(I would like to have seen Ben's fall outlined a bit more in flashbacks. We know he struggled with the Dark Side during his Jedi training and Snoke attempted to influence him, it'd have been interesting to see more of why he decided to pursue the legacy of Vader and not Luke & Leia; presumably he was so blinded by a lifetime of obsession with legacy he couldn't envisage defining himself independently until the end of TLJ)

For better or for worse, that's where this being a multimedia franchise comes in. The same week that TRoS opened, the first issue of Marvel's The Rise of Kylo Ren mini-series hit shelves. The movies give us all we need to know for their stories (or at least try to), while deeper dives like that are handled in the ancillary media. (Assuming, of course, that the ancillary media can maintain its own consistency. For example, the Resistance Reborn novel features a team led by Wedge stealing a CR-90 directly from Corellian Engineering Corp, presumably the CR-90 that the Resistance has in the movie. Meanwhile, the Visual Dictionary tells us that the CR-90 is the Tantive IV, having been returned to Leia by a former Imperial as a sign of respect. /shrug)