1 minute ago, Tramp Graphics said:

It’s because you’re completely missing the point of the entire saga. The whole saga is one of legacy and how the hero deals with that legacy.

In the Prequels, Anakin had to deal with the legacy of being the “Chosen One” of Prophecy, and failed. In the OT, Luke had to deal with the legacy of being the son of Vader, and it was because of that connection, not the strength in the Force brought on by that bloodline, that he had to face Vader. He had to confront his own father with the possibility that he might have to kill him. Instead he was able to draw on that family connection to save Vader and redeem him from the Dark Side. In the Sequels, Rey has to face Palpatine, not simply because he was a tyrant, but because he was family, and as such his evil and his legacy of evil and tyranny is a part of her. It is her strength of will to turn away from and reject that legacy that gives her confrontation with Palpatine weight and makes it mythic.

I'm not missing anything, thanks.

With the first two installments of the sequel trilogy, the idea of legacy was already being used, by exploring how the legacies of the past affected a new generation. The legacy affected Ben by pushing him away from his family, and leading him to feel there was no choice but to embrace the other half of his legacy: that of his grandfather, and follow in Vader's footsteps. That was explored further in TLJ, when we saw Luke influenced by his past experience in several ways and how those choices he made along the way impacted the future in both Ben and Rey. In both movies, we see Rey's awe at the legend of Luke Skywalker, her disappointment in the then-current reality (you know what they say about never meeting your heroes), and making the decision to forge ahead anyway. Luke comes around, restoring and preserving the legacy of hope that his legend represented, which we see when the children of Canto Bight tell stories of Luke Skywalker, Jedi Master. The legacy this time around was set up as being one of inspiring others...of everyday people choosing to do the right thing - Finn leaving the First Order, and ultimately choosing to join the Resistance; Rey choosing to be the Jedi she sought in Luke and seeing the best in Ben after Luke saw the worst; the Resistance choosing to fight on, despite impossibly overwhelming odds.

But then, in the final installment...no, forget all of that. Here's a new/old Big Bad out of left field, and Only You can defeat him because you're personally connected to him...you're The Special. Blah blah symbolism. We're supposed to be invested in this alleged "weight and mythic nature" of a curve tossed in at the last minute. It's a last minute switch in premise to the "legacy" idea of this particular trilogy.

I await the next dissertation on what I "missed" or how I'm "wrong" to not care for this particular development of Rey's character.

12 minutes ago, Eoen said:

@Nytwyng 😂 Lol; all that time watching Star Wars wasted.

Ha!

I know, right? I'm thinking of sending Tramp a listing of my movie library so I can get a randomly bolded schooling on what else I've been watching wrong. 🤣

the rate of force sensitive children and grand children seems to be pretty high. If a anakin would have been a playboy we could have restored the jedi order instantly.

Are there any other Canon force families or is this the exception the force made because.. Nothing else was in TV

28 minutes ago, Nytwyng said:

I'm not missing anything, thanks.

With the first two installments of the sequel trilogy, the idea of legacy was already being used, by exploring how the legacies of the past affected a new generation. The legacy affected Ben by pushing him away from his family, and leading him to feel there was no choice but to embrace the other half of his legacy: that of his grandfather, and follow in Vader's footsteps. That was explored further in TLJ, when we saw Luke influenced by his past experience in several ways and how those choices he made along the way impacted the future in both Ben and Rey. In both movies, we see Rey's awe at the legend of Luke Skywalker, her disappointment in the then-current reality (you know what they say about never meeting your heroes), and making the decision to forge ahead anyway. Luke comes around, restoring and preserving the legacy of hope that his legend represented, which we see when the children of Canto Bight tell stories of Luke Skywalker, Jedi Master. The legacy this time around was set up as being one of inspiring others...of everyday people choosing to do the right thing - Finn leaving the First Order, and ultimately choosing to join the Resistance; Rey choosing to be the Jedi she sought in Luke and seeing the best in Ben after Luke saw the worst; the Resistance choosing to fight on, despite impossibly overwhelming odds.

But then, in the final installment...no, forget all of that. Here's a new/old Big Bad out of left field, and Only You can defeat him because you're personally connected to him...you're The Special. Blah blah symbolism. We're supposed to be invested in this alleged "weight and mythic nature" of a curve tossed in at the last minute. It's a last minute switch in premise to the "legacy" idea of this particular trilogy.

I await the next dissertation on what I "missed" or how I'm "wrong" to not care for this particular development of Rey's character.

I completely get that. As much as I enjoyed the movie; it's because I honestly didn't care a great deal about what happened to the main character's because each movie seemed to have a rough cut off point where nothing we seen about them really matters, with two exceptions. This is where one director's vision ends, here's another opinion. AND back to the force awakens canon. Oh, and here's the Emperor. Call him daddy please.

I didn't really have any impression that there was world building between movies. No time had passed between 7/8. Thing is, I enjoyed the movies for most part, but when they are put together they are an awful trilogy. The PT by no means were masterful, but at least they told a story. The lessons I've learnt from these movies have been less memorable. I liked that the OT movies hinted and teased towards the ultimate villain, yet he turned up in less then a couple of minutes in the opening to this movie. It was pretty jarring to say the least.

I honestly want to see a Rian Johnson Trilogy and a J.J Albrams trilogy. Because I had the distinct feelings that both trilogies had very different feelings and goals that they aimed to achieve. Together, they feel worse off.

Found on the internet:

The Force Awakens was about reigniting nostalgia and inviting new fans to old myths.

The Last Jedi was about how nostalgia is a trap, but if you let it go you can build new myths from its memories.

The Rise Of Skywalker was about two and a half hours long.

5 minutes ago, LordBritish said:

I completely get that. As much as I enjoyed the movie; it's because I honestly didn't care a great deal about what happened to

Happened to...

It's interesting in a way that The Mandalorian sort of shows us how... little the Skywalker bloodline and the general stuff surrounding the Saga in terms of the Force and all that really is known to the rest of the galaxy. Like, obviously, the Empire and Rebellion and First Order and Resistance is important, but in terms of the Jedi and Sith and the Skywalker-Palpatine stuff, it's not all that important or know to folks at-large.

I think that's good, because there's so much room for storytelling beyond it.

1 minute ago, Eoen said:

Happened to...

I had hit enter by accident. My full post is up now. XD

20 minutes ago, StarkJunior said:

It's interesting in a way that The Mandalorian sort of shows us how... little the Skywalker bloodline and the general stuff surrounding the Saga in terms of the Force and all that really is known to the rest of the galaxy. Like, obviously, the Empire and Rebellion and First Order and Resistance is important, but in terms of the Jedi and Sith and the Skywalker-Palpatine stuff, it's not all that important or know to folks at-large.

I think that's good, because there's so much room for storytelling beyond it.

I couldn't agree more. The Mandolorian is a really nice blend of good, classic story telling, slow burn plot and just old fashioned development. I've honestly got nothing but positives words for it and stories like Solo. I disliked Rogue 1, so I guess I'm more of a firefly guy. XD

A well-planned out series of films that lean heavily into the space western vibe with one writer/director would probably be a good move for Lucasfilm going forward. I think it's alright to let some of the Force-centric stuff rest on ice for awhile, at least in the film arena.

33 minutes ago, Nytwyng said:

I'm not missing anything, thanks.

With the first two installments of the sequel trilogy, the idea of legacy was already being used, by exploring how the legacies of the past affected a new generation. The legacy affected Ben by pushing him away from his family, and leading him to feel there was no choice but to embrace the other half of his legacy: that of his grandfather, and follow in Vader's footsteps. That was explored further in TLJ, when we saw Luke influenced by his past experience in several ways and how those choices he made along the way impacted the future in both Ben and Rey. In both movies, we see Rey's awe at the legend of Luke Skywalker, her disappointment in the then-current reality (you know what they say about never meeting your heroes), and making the decision to forge ahead anyway. Luke comes around, restoring and preserving the legacy of hope that his legend represented, which we see when the children of Canto Bight tell stories of Luke Skywalker, Jedi Master. The legacy this time around was set up as being one of inspiring others...of everyday people choosing to do the right thing - Finn leaving the First Order, and ultimately choosing to join the Resistance; Rey choosing to be the Jedi she sought in Luke and seeing the best in Ben after Luke saw the worst; the Resistance choosing to fight on, despite impossibly overwhelming odds.

But then, in the final installment...no, forget all of that. Here's a new/old Big Bad out of left field, and Only You can defeat him because you're personally connected to him...you're The Special. Blah blah symbolism. We're supposed to be invested in this alleged "weight and mythic nature" of a curve tossed in at the last minute. It's a last minute switch in premise to the "legacy" idea of this particular trilogy.

I await the next dissertation on what I "missed" or how I'm "wrong" to not care for this particular development of Rey's character.

That may have been Ryan Johnson’s intent, but that was never JJ Abrams’, nor the theme of the saga as a whole. Had Rey truly been a nobody from nowhere, the story would have just been a simple good vs evil confrontation. However, there wouldn’t have been a personal stake in it for Rey. Where would her internal struggle come from? What would Palpatine use as a means to tempt her? Without that family connection there is no real temptation no dark legacy to overcome. It’s just defeat the BBEG.

Having the main hero being a “nobody” would work for a different story within the SW universe. It does not work for a story that is explicitly about family legacies and how the characters deal with said legacies. The Skywalker Saga films are specifically about family, the legacy that family imposes upon a person, and how that individual deals with the consequences of that. That falls apart if Rey is not Palpatine’s descendant.

One thing that I did appreciate about the handling of the Rey Palpatine reveal:

Upon learning the news, her first instinct is...to do exactly what Luke did when faced with overwhelming despair: follow her mentor's example and send herself into exile.

You guys are making me want to see the movie a second time!

13 minutes ago, Nytwyng said:

One thing that I did appreciate about the handling of the Rey Palpatine reveal:

Upon learning the news, her first instinct is...to do exactly what Luke did when faced with overwhelming despair: follow her mentor's example and send herself into exile.

Yep, and do you really think she’d have had taken that action or had that kind emotional struggle if she hadn’t been?

That’s why her being Palpatine’s descendant was important, not the “Force bloodline making her a special snowflake”. Nor is it that “only someone of a special bloodline” can save the universe. It’s the emotional stakes placed upon her by the fact that she has the blood of the Devil running through her veins, and his legacy of tyranny as her “birthright”.

Does she have the courage and conviction to reject that? Can she overcome that legacy of darkness she’s inherited and become a ray of light in spite of her ancestry? That is what’s at the heart of the story, and the story would completely fall apart if she were a true “nobody”.

Just now, Tramp Graphics said:

That may have been Ryan Johnson’s intent, but that was never JJ Abrams’, nor the theme of the saga as a whole. Had Rey truly been a nobody from nowhere, the story would have just been a simple good vs evil confrontation. However, there wouldn’t have been a personal stake in it for Rey. Where would her internal struggle come from? What would Palpatine use as a means to tempt her? Without that family connection there is no real temptation no dark legacy to overcome. It’s just defeat the BBEG.

Having the main hero being a “nobody” would work for a different story within the SW universe. It does not work for a story that is explicitly about family legacies and how the characters deal with said legacies. The Skywalker Saga films are specifically about family, the legacy that family imposes upon a person, and how that individual deals with the consequences of that. That falls apart if Rey is not Palpatine’s descendant.

There's the dissertation, complete with a return of the randomly bolded screaming.

You're making a lot of presumptions here. Abrams' first installment in the trilogy is rife with the idea of forging one's own destiny. Finn does it by deserting the First Order. Several characters openly question why Rey would want to return to Jakku when there's a whole galaxy out there and she's made it off world. Having no immediate personal, bloodline reason to get involved is precisely Rey's stake in the conflict...she's chosen to get involved. These ideas flow nicely from TFA to TLJ. Her internal struggle was right there in both movies, too. She tried to actively refuse the call to adventure, she tried to recruit Luke to be the BDH, but had to step up and take that role herself when Luke refused. And, why does Palpatine need to "tempt" her (considering he didn't really try to tempt her with anything in TRoS, either...he wanted to use her as a vessel...or kill her...or use her...or kill her...depending on which scene you're watching). Even without a blood connection, he could have offered her the same sort of power that he briefly did when she first confronted him. Likewise, he didn't have any trouble draining life force from Ben, who wasn't related to him. So, there's no burning story need for a blood connection between them.

There's also the element to the first two films that's present in a lot of current storytelling: found family, and how the bonds and obligations of found family can be even stronger than blood.

As to your final point, it could also be said that the so-called Skywalker Saga is about the impact that one family had on the galaxy. In the prequel trilogy, a Skywalker plunged the galaxy into darkness. In the original trilogy, Skywalkers expunged that darkness. In the sequel trilogy, the Skywalker family inspired "just...people" to stand up to resurgent darkness and banish it. Except, of course, in the final installment, you can forget that, because it took a Special (who wasn't even part of the family that you deem essential to resolving the story) to get rid of the big bad and save the everyday people overhead who were inspired to fight for the galaxy's freedom.

Nothing falls apart if Rey's not connected to Palpatine.

Awaiting my next scolding.

4 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Yep, and do you really think she’d have had taken that action or had that kind emotional struggle if she hadn’t been?

That’s why her being Palpatine’s descendant was important, not the “Force bloodline making her a special snowflake”. Nor is it that “only someone of a special bloodline” can save the universe. It’s the emotional stakes placed upon her by the fact that she has the blood of the Devil running through her veins, and his legacy of tyranny as her “birthright”.

Does she have the courage and conviction to reject that? Can she overcome that legacy of darkness she’s inherited and become a ray of light in spite of her ancestry? That is what’s at the heart of the story, and the story would completely fall apart if she were a true “nobody”.

No, she wouldn't have done that.

But then, I also wouldn't have missed it. As noted, it was the only part of the specific reveal that I appreciated. I would gladly sacrifice that response to the reveal to not have the reveal in the first place.

14 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Yep, and do you really think she’d have had taken that action or had that kind emotional struggle if she hadn’t been?

That’s why her being Palpatine’s descendant was important, not the “Force bloodline making her a special snowflake”. Nor is it that “only someone of a special bloodline” can save the universe. It’s the emotional stakes placed upon her by the fact that she has the blood of the Devil running through her veins, and his legacy of tyranny as her “birthright”.

Does she have the courage and conviction to reject that? Can she overcome that legacy of darkness she’s inherited and become a ray of light in spite of her ancestry? That is what’s at the heart of the story, and the story would completely fall apart if she were a true “nobody”.

The problem here is that we already had a main character struggling with the devil's blood running through his veins: Vader's grandson. Making Rey a Palpatine adds nothing to that.

7 minutes ago, micheldebruyn said:

The problem here is that we already had a main character struggling with the devil's blood running through his veins: Vader's grandson. Making Rey a Palpatine adds nothing to that.

Come now, we’ve been speculating since TFA that she is a Palpatine. I wasn’t surprised in the slightest. 😎

Just now, Eoen said:

Come now, we’ve been speculating since TFA that she is a Palpatine. I wasn’t surprised in the slightest. 😎

Indeed!

I certainly recall that theory being among the many touted on the internet.

My personal favourite "secret background" theory for Rey was that she was related to Obi-Wan Kenobi.

6 minutes ago, Eoen said:

Come now, we’ve been speculating since TFA that she is a Palpatine. I wasn’t surprised in the slightest. 😎

May not have been surprising, but after the bolder choice presented in the previous installment, it was disappointing.

4 minutes ago, Bellona said:

My personal favourite "secret background" theory for Rey was that she was related to Obi-Wan Kenobi.

I was partial to her being, for lack of a better term, a 'reincarnation' of Anakin Skywalker; but I knew it was unlikely that they'd go that route.

13 minutes ago, Nytwyng said:

May not have been surprising, but after the bolder choice presented in the previous installment, it was disappointing.

Now, I want to know more about her parents and the creepy Sith cult.

I think Ryan Johnson just wanted to subvert our expectations.

24 minutes ago, Bellona said:

I certainly recall that theory being among the many touted on the internet.

My personal favourite "secret background" theory for Rey was that she was related to Obi-Wan Kenobi.

Oh it’s gets even better the Vader comic finale suggests it was Palpatine who manipulated the midichlorians to create Anakin. Which would make Luke a Palpatine! And Palpatine would be Bens great grand dad and Rey would be his cousin.

So that kiss was just another example of the Imperial families incestous ways. And you know all those old rich families on Naboo had to be related...

2 minutes ago, Eoen said:

Oh it’s gets even better the Vader comic finale suggests it was Palpatine who manipulated the midichlorians to create Anakin. Which would make Luke a Palpatine! And Palpatine would be Bens great grand dad.

I read/saw one theory that Sidious' predecessor, Darth Plagueis, was the one who experimented (in the laboratory sense, IIRC) on Shmi Skywalker so as to produce Anakin's "immaculate conception". The reasoning behind this theory was that the Chosen One prophecy was actually a Sith prophecy which had been planted in the Jedi Order with the intent that the Jedi eventually find the Chosen One and train the source of their own destruction.