1 hour ago, Eoen said:

That still sounds like a Fanon thing. A Jedi for edge lords to play. It’s like being interested in having the powers of a Paladin but wanting to be neutral.

Qui-Gon Jinn is some times referred as a Grey Jedi but I would classify him as a light side paragon in game terms.

Oh it absolutely is fanon.

And I agree on Qui-Gon, as the only reason he got the label of a Grey Jedi was because he routinely defied the Jedi Council and didn't go with literal interpretations of the Jedi Code.

GL always said that his movies were aimed at a younger audience.

My 13-yr old daughter was in tears when the credits rolled, owing to the emotional roller coaster of the final 20-30 minutes and knowing that this was the last she would ever see these characters on screen. To me: that makes this movie a success.

(checking my credentials real quick): I may have run scores, maybe > 100, sessions of D&D and SW RPG sessions over the past 30 years (that’s not a typo), but I have never authored a screen play, directed a movie, or wrote a full length novel. So frankly, my hat is off to KK, JJA and all the rest that resurrected an on-screen run of a genre that many of us thought was over... TWICE... since 1983.

A new generation of Star Wars fans has risen. And that is more important than any plot holes, “that’s not how the Force works” arguments, debates over hypothetical physics in a fictional high adventure SCI-FI setting or any other criticism.

And the “consistency of story” argument is over played. Mando had an episode that was a blatant take off of the Seven Samurai. NOT the Magnificient Seven - THAT movie was a Western remake of 7S.... And the latest version of M7 has a slightly different feel than 7S, the original M7, or the latest Mando. And that’s OK... because its a STORY that’s meant for an audience to enjoy. And not every story appeals to every audience - even if its an old story retold.

And since this is an RPG forum: the good news is, we have LOTS of new (and growing) material to make our OWN stories. Don’t like the Disney canon and prefer EU? Go for it, make your OWN story in YOUR game. The “consistency police” will NOT show up at your front door, interrupt your game session, and ret-con YOUR story.

I mean c’mon... Chewie FINALLY got his medal. Can’t we all agree that THAT is a retcon we can agree with? 😎

30 minutes ago, Khyrith said:

GL always said that his movies were aimed at a younger audience.

My 13-yr old daughter was in tears when the credits rolled, owing to the emotional roller coaster of the final 20-30 minutes and knowing that this was the last she would ever see these characters on screen. To me: that makes this movie a success.

Wish I could thumb up this quote twice.

7 hours ago, Eoen said:

That still sounds like a Fanon thing. A Jedi for edge lords to play. It’s like being interested in having the powers of a Paladin but wanting to be neutral.

Qui-Gon Jinn is some times referred as a Grey Jedi but I would classify him as a light side paragon in game terms.

I never understood why people tried to push Qui-Gon into the "Grey Jedi" category. Not once does he try to push any belief that the Dark and the Light are "equal", nor does he use the Force in any morally questionable ways. The closest I can think of is using the Force to force Watto's chance cube into picking Anakin over Shmi - but since it's implied the cube is loaded anyway I doubt that earned him much Conflict, if any.

I assume the folks pushing that idea mistake the concept of a Grey Jedi (which I admit I don't like as an idea anyway) for one that simply isn't as dogmatic as the mainstream Order. Return of the Jedi-era Luke is more akin to a Grey Jedi than Qui-Gon, casually calling upon the Dark Side (choking Gamorreans, lashing out in anger to bring down Vader) to serve the greater good.

Grey Jedi

or how to have my cake and eat it too.

I don’t put any stock in what professional movie critics have to say (which is what everyone should do), but sometimes I check reviews just to see what their complaints are and if they seem warranted.

Their complaints for Rise of Skywalker? That it tries to undo everything the Last Jedi did. Who do they blame for this? JJ Abrams.

NOT whoever signed off on a trilogy that A) wasn’t planned in advance (despite knowing that with the might of Disney funding the efforts it was sure to be three movies) and B) green lighting a change in directors throughout the movies.

Say what you will, but this is a recipe for inconsistency. Is it impossible? No, look at what Feige did with Marvel and different directors. But for a tight trilogy? Just pay the first director enough to stay on for all three movies. Let their vision unfold in its entirety.

Personally I would have like to have seen the Skywalker saga completely done by Abrams AND seen Rian Johnson have his own separate trilogy to open up the universe to bigger ideas not locked up by Lucas’ “dated” ideas.

But oh well, hopefully future projects will be handled better.

13 minutes ago, Flavorabledeez said:

B) green lighting a change in directors throughout the movies.

Say what you will, but this is a recipe for inconsistency. Is it impossible? No, look at what Feige did with Marvel and different directors. But for a tight trilogy? Just pay the first director enough to stay on for all three movies. Let their vision unfold in its entirety.

You are aware that the original trilogy had three different directors, yes?

40 minutes ago, Nytwyng said:

You are aware that the original trilogy had three different directors, yes?

But there was GL closely watching the writing of the scenario for the two movies he wasn't director. That's what made the 1st trilogy more consistent than the 2 following. And at that time he had a clear vision of the story he wanted to be told through these movies.

1 hour ago, Flavorabledeez said:

A) wasn’t planned in advance (despite knowing that with the might of Disney funding the efforts it was sure to be three movies)

Who said the main outlines weren’t planned in advance? I am quite confident that they were, however Carrie Fisher I think dying will have been more of an influence on the story then TLJ was.

32 minutes ago, WolfRider said:

That's what made the 1st trilogy more consistent than the 2 following.

By “1st trilogy,” do you mean the original or the prequels?

7 minutes ago, Nytwyng said:

By “1st trilogy,” do you mean the original or the prequels?

The original. For me it's more logical to number each trilogy in the order they were made. So, the 1st trilogy is the first made, the 2nd is the second made and the 3rd is the last made.

10 minutes ago, WolfRider said:

The original. For me it's more logical to number each trilogy in the order they were made. So, the 1st trilogy is the first made, the 2nd is the second made and the 3rd is the last made.

That's what I figured (and agree), but you know what they say about when you assume... 😉

But I wanted to confirm it because, by the logic you present, the prequels should be the most consistent, all both written and directed by Lucas (with Jonathan Hales co-credited for the Attack of the Clones screenplay), as opposed to the original trilogy which had not only three directors (Lucas, Kershner, and Marquand) but three writers working in various combinations (Lucas; Brackett and Kasdan with story by Lucas; and Kasdan and Lucas).

2 hours ago, WolfRider said:

And at that time he had a clear vision of the story he wanted to be told through these movies.

He might have had a clear vision, but he had a little trouble making up his mind; hence Luke's sister switching from not-Leia to Leia between Episode V and Episode VI.

1 hour ago, Nytwyng said:

That's what I figured (and agree), but you know what they say about when you assume... 😉

But I wanted to confirm it because, by the logic you present, the prequels should be the most consistent, all both written and directed by Lucas (with Jonathan Hales co-credited for the Attack of the Clones screenplay), as opposed to the original trilogy which had not only three directors (Lucas, Kershner, and Marquand) but three writers working in various combinations (Lucas; Brackett and Kasdan with story by Lucas; and Kasdan and Lucas).

You make good points all around with a mixing of creative influences in the original trilogy, but there’s still a coherence of vision. I think this is where Star Wars (or any IP just as large) works best: with one person’s creative vision who is willing to take good ideas when they are presented.

We haven’t had a trilogy like that since the original, and it shows

On 12/21/2019 at 2:46 PM, LithiumBlossom said:

Biggest missteps for her were siding with the Kasdans over Lord and Miller for Solo. That ended up with a blander project. Bringing JJ back was logical but was from his track record

Sorry... Did you see Lord and Miller’s footage???

Thinking back on the film, I also have to say that while I'm not a Rey fan, she has good taste in lightsaber blades. An amber (yellow-orange) color has always been my personal favorite from the days when blades came in every color under the rainbow (and more). However, that hilt (supposedly built from her staff?) is ugly. Not a little ugly either, but really butt-ugly.

I saw it and I honestly enjoyed it.

But there were at least two things I wanted towards the final parts.

1. Ben should've ditched his Kylo Ren tunic and come back dressed up like like his dad. I mean, white shirt, black pants, the jacket, the works.

2. There should have been a **** lightsaber battle between Palpatine against Ben and Rey.

6 minutes ago, Voltron64 said:

There should have been a **** lightsaber battle between Palpatine against Ben and Rey.

Yeah I was kind of hoping for that but the Emporer is around 120 and attached to a life support system. Why would he have his lightsaber on him?

3 hours ago, Eoen said:

Yeah I was kind of hoping for that but the Emporer is around 120 and attached to a life support system. Why would he have his lightsaber on him?

Honestly, after the freaking amazing duel we had between Rey and Kylo/Ben in the second act, a lightsaber duel against Palpatine would have felt superfluous, on top of him spending most of that scene being a barely-alive meatsack attached to a giant life support armature. Heck, it would have been akin to tacking on another lightsaber fight after the Bespin duel in ESB, which is held as one of the best duels based on both physical performance and emotional content.

I also wonder if there was some reticence on the part of Abrams and LFL about having Palpatine break out a lightsaber. I've heard a number of complaints about Palp's fight sequences in RotS being seen as "hokey" withe duel in his office vs. Windu being a notable point of contention; it didn't help that neither of the actors were in their physical prime, on top of only learning the fight choreography pretty much right before filming it.

3 minutes ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

I also wonder if there was some reticence on the part of Abrams and LFL about having Palpatine break out a lightsaber. I've heard a number of complaints about Palp's fight sequences in RotS being seen as "hokey" withe duel in his office vs. Windu being a notable point of contention; it didn't help that neither of the actors were in their physical prime, on top of only learning the fight choreography pretty much right before filming it.

Now the clone wars cartoon era Sidous had some moves. While Ian McDermott is pretty old at this point.

5 hours ago, Voltron64 said:

Ben should've ditched his Kylo Ren tunic and come back dressed up like like his dad. I mean, white shirt, black pants, the jacket, the works.

That would've been fun. I'm pretty sure Adam Driver did some kind of neck-crack before turning on the Knights, too. "Yo, I'll Solo all y'all."

Yeah, my 11 year old daughter was also in tears. Loved it. My 9 year old loved it too. They kept saying "best movie they've ever seen". Not just Star Wars movie, but best movie... I know, they tend towards hyperbole, but if my kids loved it then I can get past the minor problems I had with it and feel great about taking them again in a couple weeks--- next time without 3D. You can hardly find a non-3D movie where we live and it's pretty annoying... they also turned the theatre's lights on right after we saw Wicket! Awful. Couldn't make out anything with Rey's lightsaber or Lars' old place or anything... grrr..

So we'll go see it again for sure. Great fun. And that's the main point.

On ‎12‎/‎21‎/‎2019 at 5:54 PM, DaverWattra said:

Overall I liked it, although I can understand the bad reviews... I think it was pretty mediocre as a movie but quite solid as a Star Wars movie. I think it showcases how important the cast of characters (and actors) is to Star Wars. If Ridley, Driver, Isaac and Boyega hadn't given this thing their all, despite a somewhat flawed script, it could have been painful to watch. As it was, it was a pleasure to see these characters bring their story to its conclusion. Bravo to the whole cast.

The good:

--Daisy Ridley and Adam Driver are two superb actors, and they really showed it here. Their on-screen chemistry is remarkable. Hard to imagine anyone but these two pulling off these roles. Too bad they didn't have an actor like Driver to play Anakin in the prequels.

--On a related note, I'm a big fan of Reylo and I thought they handled that aspect of it perfectly. After Last Jedi, we needed a satisfying resolution to the connection between these two, and we got one. (I'm also glad to see the movie repudiate the Twitter-mob moralists who kept intoning that this would be an "abusive relationship" or whatever. Star Wars is about redemption. If you want judgmental moral absolutism, find a different franchise.)

--Lando was used effectively without taking over the movie.

--Han's cameo was wonderful. Unlike in Force Awakens, Ford turned in a very good performance and looked like he actually wanted to be there.

--They handled the Leia thing about as well as they possibly could have. I really admired this aspect of the movie, it took genuine creativity.

--These writers know how to write a good C3PO joke! We haven't had good C3PO humor like this since the OT.

--Abrams seems to have a better grasp than Johnson on how to evoke the Star Wars atmosphere. Neutral camera perspective, not much slow-mo, Original Trilogy-style sets... this felt more like a real Star Wars movie than TLJ did, although it was not as innovative visually.

--Allegiant General Pryde was a compelling sidekick for Palpatine. A big part of Star Wars is compelling side characters like this.

--I liked where the galaxy, and Rey, ended up at the end of the story.

The bad:

--I loved the idea that Rey was nobody from nowhere. If they were going to depart from that, having her be a Palpatine is about the best choice they could make, but I'm still sad to see that theme dropped.

--The OP Force lightning was distracting. Not just Palpatine's, but Rey's as well.

--The last battle was the movie's big weak point. In both of the two arenas (the space battle and the confrontation with Sheev P) the "rules of the game" were never quite clear. What did the good guys need to accomplish for victory? What were the bad guys capable of? There seemed to be no rules.

--On a related note, why was Rey going to die at the end before Ben healed her?

--The new characters (Zorii Bliss and ex-stormtrooper gal) were boring and served no useful role in the story. Would've preferred more Rose instead.

--Could have used more Luke.

This really more or less summarizes my thoughts. With a couple of thoughts I would want to add; not to you particularly, I just felt it summarised my thoughts pretty nicely without having to type a ton! XD But in particular I want to thank you for this list as it more or less contextualised what I like and didn't like.

I personally really like the actors on Finn, Rey and Ben. They are really good at conveying the emotion of the roles and; I know I'm probably going to get a lot of flack for this, are very well written character's with relatable conflicts and subtext. Rey was a character who desperately wanted to learn *anything* about herself, then was terrified of what she did find out about herself which turned her to a near frenzy because of her inability to cope with being related to the most evil man in the galaxy. Finn is battling with a wholly rational fear of the people who raised him and ultimately discovered something about himself that would potentially upturn his entire world if anyone knew, and thus would rather die then even admit to Poe his secret. And Kylo was betrayed by the one man whom he should've been able to utterly trust and having destroyed the Jedi order felt his only chance of survival was to join a side that sat firmly against his moral compass. Ben didn't want to be evil, he just felt like he had no other choice but when he did find the strength to do the right thing, he discarded everything that he didn't need, his weapon, his voice and ultimately his life to save the only person in the galaxy that mattered to him. I mean I can get problems with how things happened all day, but I feel it had a solid story and character context at it's core.

I presume Rey died for the reason Ben ultimately did. Exhaustion. The Emperor had just pulled most of the life force out of their bodies to regenerate himself, so while she was able to form the ultimate shield; it took pretty much everything she had left.

I do agree on many of the side characters; though I guess the thing is not everyone needs a fully developed character arc. That was probably the biggest problem with TLJ, it didn't know *who's* story it was telling (of which, the OT was Luke, PT Annie.) and doubled the cast of complicated characters with depth and role. That dragged the plot to a crawl and, to this day, I still believe Poe being an independent main character is a mistake; there's a reason Chewie existed in the OT and that was to provide a mouth piece to Han without necessarily introducing a fully formed character, in the same way that CP30 and R2 basically were supporting rather then focus characters. He growls, people comment on the growls and everyone gets a hearty chuckle but ultimately chewie is a pretty 1D character who doesn't exist to develop motivations or question his reason for being, he is kinda there to bounce ideas off and occasionally show what everyone else is feeling; like immediately strangling Lando as soon as he was free! XD. So it's a case of either or; I feel the stormtrooper lass while not ground-breaking served as a mouthpiece for Finn's story arc while explaining where the additional troops came from; especially as Rey wasn't really avalible to bounce off by that point. On the topic of Rose I never had a problem with her either; she served as a fresh perspective on how the ordinary rank and file saw these heroic figures and was kinda needed to serve as a counterpoint in the absence of other characters and you know what if I just saved my idol from doing something stupid and felt I was gonna die, I might just snog him too to take a mark off my punctured bucket list! XD Just I felt that commentary of that story arc was more direct at world politics as the underlaying message of the Star Wars movies tends to be rather then directed at the core plot of the movie. E.g. There are capitalists selling weapons to a terrorist group (first order); that terrorist group then proceeded to blow up the centre of trade (The Republic fleet and the house of the senate). Sounds familiar? I think it's pretty intentional dig at the arms trade most "civilised countries" happily engage with under the table trades with rebel groups to topple regimes, only for the consequences to ultimately bite them in the **** when those same weapons are used against us by the people who have grown to resent western interference. I wish that had been more then just a throwaway line in a singular story arc.

Does it give the impression I don't like Poe? He's a good actor and stuff and I liked the antagonistic relationship between him and Rey particularly (which probably pretty accurate reflects the rank and file view on Jedi. Always training, never contributing.), I just don't necessarily feel that he needed the promotion and found his story arc really distracting in TLJ; 4/5 story arcs going on in act 2 of a film means that every story has less time to develop; so I ended up wondering what it was the character's even learnt as our glances into their world was increasingly brief. It's fine to have 1D supporting characters who aren't the focus.


Personally I enjoyed the experience; more because I don't really have a huge investment in it. I guess my four year prediction of Rey being a clone was incorrect. XD But the fact she was always someone means I wasn't entirely incorrect either. I don't think it's a great movie, just a neat little way to waste sometime, make notes for what I would want to do if my GM decided to host a game in that era (e.g. He most definitely will knowing him) and watch my friends get super irritate over stuff that really doesn't matter. XD

On one note though; what the **** was up with the horses? I remembered laughing out loud at part, I just ended up breaking and laughing for a good minute

Okay, this movie really is a lot better the second time around.
Once you really have had some time to digest your first viewing then I highly suggest rewatching it in the cinema.

2 hours ago, DanteRotterdam said:

Okay, this movie really is a lot better the second time around.
Once you really have had some time to digest your first viewing then I highly suggest rewatching it in the cinema.

That's what I did. And while it made it easier to tolerate our even like my more minor nitpicks, I only doubled down on my biggest gripes:

- Palpatine coming back invalidating the prophecy and thus all of the previous trilogies.

- Rey being his granddaughter invalidated VII and VIII's themes of making your own future and being exceptional, not because of your lineage, but because of your spirit.

- Even briefly hinting at a romance between Rey and Kylo, who has been nothing but abusive and hateful towards her, pushes every NOPE button in my brain, (but I'm biased from an abusive childhood, so YMMV.)