A thought about families.

The Skywalker line was an anomaly. Literally: Shmi Skywalker woke up pregnant one day, and nobody seemed to know why. As far as anyone can tell, Anakin was the result of immaculate conception by the Force itself.

What if that never happened?

Well, around the time Anakin should have been born, the first seeds of the Galactic Empire were sown by Palpatine. This was when he started building influence in the Republic and the nascent Separatist movement, recruiting Count Dooku, commissioning the Clone Armies and their support vessels, etc. Without Anakin, this culminates in the annexation of Naboo by the Trade Federation, this time for good. Padme Amidala likely dies with her planet's liberty. Obi-Wan Kenobi probably still defeats Darth Maul and escapes the planet, but is unable to save it.

The Empire rises from the ashes of civil war. Palpatine never reveals himself to Anakin, and never has to confront Mace Windu directly. He is able to betray the Jedi in safety. Kenobi and Yoda go into hiding.

The Rebellion fares poorly. The Death Star is invulnerable to conventional assault; Rebel strikecraft cannot breach its vulnerable exhaust port. Alderaan and Yavin IV are destroyed. More worlds join them. A second wave of uprisings occurs, but the Empire is transitioning further away from the Republic. They've started harvesting children and enacting ever more brutal purges, moving in the direction of the First Order and eventually, as planet-killer tech improves, the horrific power of the Final Order.

Palpatine's hitherto-unknown family remains in safety on some hidden planet. There is no Rebellion to set them free, allowing them to temporarily escape the Sith cult (an assumption on my part regarding their timeline). In time, Rey Palpatine is born and presented to her grandfather the Emperor. She's excellent: a powerful host for the Sith legacy. Raised in privilege, Rey is prepared to become Empress. There is nobody to share her pain.

Emperor Palpatine refuses to die, of course, so it falls to Rey to seize the throne herself. Which she does, finally completing the Rule of Two and forging another link in the chain of the Sith. She inherits a fleet of planet-killers and absolutely no compassion whatsoever. The Emperor had to fight for every bit of his power; the Empress was raised to expect it. She's just as evil as the Emperor, but has none of his patience or sympathy.

The Emperor was nothing compared to the Final Empress.

As you can imagine, this does not end well for life in the Galaxy... what little remains of it. Eventually, new planets form and new life evolves, but the legacy of the Final Empress has scarred the Galaxy forever.

That was the Saga of the Palpatines.

The Saga of the Skywalkers slams into the Palpatines out of nowhere, and derails it comprehensively. Three generations of Skywalker are born, and all of them die sacrificing themselves for others. They walk the line between light and darkness, and all ultimately reject the dark, even if it costs them everything. In the end, none of them are left. Their story is done, and they depart the universe as mysteriously as they entered it.

But Rey Palpatine goes from the lap of privilege to being a slave on some nowhere sandball, and that's enough to save her... and the Galaxy.

While they're at it, the Skywalkers also bring down the Empire before it can bring its industrial tyranny to bear on the Galaxy at large. Luke and Leia save everything from going the way of the First Order. A generation grows up knowing their own parents. They can never imagine what horrors they averted, but they save the Galaxy anyway. Luke and Leia might experience doubt in their final years, but once they're done, I imagine they have a better vision of their role in things, the genocides and soul-crushing social destruction that the Palpatines would have wrought if left unchecked.

That's the biggest of big pictures, and I think I like it.

49 minutes ago, Seguleh said:

? Partly, but what's ur point? There are still much less ships in the new sequel and they do not have the cool background story of development the old ones had.

My point is that you're on about a relative non-issue. There were enough ships and other vehicles in the new trilogy to fill two full cross-section books, and part of the third film's Visual Dictionary (not counting any introduced in Rogue One or Solo). And also pointing out that, as I've mentioned a few times, a significant portion of the GCW-era ships in the X-Wing game line (where you seem to be focusing your "lack of toys" point the most) aren't from the movies, but from other media, which may now find themselves free to introduce new designs for the sequel era.

54 minutes ago, Seguleh said:

And who complained about "they just try to sell toys" first semester students who want to change "the whole system"? No **** Einsteins, it is a company.

Plenty did. One of the complaints about the prequels were that they were seen as two hour commercials for toys and video games more than stories in their own right. (One author whose work I enjoy mentioned that, while watching Attack of the Clones with his daughter, when Anakin and Padme got to Geonosis, he thought, "And this will be a level in a video game somewhere....")

6 minutes ago, Voltron64 said:

A thought about families.

The Skywalker line was an anomaly. Literally: Shmi Skywalker woke up pregnant one day, and nobody seemed to know why. As far as anyone can tell, Anakin was the result of immaculate conception by the Force itself.

What if that never happened?

Well, around the time Anakin should have been born, the first seeds of the Galactic Empire were sown by Palpatine. This was when he started building influence in the Republic and the nascent Separatist movement, recruiting Count Dooku, commissioning the Clone Armies and their support vessels, etc. Without Anakin, this culminates in the annexation of Naboo by the Trade Federation, this time for good. Padme Amidala likely dies with her planet's liberty. Obi-Wan Kenobi probably still defeats Darth Maul and escapes the planet, but is unable to save it.

The Empire rises from the ashes of civil war. Palpatine never reveals himself to Anakin, and never has to confront Mace Windu directly. He is able to betray the Jedi in safety. Kenobi and Yoda go into hiding.

The Rebellion fares poorly. The Death Star is invulnerable to conventional assault; Rebel strikecraft cannot breach its vulnerable exhaust port. Alderaan and Yavin IV are destroyed. More worlds join them. A second wave of uprisings occurs, but the Empire is transitioning further away from the Republic. They've started harvesting children and enacting ever more brutal purges, moving in the direction of the First Order and eventually, as planet-killer tech improves, the horrific power of the Final Order.

Palpatine's hitherto-unknown family remains in safety on some hidden planet. There is no Rebellion to set them free, allowing them to temporarily escape the Sith cult (an assumption on my part regarding their timeline). In time, Rey Palpatine is born and presented to her grandfather the Emperor. She's excellent: a powerful host for the Sith legacy. Raised in privilege, Rey is prepared to become Empress. There is nobody to share her pain.

Emperor Palpatine refuses to die, of course, so it falls to Rey to seize the throne herself. Which she does, finally completing the Rule of Two and forging another link in the chain of the Sith. She inherits a fleet of planet-killers and absolutely no compassion whatsoever. The Emperor had to fight for every bit of his power; the Empress was raised to expect it. She's just as evil as the Emperor, but has none of his patience or sympathy.

The Emperor was nothing compared to the Final Empress.

As you can imagine, this does not end well for life in the Galaxy... what little remains of it. Eventually, new planets form and new life evolves, but the legacy of the Final Empress has scarred the Galaxy forever.

That was the Saga of the Palpatines.

The Saga of the Skywalkers slams into the Palpatines out of nowhere, and derails it comprehensively. Three generations of Skywalker are born, and all of them die sacrificing themselves for others. They walk the line between light and darkness, and all ultimately reject the dark, even if it costs them everything. In the end, none of them are left. Their story is done, and they depart the universe as mysteriously as they entered it.

But Rey Palpatine goes from the lap of privilege to being a slave on some nowhere sandball, and that's enough to save her... and the Galaxy.

While they're at it, the Skywalkers also bring down the Empire before it can bring its industrial tyranny to bear on the Galaxy at large. Luke and Leia save everything from going the way of the First Order. A generation grows up knowing their own parents. They can never imagine what horrors they averted, but they save the Galaxy anyway. Luke and Leia might experience doubt in their final years, but once they're done, I imagine they have a better vision of their role in things, the genocides and soul-crushing social destruction that the Palpatines would have wrought if left unchecked.

That's the biggest of big pictures, and I think I like it.

I haven’t got anything to add, but I do really like the way you think. I don’t think it could’ve been articulated any better.

2 minutes ago, LordBritish said:

I haven’t got anything to add, but I do really like the way you think. I don’t think it could’ve been articulated any better.

I'll admit, I wasn't sure about Rey being a Palpatine at first. But the record shows I dig it now.

On a personal level, it cements her position as nobody. Everything that being a Palpatine could bring her, she rejects. Power, a place to belong, even a name: all explicitly rejected.

(And this is where further thought reveals a weakness in the film: Rey's Dark Side double in the Death Star vault is just a recapitulation of Vader in the tree. At this point, she knows she's a Disney Princess. Her double should have been clad in regal garb and driven her back with lightning. It would be the filling in the sandwich of her thinking she's killed Chewie, and her fighting her grandfather in the finale. It would be preying on her doubt in her own powers, and the temptation to embrace her heritage later. Small thing, but it would have added to the film.)

On a broader level, her ancestry brings in themes that are reflected in the Skywalkers. I struggle to see how Kylo Ren could have redeemed himself without this context. Even if Snoke had still been around, Snoke is a lightweight Palpatine substitute, and we all know it. (I'm not saying we can't build up a villain who only appears in the final act; the Emperor himself first appeared in the flesh in the last film of the original trilogy. But he'd had a lot of buildup by that point: a spooky hologram, and the very existence of the Empire itself.) Basically, if Luke and Leia failed to raise Ben (and guide the Galaxy to lasting peace) because of some new threat, they failed in the worst way, punked to build up an unearned villain. But if they were deliberately targeted by a pre-existing threat, that feels more earned.

A new villain sends the message: "Evil will always rise, and heroes will ultimately fail." An old villain sends the opposite: "Evil can be fought, diminished, and ultimately defeated."

Again, there are ways this could be played around. I think a lot of us were expecting Kylo Ren to be the Big Bad of the trilogy, which could have worked. But it doesn't bring a great end to the Saga of the Skywalkers: "Some of them weren't evil, I guess, but it's good that they're gone". A third-party villain like Snoke or, say, a hitherto-unseen Sith Lord like Darth Plagius pulling the strings, would give Kylo a chance at redemption, but would need a lot of setup that I can't see in retrospect.

Tying the Palpatines into it, retroactively making Rey the whole point of the 9 movies, really does seem to be the best thing for the characters.

3 hours ago, Nytwyng said:

And how many were in the original trilogy? Not many. Most came from other sources.

The originals and prequels were massively more toyetic than the sequels, with multiple brandnew ships for every film, and a lot more variety in both new characters and outfits for the main characters to produce multiple interesting versions of their action figures. George Lucas really kept an eye out for that. There's no way he'd put something like Maz Kanata's fortress in a movie without having a dozen random aliens from that place with two seconds of screen time be action figures.

As for the original trilogy, there weren't any other sources back then. There were a few minor vehicles Kenner made up themselves once the well ran dry though, but pretty much everything came from the movies, and it was a lot. I know, because I collected that stuff back then when it came out.

9 minutes ago, micheldebruyn said:

multiple brandnew ships for every film

I am pretty sure that ESB had the least new aliens, droids and new ships of any of the 9 movies...

1 hour ago, Voltron64 said:

A thought about families.

The Skywalker line was an anomaly. Literally: Shmi Skywalker woke up pregnant one day, and nobody seemed to know why. As far as anyone can tell, Anakin was the result of immaculate conception by the Force itself.

What if that never happened?

Well, around the time Anakin should have been born, the first seeds of the Galactic Empire were sown by Palpatine. This was when he started building influence in the Republic and the nascent Separatist movement, recruiting Count Dooku, commissioning the Clone Armies and their support vessels, etc. Without Anakin, this culminates in the annexation of Naboo by the Trade Federation, this time for good. Padme Amidala likely dies with her planet's liberty. Obi-Wan Kenobi probably still defeats Darth Maul and escapes the planet, but is unable to save it.

I think that if Anakin doesn't exist, then Qui-Gon, Obi-Wan, and Amidala spend a whole lot longer on Tattooine, and by the time they get back to the Republic, it probably won't matter anymore for Naboo, and Palpatine will already be Supreme Chancellor. Obi-Wan never fights Maul until significantly later.

Also, without Anakin waiting in the wings as Palpatin's destined apprentice, there is no need for Maul to die, and without Luke being in the original trilogy, there is no need for Obi-Wan to survive a fight with Maul.

And being an actual, proper, not physically and emotionally crippled Sith apprentice, once Maul comes into his full power, Palpatine just might suffer the same fate as his own Master.

1 minute ago, micheldebruyn said:

The originals and prequels were massively more toyetic than the sequels, with multiple brandnew ships for every film, and a lot more variety in both new characters and outfits for the main characters to produce multiple interesting versions of their action figures. George Lucas really kept an eye out for that. There's no way he'd put something like Maz Kanata's fortress in a movie without having a dozen random aliens from that place with two seconds of screen time be action figures.

As for the original trilogy, there weren't any other sources back then. There were a few minor vehicles Kenner made up themselves once the well ran dry though, but pretty much everything came from the movies, and it was a lot. I know, because I collected that stuff back then when it came out.

Oh, I was right in the sweet spot for the toys back then (7 when the original came out). From that first movie, we got (at action figure scale) a landspeeder, X-wing, TIE, and Vader's TIE (the TIE molded in a different color with different solar panels). We didn't get a Millennium Falcon until 1979. What I've been trying to say is that there wasn't a huge number of vehicles (even if there were lots of toys), and the one specific product line that Seguleh keeps circling back to (FFG's own X-Wing Miniatures Game) is populated with as many (if not more) designs from outside the movies.

Toy marketing, especially for big franchises like Star Wars, has (for better or for worse) shifted. They're targeted to adult collectors as much (if not more) than kids for play. The 3.75" figure line (the one most kids would actually play with, and of a scale to allow for more vehicles) is virtually non-existent, with the focus on the 6" Black Series. At nearly twice the size, and double the price point, these aren't figures designed for a kid to see in a store and mom/dad to grab for that kid to play with as an impulse buy. They're for collectors to specifically seek out to display. And with that size, any vehicles would be prohibitively large and at a price point that would absolutely turn non-collectors off.

Don't get me wrong...I'm not excusing a lack of smaller-scale toy availability. I'm just saying there's not been a significant drop in available new (or "new") designs. Not exploiting those designs is a whole different matter.

5 minutes ago, DanteRotterdam said:

I am pretty sure that ESB had the least new aliens, droids and new ships of any of the 9 movies...

Top of my head, TIE Bomber, Slave I, Cloud Cars, AT-ATs, AT-STs, Snowspeeders, a star Destroyer bridge set...

Droids and aliens: those two medical droids (I'm still not convinced FX-7 wasn't just scenery in the film), the Wampa, the bounty hunters, Ughnaughts, YODA... But yeah, the Cantina and Jabba's palace in the other two films act as multipliers for number of action figures.

While Episodes 7 and 8 may have had more stuff in them (well, aliens anyway, I can't remember even one actually new ship other than Kylo's TIE), I don't think they were as agressively turned into toys as the originals were.

2 minutes ago, micheldebruyn said:

While Episodes 7 and 8 may have had more stuff in them (well, aliens anyway, I can't remember even one actually new ship other than Kylo's TIE), I don't think they were as agressively turned into toys as the originals were.

I seem to recall Poe's X-wing, but could be imagining it. Lack of production by Hasbro, though, is a different matter than lack of ships/vehicles. If we look at sell-through, though, the market seems to have shifted away from the days of random background characters selling as figures. How many Constable Zuvio figures warmed pegs worldwide? 😉

11 minutes ago, micheldebruyn said:

I can't remember even one actually new ship other than Kylo's TIE

Well there is quite a few. The Yacht, Snoke’s Destroyer, Rey’s Speeder, Solo’s cargo ship, Kylo’s shuttle, the Assault Walker, Resistance Bombers, AT-M6, Raddus, Ninka, transport pod, ski speeders, and many more.

I wonder whether we will ever see toys like we saw for the ot ever again...

2 minutes ago, DanteRotterdam said:

I wonder whether we will ever see toys like we saw for the ot ever again...

Won't happen til the bottom falls out of the toy collectibles market. 😢