10 hours ago, Nytwyng said:

I'm asking you straight up again, Tramp: Why are you so invested in getting me to change my opinion on this story point that you're spending post after post "emphasizing" the very things that I dislike about the decision, as if repetition and "emphasis" will make me suddenly say, "Oh my gosh! I was so totally wrong! I love this decision! It's the best thing ever!"? And why does it seem to matter so much to you that I didn't care for it, regardless of what my reasons are?

Sum it up in one word. Troll

😁

7 minutes ago, Jareth Valar said:

Sum it up in one word. Troll

😁

I wouldn't go so far as to call Tramp a troll.

But, there are definitely topics that he just. Won't. Let. Go.

It appears we can add "Rey is a Palpatine" to that list.

(If you really wanna spin him up, just mention that, per LFL, in current canon, Angojay Ettfay isn't an Andalorianmay. 🤣 You'll get days and days of posts about how, despite the decision made by the people who actually get to make such decisions, he d@mn sure is. Complete with a lot of "emphasis.")

But, when not on one of the topics that he latches onto and thrashes around like a stereotypical pit bull, he can be a genuinely fun guy to interact with.

Hm. Why is Luke named Skywalker? Anakin was anakin Skywalker, right?

Then his mother (a Skywalker) got bought out of slavery, and the new family took her name? But the adoptive parents of Luke where not blood related to him or where they? Shouldn't he have a different name? Like Luke wetfarmer? Or did they let him keep the name so he is easier to find for the empire?

I never really thought about that, but....

Oh, and did Leia keep organza or did she become a Skywalker too? Or a solo?

12 minutes ago, Seguleh said:

Hm. Why is Luke named Skywalker? Anakin was anakin Skywalker, right?

Then his mother (a Skywalker) got bought out of slavery, and the new family took her name? But the adoptive parents of Luke where not blood related to him or where they? Shouldn't he have a different name? Like Luke wetfarmer? Or did they let him keep the name so he is easier to find for the empire?

I never really thought about that, but....

No, the family name was Lars. Cleigg Lars introduces himself to Anakin by name in AotC, as did Owen. Why did Luke keep the family name? Well, the boring, real world answer is that Vader as Luke's father wasn't even an idea until the writing of ESB. (If we want to get cynical, keeping the Skywalker name and putting Luke on Anakin/Vader's home planet has been suggested by some as intentionally putting a target on Luke's back, while preparing Leia to be the one trained to take Vader down. The Yoda story in the From a Certain Point of View anthology explicitly states that Yoda was expecting to train Leia, not Luke.)

19 minutes ago, Seguleh said:

Oh, and did Leia keep organza or did she become a Skywalker too? Or a solo?

Well, in all three sequel movies, she was addressed as "General Organa," so....

6 hours ago, Nytwyng said:

I wouldn't go so far as to call Tramp a troll.

But, there are definitely topics that he just. Won't. Let. Go.

It appears we can add "Rey is a Palpatine" to that list.

(If you really wanna spin him up, just mention that, per LFL, in current canon, Angojay Ettfay isn't an Andalorianmay. 🤣 You'll get days and days of posts about how, despite the decision made by the people who actually get to make such decisions, he d@mn sure is. Complete with a lot of "emphasis.")

But, when not on one of the topics that he latches onto and thrashes around like a stereotypical pit bull, he can be a genuinely fun guy to interact with.

Arrogantly and belligerently acting like he is the authority on all things Star Wars.

Claiming he will never back down not ever wrong with his "knowledge".

Aggressively admonishing someone's opinion because it is obviously wrong (because he says it is).

When he is proven wrong he latches on to a different aspect of the conversation to still armor to prove his superiority, often with even more bolding.

Having the need to "win" every Star Wars "argument"(discussion or debate to the rest of the boards)

Yeah, I will gladly call Troll.

That doesn't mean that I haven't had decent dialog with him. I even agree on a few of his thoughts from time to time. That does not mean he isn't a troll.

Now, back on topic. I actually enjoyed the movie. A bit predictable, but definitely enjoyable.

On 12/28/2019 at 3:33 PM, Nytwyng said:

Would you please cite the source of this data?

Massive drop in toy sales that had Hasbro struggling? Box office drop from over 2 billion fo TFA to 1.3 billion of LJ? As a reaction Solo losing money? I'd call that obvious.

2 minutes ago, DarthDude said:

Massive drop in toy sales that had Hasbro struggling? Box office drop from over 2 billion fo TFA to 1.3 billion of LJ? As a reaction Solo losing money? I'd call that obvious.

None of this speaks to his claim that a majority of so-called “older fans” don’t enjoy the newer content.

But, he’s since copped to that.

20 minutes ago, Nytwyng said:

None of this speaks to his claim that a majority of so-called “older fans” don’t enjoy the newer content.

But, he’s since copped to that.

Seemingly a large portion of older fans who cherish "consistency" and who spent thousands of <insert currency here> for toys, memorabilia, etc stopped doing so from TLJ on. To the point that they are not interested into the new canon/trilogy any more. I can relate to them. Though I do not blindly hate all new Star Wars, I deeply love Mandalorian. Great cast, great story line.

Sure there will be older fans liking the new movies and as generic scifi movies they will appeal to many new fans and the visuals look cool. I will not deny that. I guess the big mistake that was made is that they tried to shoehorn a trilogy as the artificial conclusion of the Skywalker saga which was already perfectly concluded with episode 6. If they had just made a fresh start without direct family connections to the "old generation", it might have worked.

11 minutes ago, DarthDude said:

Seemingly a large portion of older fans who cherish "consistency" and who spent thousands of <insert currency here> for toys, memorabilia, etc stopped doing so from TLJ on. To the point that they are not interested into the new canon/trilogy any more. I can relate to them. Though I do not blindly hate all new Star Wars, I deeply love Mandalorian. Great cast, great story line.

Sure there will be older fans liking the new movies and as generic scifi movies they will appeal to many new fans and the visuals look cool. I will not deny that. I guess the big mistake that was made is that they tried to shoehorn a trilogy as the artificial conclusion of the Skywalker saga which was already perfectly concluded with episode 6. If they had just made a fresh start without direct family connections to the "old generation", it might have worked.

The key word there is “seemingly.”

There’s a truism that someone dissatisfied with something - a movie, customer service, whatever - is more likely to voice their opinion than someone who’s satisfied. Add in that there are people who’ve discovered how easy it is to monetize division and “controversy.”

Sure, there will be fans who’ve come into the franchise at a variety of points who don’t like any given set of the movies. But such a blanket statement that a majority of fans of the OT don’t like the new content doesn’t have anything beyond anecdotal evidence and some people’s personal preferences behind it.

32 minutes ago, Nytwyng said:

The key word there is “seemingly.”

There’s a truism that someone dissatisfied with something - a movie, customer service, whatever - is more likely to voice their opinion than someone who’s satisfied. Add in that there are people who’ve discovered how easy it is to monetize division and “controversy.”

Sure, there will be fans who’ve come into the franchise at a variety of points who don’t like any given set of the movies. But such a blanket statement that a majority of fans of the OT don’t like the new content doesn’t have anything beyond anecdotal evidence and some people’s personal preferences behind it.

But you will surely not deny the massive drop in toy sales.

And the box office drop which are based on numbers and not assumptions by a dissatisfied bunch? Solo did lose money, that's a fact. TROS performs worse than TLJ ($1,332,539,889), which already performed way weaker than TFA ($2,068,223,624), so to say by over $700 mio. This is a bit more than a "feeling" (imagine Boston song here). If TROS stays beneath TLJ, Disney is right to be concerned.

37 minutes ago, Nytwyng said:

Sure, there will be fans who’ve come into the franchise at a variety of points who don’t like any given set of the movies. But such a blanket statement that a majority of fans of the OT don’t like the new content doesn’t have anything beyond anecdotal evidence and some people’s personal preferences behind it.

And as a sidenote, I did say "large portion" not the "majority of fans". Please cite correctly if you cite me.

17 minutes ago, DarthDude said:

But you will surely not deny the massive drop in toy sales.

Toy sales still don’t speak to the premise of “a majority of OT fans don’t like the new content.”

19 minutes ago, DarthDude said:

And the box office drop which are based on numbers and not assumptions by a dissatisfied bunch? Solo did lose money, that's a fact. TROS performs worse than TLJ ($1,332,539,889), which already performed way weaker than TFA ($2,068,223,624), so to say by over $700 mio. This is a bit more than a "feeling" (imagine Boston song here). If TROS stays beneath TLJ, Disney is right to be concerned.

There have been discussions about box office elsewhere and (I think) in this thread. To summarize, there are more factors involved than just the suggestion that “fans of the OT don’t like the newer material.” With TFA the first new Star Wars movie in 10 years, the first with any of the original characters in 32, and the first since the Disney buyout, a drop from it to TLJ would be expected. Solo had an entire host of problems, not the least of which was premiering just weeks after a movie that was not only the highest grossing of the year and appealed to much same audience, but that also performed better than even the most optimistic forecasts.

And it still doesn’t speak to the premise that a majority of fans of the original movies don’t like the newer content.

2 minutes ago, DarthDude said:

And as a sidenote, I did say "large portion" not the "majority of fans". Please cite correctly if you cite me.

Sounds like we’re not having the same conversation. You were replying to my own earlier reply to someone who asserted that, if you polled 1000 fans of the original trilogy, more would say they don’t enjoy the new content than do. I’ve been working under the impression that you were continuing that train of thought by remarking on my response to that point.

Just now, Nytwyng said:

Toy sales still don’t speak to the premise of “a majority of OT fans don’t like the new content.”

You still keep citing me wrong? My words were "large portion of older fans ". Please do not put words in my mouth I did not say.

Just now, DarthDude said:

You still keep citing me wrong? My words were "large portion of older fans ". Please do not put words in my mouth I did not say.

See previous reply.

1 minute ago, Nytwyng said:

Sounds like we’re not having the same conversation. You were replying to my own earlier reply to someone who asserted that, if you polled 1000 fans of the original trilogy, more would say they don’t enjoy the new content than do. I’ve been working under the impression that you were continuing that train of thought by remarking on my response to that point.

If I meant "majority" I would have said so. I deliberately spoke of a "large portion".

To conclude this ping pong, nobody knows how large this portion disliking the new trilogy is, neither you, nor me. But looking at the numbers it must be a very well-funded part, that`'s raw mathematics.

4 minutes ago, DarthDude said:

If I meant "majority" I would have said so. I deliberately spoke of a "large portion".

Once again, I was of the impression that you were continuing the idea that you, y’know, responded to.

1 minute ago, Nytwyng said:

Once again, I was of the impression that you were continuing the idea that you, y’know, responded to.

See previous reply.

9 hours ago, Jareth Valar said:

Sum it up in one word. Troll

😁

Tramp is not a troll. Like most people who habit Internet forums, he has social deficits.

I’ll say this about him, the characters he creates on the pbp forums are very conceptual in nature and non “optimal” builds. Something I appreciate and like as a GM.

3 minutes ago, Sincereagape said:

I’ll say this about him, the characters he creates on the pbp forums are very conceptual in nature and non “optimal” builds. Something I appreciate and like as a GM.

I'm genuinely happy to know that. It's not as common a gift as I'd like.

Toy sales is a big point! And a very interesting!

When I walked out of TFA, I remember thinking five things:

wow they almost copie-pasted episode 4.

They overdid the main character a lot.

what the last subway is gone already?

And they reused the old starfighters? Don't they want to sell toys?

Why did they make the movie look so boring, why didn't they pick cooler planets.?

The 4th point I couldn't understand because Disney should know how to make money. AFAIK Lukas made his money with the toys. So what did they decide to do? Bring back the tie fighter and x wing in almost the same Form. Cool... Not. As a x-wing player and collector that was said and as an engineer it hurt, because maaaaan they found out 20 years ago that small hyperspace capable ships and bombers are very effective against large battleships and so on. What do they build 20 years later? Large battleships... The EU knows so many cool ship type they could have used, from the interceptor to the defender, but no they recolored the tie fighter. Oh and gave a fighter that has two gigantic side panels a turnable tower... Maybe give your starships turbolasers that point inwards then the battle is over quicker.

I also were surprised in episode 9 to see almost none cool new starfighters, transporters or whatever.

5 minutes ago, Seguleh said:

Toy sales is a big point! And a very interesting!

When I walked out of TFA, I remember thinking five things:

wow they almost copie-pasted episode 4.

They overdid the main character a lot.

what the last subway is gone already?

And they reused the old starfighters? Don't they want to sell toys?

Why did they make the movie look so boring, why didn't they pick cooler planets.?

The 4th point I couldn't understand because Disney should know how to make money. AFAIK Lukas made his money with the toys. So what did they decide to do? Bring back the tie fighter and x wing in almost the same Form. Cool... Not. As a x-wing player and collector that was said and as an engineer it hurt, because maaaaan they found out 20 years ago that small hyperspace capable ships and bombers are very effective against large battleships and so on. What do they build 20 years later? Large battleships... The EU knows so many cool ship type they could have used, from the interceptor to the defender, but no they recolored the tie fighter. Oh and gave a fighter that has two gigantic side panels a turnable tower... Maybe give your starships turbolasers that point inwards then the battle is over quicker.

I also were surprised in episode 9 to see almost none cool new starfighters, transporters or whatever.

That's the point, on the one hand they pretend to subvert expectations like Johnson with his "artistic entitlement" on the other hand you have a non-creative copy and paster like Abrahams and obviously they didn't consult each other and showed each other the middle finger instead.

And the main flaw is the missing consistency. I get it, that Kennedy, as soon as the ink got wet, dumped 30 years of rich EU but as I am informed, the OT and the prequels are still canon. Many descisions of the sequels lead the "laws" of Star Wars ad absurdum, like the Holdo maneuvre. First, Hyperspace in Star wars does not work like light speed, you rather enter an alternate dimension instead of ramming an object with light speed in "our dimension". When you exit Hyperspace, the star ship does not store the kinetic energy from light speed, it just exits "smoothly". Second, why would anybody care to build enourmous battle ships (or even death stars) if a small droid piloted fighter would suffice to easily dispatch a Star Destroyer? The enourmous fleet of the emperor in TROS thus makes no sense at all (besides being linked which is again a tactical suicide). It just makes no sense.

And now you are also awarded with captain marvel like jedi super powers just by the merit of birth (or coincidence) instead of training. Palpatine said in the prequels that Anakin (the supposed chosen one) will surpass him and Yoda force power wise and still Anakin had to go through all the training, but obviously, the hero's journey is not en vogue any more. Modern heroes seem to be entitled to get everythink at once without hard training. The new take on the force renders 25k of Jedi order and laws of force completely irrelevant.

Btw, you want a great female Star Wars heroes? Look no further than Asoka Tano or Cara Dune from the Mandalorian, who is a believable bad *** I want to see more from.

At the end, the contradictions towards the first six movies and among the sequel trilogy itself is that leave me really disappointed. The sequels are sadly a missed opportunity. At least there is baby Yoda saving the day.

3 hours ago, DarthDude said:

But you will surely not deny the massive drop in toy sales.

And the box office drop which are based on numbers and not assumptions by a dissatisfied bunch? Solo did lose money, that's a fact. TROS performs worse than TLJ ($1,332,539,889), which already performed way weaker than TFA ($2,068,223,624), so to say by over $700 mio. This is a bit more than a "feeling" (imagine Boston song here). If TROS stays beneath TLJ, Disney is right to be concerned.

Has this been compared to toy sales overall? I mean, if the toy business was puttering along as usual, Toys R Us would still be in business. Sure, it's an effect of brick and mortar sales losing to online stores, but but I wouldn't be surprised if physical toys are losing ground to video games and the like.

Toy sales have been suffering most... well, a lot of places. There's more contributing factors than just straight numbers - the toy boom with brick and mortar has since died down a lot and most sales are online, now.

Also, where is that data from? Does it include Amazon sales?

I'm also in a FB group of 25,000+ of fans who like all the Star Wars movies, and a great number of them are OT fans and older fans. An anecdote, but anecdotes are not evidence.

Also, TRoS is gonna make over a billion, and the ST all making over a billion is not waning interest... you don't get that with just new fans. And Solo is the exception because it had other factors and being released close to Infinity War did it a disservice. I'd be curious to see the numbers for streaming views and video sales.

So, yeah, Disney is doing just fine.