Trying to make sense of the Chinese market for films is something professionals can't always grasp, so.

Captain America is hugely popular there and well.... yeah. That was not something Disney/Marvel expected.

It's best to leave that beast alone, imo.

10 minutes ago, Eoen said:

Sure it is those are all action movies, how well did Pride and Prejudice do in China?

Action movie traditionally do better in foreign markets than dialogue movies. It’s one of the reasons Hollywood movies are in decline, they cater to much to foreign box office returns.

Star Wars has more action then Titanic. House of Mouse is doing well there.

1 hour ago, Sturn said:

Away put your political talk on our forums please. That is the way to the Dark Side.

Seriously, I come here for everything Star Wars and gaming specifically. Talk all you want about Star Wars politics, even reference real world politics when doing so occasionally, but please, please don't get into blatant political talk. Leave that far, far away in our own galaxy.

Since when has Star Wars not been about real world politics? The OT was a comment on the Nixon administration. While the meta-plot in the prequels is about how politics and wars are used to manipulate the public and advance a political agenda.

18 minutes ago, Eoen said:

Sure it is those are all action movies, how well did Pride and Prejudice do in China?

Action movie traditionally do better in foreign markets than dialogue movies. It’s one of the reasons Hollywood movies are in decline, they cater to much to foreign box office returns.

Zootopia did well. Fast and the Furious does incredibly well. Jurassic World. Very Western Market movies. Transformers. Star Wars has enough action to do well in China.

Edit: Toystory 3, Minions, Harry Potter and the Deathly Hollows 2.

23 minutes ago, StarkJunior said:

Trying to make sense of the Chinese market for films is something professionals can't always grasp, so.

Captain America is hugely popular there and well.... yeah. That was not something Disney/Marvel expected.

It's best to leave that beast alone, imo.

Not that difficult. 8 out of the 13 top Western Movie Franchises have had at least 1 movie that has done very well in China/Hong Kong market. Avengers, Spider Man, Batman, Transformers, Fast and the Furious, Harry Potter, Marvel Cinematic U, Jurassic World/Park.

It is the second largest film market in the world, so it should be important to film companies.

20 minutes ago, Sincereagape said:

Zootopia did well. Fast and the Furious does incredibly well. Jurassic World. Very Western Market movies. Transformers. Star Wars has enough action to do well in China.

Edit: Toystory 3, Minions, Harry Potter and the Deathly Hollows 2.

Low dialogue easy to translate and relate to.

3 minutes ago, Eoen said:

Low dialogue easy to translate and relate to.

You do know China is becoming incredibly Westernized? By the way, are you Chinese?

Just now, Sincereagape said:

You do know China is becoming incredibly Westernized? By the way, are you Chinese?

No I’m Canadian-American, Irish-German. I do know some Chinese people though, including my boss for the last ten years.

It’s not a function of being westernized it’s the language barrier. It’s long been known in Hollywood business media than low dialogue and action do better in all foreign markets. Thus we get a decline in dialogue in any film that wants to please the international box office.

28 minutes ago, Eoen said:

No I’m Canadian-American, Irish-German. I do know some Chinese people though, including my boss for the last ten years.

It’s not a function of being westernized it’s the language barrier. It’s long been known in Hollywood business media than low dialogue and action do better in all foreign markets. Thus we get a decline in dialogue in any film that wants to please the international box office.

Okay. I am Chinese ethnicity and have been watching Hong Kong Cinema all of my life, especially in Canto. My immediate family can speak Mandarin.

Fast and the Furious uses a lot of Western Slang. Avengers drops a lot of Western Pop Culture references. The movies that I listed above are all incredibly Westernized franchises. You made a good argument about the Chinese Market not being connected to the OT. That is a huge factor, if not the biggest. But as Gross Box office numbers in Hong Kong/China have shown, Western Movies can do very well in China, and the Cultural Differences have been greatly narrowed. English is becoming the second most popular language in China.

I'll give you the lack of connection to the OT. But the Cultural Differences argument for why SW does not do well in China/Hong Kong is greatly overrated if not, non-existent.

8 hours ago, micheldebruyn said:

It seems to have been changed now, but until TROS was released, the First Order meant order as the opposite of chaos, not order as in a synonym for command.

The First Order refered to the natural order of things: the powerful rule the weak and grind them into dust.

Given the secrecy in which Palps operated after his death over Endor's Forest Moon, it's quite likely that most of the First Order membership believed those two statements to be at the core for the First Order's name. It certainly makes sense for a group that grew from the Empire and its "might makes right" philosophy.

But man, Palps costume after he was rejuvenated! Real pretty! The red and black and yellow eyes. What a beaut!

1 hour ago, Sincereagape said:

I'll give you the lack of connection to the OT. But the Cultural Differences argument for why SW does not do well in China/Hong Kong is greatly overrated if not, non-existent.

I’m not just talking about China, all action movies do better than all non action movies in international markets because their low dialogue and they are low dialogue because the studios know it’s easier to translate a simple dialogue film into dozens of different languages.

As for Star Wars specifically, it’s not a pure action film it’s George Lucas’ political commentary on the Vietnam war, Nixon, and western politics of the English and post WW2 American empires. He has stated this in multiple interviews. Also it’s about selling toys.

“Yeah, and that’s unfortunate. Star Wars – Chinese audiences didn’t grow up with Star Wars culture so unfortunately it didn’t work. Marvel is a lot easier to understand. Star Wars, there’s a whole universe out there. Marvel, from the costumes, to the music, to the idols, to the stars, it's much easier to close the gap between the film itself and the audience .”

-Donnie Yen

3 hours ago, Eoen said:

The new trilogy has a much higher box office than the prequel trilogy and the only disappointment since Disney took over has been Solo, which I argue was released to soon after TLJ.

I'd say the biggest problem with Solo was that it came out in the wake of Avengers: Infinity War, which proved to be an even bigger box office juggernaut than predicted.

Add in the TLJ online backlash, concerns over the film needing to be re-shot in its near entirety (original directors were angling for a zany screwball comedy, which is not what LFL wanted at all), and as you said being released during the summer blockbuster season, it's almost amazing that Solo almost cleared the 400 million mark.

4 minutes ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

I'd say the biggest problem with Solo was that it came out in the wake of Avengers: Infinity War, which proved to be an even bigger box office juggernaut than predicted.

Add in the TLJ online backlash, concerns over the film needing to be re-shot in its near entirety (original directors were angling for a zany screwball comedy, which is not what LFL wanted at all), and as you said being released during the summer blockbuster season, it's almost amazing that Solo almost cleared the 400 million mark.

Star Wars should remain a December release, as it seems to be its 'place' - like Marvel has the early Spring/Summer and November market cornered.

Just now, StarkJunior said:

Star Wars should remain a December release, as it seems to be its 'place' - like Marvel has the early Spring/Summer and November market cornered.

Although I was initially put off by the move to December, it's actually become something of a tradition for us. Although my wife, son, and I go see each new one opening night, my dad comes into town the week of Christmas for the holiday (and our son's birthday, the same week), and ever since 2015, we've gone to see the latest movie (again) with him. Purely coincidentally, last year we had some electrical issues going on in the house, so he cancelled his trip at the last minute...and there was no December Star Wars to go to.

As much as I like the May timeframe for historical/nostalgic purposes, there's something fitting about Marvel releasing a movie the weekend of Free Comic Book Day every May.

10 minutes ago, StarkJunior said:

Star Wars should remain a December release, as it seems to be its 'place' - like Marvel has the early Spring/Summer and November market cornered.

I can agree with this sentiment.

3 hours ago, Sturn said:

You made me google cremant and learn something.

It's cheaper than champagne, and better too, according to some.

16 hours ago, Nytwyng said:

No, she didn't "have" to be (no matter what the use of Tramp Graphics Patented Semi-Random Bolding For Emphasis That Just Comes Across As Yelling Irrationally says 😉 ). But it's what Abrams chose to do, so we've gotta live with it. Rey could just as dramatically have been influenced by the so-called Skywalker "legacy" to stand against Palpatine, demonstrating that the "legacy" is to inspire hope and right among the everyday people of the galaxy, and would have worked with the First/Final Order's surprised realization that they were being undone not by some organized military force, but "Just...people," rather than working in opposition to that concept; nope, it's not "just...people" that make the difference, it has to be a Special. Instead, Abrams (and Terrio) chose to go the safer route and throw one of several pacifiers to those who've perpetrated fandalism for the past two years. It wasn't a choice that drives me to similar tantrums as those fandals, but it's the one choice made in the movie that I can honestly say I just don't like at all.

It's not because she's "special" that makes it important. It's the fact that she's family . It's the fact that Palpatine is part of her. It's the same as with Luke confronting Vader. IT's that symbolism.

34 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

It's not because she's "special" that makes it important. It's the fact that she's family . It's the fact that Palpatine is part of her. It's the same as with Luke confronting Vader. IT's that symbolism.

Same difference. She's not "just...people." She has to be Someone Special, someone connected. TLJ and the larger battle both reinforced the notion that heroes can come from anywhere, be anyone, "just...people." But, at the end of the day, to be the Big D@mn Hero, you have to be a Somebody. All of the "just...people" were irrelevant, because without the Special, they would have been lost.

And, that's without even accounting for the fact that the Luke/Vader symbolism is lost on the confrontation, because the reveal is just tossed in there 10 minutes before going off to confront Palpatine. Luke (and the audience) had the time between movies to chew on the reveal, ponder whether it was real or a deception, and come to terms with it. With Rey, she (and the audience) had that gap to accept that, despite being "nobody from nowhere," she had the strength and courage to step up and be the BDH. Now, though, "Oh, you're not a nobody...you're a Palpatine. And that's why you're part of the story. Now, since you're the only one who can stop your granddad, go do it. We've only got about 20-30 minutes of runtime left."

No amount of randomly bolded words to scream your perspective at me will change the bad taste it left in my proverbial mouth.

4 hours ago, micheldebruyn said:

Lucasfilm had planned to release in December. Disney overruled them and made them release it in May, in possibly the worst time in the entire year to release a blockbuster.

This is one of the few times where we know for certain Disney stepped in. They wanted two star Wars films per year.

My understanding from various press statements made at the time was that the intent for the May release was to continue that for all future movies going forward as a return to the tradition established by the OT and Prequels. Had Solo been more successful, it’s likely that RoS would have also been released in May.

1 minute ago, Tramp Graphics said:

My understanding from various press statements made at the time was that the intent for the May release was to continue that for all future movies going forward as a return to the tradition established by the OT and Prequels. Had Solo been more successful, it’s likely that RoS would have also been released in May.

It's likely they would have planned to release it in May, but considering the editors have been reported to say that they were still working on it until late November.... /shrug

18 minutes ago, Nytwyng said:

Same difference. She's not "just...people." She has to be Someone Special, someone connected. TLJ and the larger battle both reinforced the notion that heroes can come from anywhere, be anyone, "just...people." But, at the end of the day, to be the Big D@mn Hero, you have to be a Somebody. All of the "just...people" were irrelevant, because without the Special, they would have been lost.

And, that's without even accounting for the fact that the Luke/Vader symbolism is lost on the confrontation, because the reveal is just tossed in there 10 minutes before going off to confront Palpatine. Luke (and the audience) had the time between movies to chew on the reveal, ponder whether it was real or a deception, and come to terms with it. With Rey, she (and the audience) had that gap to accept that, despite being "nobody from nowhere," she had the strength and courage to step up and be the BDH. Now, though, "Oh, you're not a nobody...you're a Palpatine. And that's why you're part of the story. Now, since you're the only one who can stop your granddad, go do it. We've only got about 20-30 minutes of runtime left."

No amount of randomly bolded words to scream your perspective at me will change the bad taste it left in my proverbial mouth.

No, it isn’t the same. Think about it. In both cases you’re facing the ultimate evil. Now on top of that add the fact that you’ve found out that that ultimate evil is family; that he is a part of you, and that your entire legacy is one of darkness, deceit, tyranny, and death. Do you have the courage and strength of will to reject that legacy?

That makes the struggle much more personal. If Rey were a true “nobody from nowhere”, it would simply be a battle of a generic hero against a generic evil. There’s no personal struggle. It’s just good vs bad. But when you add in the family connection between hero and villain it adds massive levels of drama and pathos to the conflict by making it much more personal because Rey is now not only facing the Darkness without, but also the Darkness within because that ultimate Evil is a part of her . It’s much the same reason why Luke had to confront Vader in RotJ. It was specifically because Vader was Luke’s father that he had to confront him. This is paralleled in Rey’s confrontation with Palpatine.

Rey has to confront Palpatine because he’s family. That is the test of spirit she has to face. She’s facing the evil within not simply the evil without. That symbolism is completely lost if Rey was not Palpatine’s descendant. And that would ultimately have been detrimental to the story as a whole.

8 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

No, it isn’t the same. Think about it. In both cases you’re facing the ultimate evil. Now on top of that add the fact that you’ve found out that that ultimate evil is family; that he is a part of you, and that your entire legacy is one of darkness, deceit, tyranny, and death. Do you have the courage and strength of will to reject that legacy? That makes the struggle much more personal. If Rey were a true “nobody from nowhere”, it would simply be a battle of a generic hero against a generic evil. There’s no personal struggle. It’s just good vs bad. But when you add in the family connection between hero and villain it adds massive levels of drama and pathos to the conflict by making it much more personal because Rey is now not only facing the Darkness without, but also the Darkness within because that ultimate Evil is a part of her . It’s much the same reason why Luke had to confront Vader in RotJ. It was specifically because Vader was Luke’s father that he had to confront him. This is paralleled in Rey’s confrontation with Palpatine.

Rey has to confront Palpatine because he’s family. That is the test of spirit she has to face. She’s facing the evil within not simply the evil without. That symbolism is completely lost if Rey was not Palpatine’s descendant. And that would ultimately have been detrimental to the story as a whole.

Why do you think saying the same thing, a different way, and bolding different random elements makes a difference to me (especially when you're making the very point that I didn't like about it)?

Rey's now Someone, and being Someone is why she must be the hero. It invalidates the idea of "just...people" having just as much ability and agency to be the hero of the story. Sure, the "symbolism" you keep mentioning is lost if she's not a Palpatine...but then, that symbolism isn't necessary, and the symbolism of "just...people" defeating him is more powerful to me and more in line with the throughline of the sequel trilogy.

I didn't like the choice of giving her a Special Super Duper Bloodline Legacy Connection To Events And That's Why You're Important To The Story. I can't change it...it wasn't enough to make me hate the movie (although may have contributed to my finding it...just OK), and certainly wasn't enough to make me behave like the toxic fandals of the past two years.

It worked for you. It didn't work for me. Why keep shouting at me, trying to swing me around to your way of thinking?

13 minutes ago, Nytwyng said:

Why do you think saying the same thing, a different way, and bolding different random elements makes a difference to me (especially when you're making the very point that I didn't like about it)?

Rey's now Someone, and being Someone is why she must be the hero. It invalidates the idea of "just...people" having just as much ability and agency to be the hero of the story.

I didn't like the choice of giving her a Special Super Duper Bloodline Legacy Connection To Events And That's Why You're Important To The Story. I can't change it...it wasn't enough to make me hate the movie (although may have contributed to my finding it...just OK), and certainly wasn't enough to make me behave like the toxic fandals of the past two years.

It worked for you. It didn't work for me. Why keep shouting at me, trying to swing me around to your way of thinking?

It’s because you’re completely missing the point of the entire saga. The whole saga is one of legacy and how the hero deals with that legacy.

In the Prequels, Anakin had to deal with the legacy of being the “Chosen One” of Prophecy, and failed. In the OT, Luke had to deal with the legacy of being the son of Vader, and it was because of that connection, not the strength in the Force brought on by that bloodline, that he had to face Vader. He had to confront his own father with the possibility that he might have to kill him. Instead he was able to draw on that family connection to save Vader and redeem him from the Dark Side. In the Sequels, Rey has to face Palpatine, not simply because he was a tyrant, but because he was family, and as such his evil and his legacy of evil and tyranny is a part of her. It is her strength of will to turn away from and reject that legacy that gives her confrontation with Palpatine weight and makes it mythic.

So it’s not about the “power” of being from a powerful bloodline that her being a Palpatine that’s the main reason for her needing to be his granddaughter for the story to work. It’s the family connection itself and how their relationship with each other and the legacy that resulted from that which drives the whole narrative.

9 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

21 minutes ago, Nytwyng said:

It’s because you’re completely missing the point of the entire saga.

@Nytwyng 😂 Lol; all that time watching Star Wars wasted.

@Tramp Graphics 😱 over the top Tramp.