5 hours ago, BipolarJuice said:

In my experience, the nu-Star Wars seems more popular with people who didn't grow up with EU materials or casual movie goers. Amongst people who liked Star Wars prior to TFA, I haven't heard much in the way of praises. I wish rather than doing a sequel trilogy they just did a hard reboot, I would've found it less insulting.

Originally saw it in 1977 at age 7. I have bookshelves and comic boxes overflowing with “EU materials.” And toys, blu-rays, DVDs, laserdiscs, and VHS. For our 10th wedding anniversary, I (and our son) wore Jedi robes (complete with our own custom lightsaber hilts) while my wife wore a dress reminiscent of Padme’s wedding dress for a vow renewal.

Guess who likes “nu-Star Wars.”

1 hour ago, Jegergryte said:

This is what we call being blas´e , it overlaps with, but is not equivalent to: hipster, ironic distance, cynicism, narcissism, and several other things. No offence intended.

That is not to say your points are not valid, within the silo you see and interpret the film from, but they could be laughable and completely invalid from someone else's silo.

I guess I'm in a silo somewhere between your extreme and the other extreme.

Still, I contend that your "surprise" at others here not aligning with you, because your friends and social network align more with you, is based on the factors I pointed to.

As for why you dislike the film, I can sort of understand some of it, yet the "canon/common sense" argument is by itself very odd, as you put these two terms together, as if that is meaningful. I see this argument as reactionary and conservative, and as such irrelevant if any new creative endeavours within this storyverse is to be attempted. Sure, there are better examples (e.g. The Mandalorian) when trying to create something new, but when keeping within an already established and more or less ended story, the options are more limited, and the way forward differently challenging. Could they have done a "better" job? Sure, perhaps, but if you were happy, others would have made a laughing stock out of your love for the movies through insinuations and arguments to popularity and authority.

Nostalgia I'll agree with, but we knew that was happening, this film, if any of the new ones, was going to be filled to the brim with nostalgia, tying it all together. Personally, I like it, but I can easily see why someone would get fed up with it.

As for humour, there we'll just have to disagree.

A lack of a competent evil? I mean. Really? I'll allow: a missing clear and understandable motivation of the BBEG, but he's no more or less competent than any other SW evil guy. That we have memories and fondness about earlier films, doesn't make him more competent, it just reveals our inexperience at the time of viewing that. That "real tension" you refer to is an example of that. I believe. Because, partly I agree, but I put that down to me being blasé, which isn't making it any easier for me to enjoy stuff. And I like to enjoy stuff, so I try to avoid cynicism and being blasé if I can.

Sounds like a horrible audience at that cinema. and perhaps a bit pre-teen...?

No sorry I have to disagree to most Points. My Friends and me disagree in a lot of other Things, from books we like or dislike, politics, Society and so on. So if all agree that we don't like These movies it is not because we are in a bubble. I think what Bipolar Juice said is quite accurate or a good hint.

I also disagree that the it would Limit creativity to stick what happened, on the contrary. Fantasy and SciFi universes live from their established laws, for example how fast you can travel, what is powerfull and so on. If you throw these rules out of the window, it just becomes what I would call lazy writing. The Canon/comon sense is not odd together, it fits together in this Frame. When the Canon/Fantasy universe gives u new rules of Physics, People should addept to it in this world and behave accordingly. As a small example: When Rey and Kylo fought about this Transporter, foce Lightning came out pf her Hands, destroying it. First of all force Lightning was afaik a high class ability that you had to master, not something u just do. Second, later in the movie the lightning just seemed to EMP the starships. Sure u can argue arround all thatm say that Lightning was different, and Rey is so good in the force jada jada, but it would have been enough to just squeeze that Transporter, and since they both pulled on it also more Fitting. Why there was the Lightning? Because it looked cooler.

To the Humor: did you guys really have to laugh when Poe made fun of Hux at the beginning of Episode 8? That hurt my brain.

And to the competent Evil guy: Yes, really! Have you ever had the Feeling of real threat through the first order? As soon as they Show up their super-duper-huge-wepaons get blown to pieces. In Episode 4 and 5 the heroes and the rebels really had to run from the empire. And it is not an inexperience of viewing or beeing blase or whatever, I rewatched the old movies last year and just thought: man 4 and 5 is really good, 6 is ok

I like to enjoy stuff, but just when it is good, it is not like I am searching for mistakes or a reason to be mad. But I just watch it and think: uff this again? another fakedeath? another xyz?

and why do you have to call the audience horrible and pre-teen? they just didint like it or thought it is funny, and it is to be honest.

43 minutes ago, Nytwyng said:

Originally saw it in 1977 at age 7. I have bookshelves and comic boxes overflowing with “EU materials.” And toys, blu-rays, DVDs, laserdiscs, and VHS. For our 10th wedding anniversary, I (and our son) wore Jedi robes (complete with our own custom lightsaber hilts) while my wife wore a dress reminiscent of Padme’s wedding dress for a vow renewal.

Guess who likes “nu-Star Wars.”

He didnt say that this Statement is valid for every Person, but if you take 1000 old fans and 1000 new fans under the 1000 old fans more are disliking the new movies.

2 minutes ago, Seguleh said:

When Rey and Kylo fought about this Transporter, foce Lightning came out pf her Hands, destroying it. First of all force Lightning was afaik a high class ability that you had to master, not something u just do.

Key words (or, really, abbreviation) here: "As far as (you) know." Where did this hard and fast rule come from? Certainly not from the movies, which are the overriding arbiter on what is and isn't "true." The movies say nothing about it being "a high class ability that you had to master." In fact, they say absolutely nothing about it. They do hint that it's a dark side thing, and that's how it was used in TRoS: Rey got supremely ticked off in the moment and, zap.

5 minutes ago, Seguleh said:

To the Humor: did you guys really have to laugh when Poe made fun of Hux at the beginning of Episode 8? That hurt my brain.

I didn't "have to." But I did laugh. It fit what we knew of Poe's personality perfectly. When first face-to-face with Kylo Ren in TFA, his instinct was to be a smart-*****. Now, charged with delaying the First Order fleet and needing a few moments to charge up the booster engine on his X-wing, he stalled...by being a smart-*****.

3 minutes ago, Seguleh said:

He didnt say that this Statement is valid for every Person, but if you take 1000 old fans and 1000 new fans under the 1000 old fans more are disliking the new movies.

Would you please cite the source of this data?

28 minutes ago, Nytwyng said:

Would you please cite the source of this data?

I too am very interested in seeing the poll you base this one and where that particular line gets drawn. Again the bandwagon fallacy is very strong here

I don't know what bandwagon fallacy means, sry.

But could you guys please relax a bit more and try to read the context. Obviously pipolarJuice did not have a poll but was talking about his experience. Of course this experience is not statistically bulletproof, but no experience is.

A valid statistic that shows that a lot of people are not that satisfied with starwars is the dropping box office from star wars movies. Somehow every movie seems to attract less people than before. And the marvel movies show a different trend despite having even more movies in total and being from the same company.

And again: if you enjoy them, enjoy them. I don't want to convince anybody to dislike them.

14 minutes ago, Seguleh said:

A valid statistic that shows that a lot of people are not that satisfied with starwars is the dropping box office from star wars movies. Somehow every movie seems to attract less people than before. And the marvel movies show a different trend despite having even more movies in total and being from the same company.

The new trilogy has a much higher box office than the prequel trilogy and the only disappointment since Disney took over has been Solo, which I argue was released to soon after TLJ.

3 minutes ago, Eoen said:

The new trilogy has a much higher box office than the prequel trilogy and the only disappointment since Disney took over has been Solo, which I argue was released to soon after TLJ.

When you look at how the box office tracked for the Sequel Trilogy, TFA had the highest result (which is not unexpected), but then TLJ performed worse (which, again, is not unexpected for the middle movie), and then TRoS performed worse than TLJ. That shouldn't be the case at all. When you look at Marvel, you see a significant spike for Infinity War and Endgame. That is what you should expect to see. Unfortunately, that is not what we see with the Sequel Trilogy. However, at the same time as TRoS, The Mandalorian is the most in-demand streaming show in the world right now.

Generally what you would expect to see is a strong opening, a weak(er) middle, and a strong finish that is less strong than the beginning, but not too far off. Sometimes bigger than the beginning.

I do agree that it was too close to TLJ, but I believe we have different reasons for why we think that. I do not believe in "Star Wars Fatigue" it does not strike me as a likely possibility. Again, where is the "Marvel Fatigue"? I'm not seeing any. If the theory that people were just tired of Star Wars movies was true, wouldn't we see that with a franchise that releases multiple movies a year?

34 minutes ago, Seguleh said:

But could you guys please relax a bit more and try to read the context. Obviously pipolarJuice did not have a poll but was talking about his experience. Of course this experience is not statistically bulletproof, but no experience is.

A valid statistic that shows that a lot of people are not that satisfied with starwars is the dropping box office from star wars movies. Somehow every movie seems to attract less people than before. And the marvel movies show a different trend despite having even more movies in total and being from the same company.

Didn't ask for the source of Bipolarjuice's data (although the anecdote presented there is just that...anecdotal, and was met by contrary anecdotal data).

You, however, put hard numbers out there. Remember this?

1 hour ago, Seguleh said:

but if you take 1000 old fans and 1000 new fans under the 1000 old fans more are disliking the new movies.

Please provide the source of your data. Or you could always, y'know, admit that you just made it up.

41 minutes ago, Seguleh said:

Obviously pipolarJuice did not have a poll but was talking about his experience.

Obviously we weren’t talking about bipolarjuice’s post. We were talking about your poll consisting of several thousands of polled moviegoers.

8 minutes ago, DanteRotterdam said:

Obviously we weren’t talking about bipolarjuice’s post. We were talking about your poll consisting of several thousands of polled moviegoers.

I guess quoting the post that was being questioned didn't make that clear enough, eh?

16 minutes ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

Generally what you would expect to see is a strong opening, a weak(er) middle, and a strong finish that is less strong than the beginning, but not too far off. Sometimes bigger than the beginning.

It’s only been one week it’s to soon to say with TRoS, it’s on track to clear a billion.

19 minutes ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

I do agree that it was too close to TLJ, but I believe we have different reasons for why we think that. I do not believe in "Star Wars Fatigue" it does not strike me as a likely possibility. Again, where is the "Marvel Fatigue"? I'm not seeing any. If the theory that people were just tired of Star Wars movies was true, wouldn't we see that with a franchise that releases multiple movies a year?

It’s not Star Wars fatigue it was last Jedi fatigue. Also only about half the audience is interested the back story’s of old characters, a lot of people want new stories with new characters in universe.

9 minutes ago, Eoen said:

It’s only been one week it’s to soon to say with TRoS, it’s on track to clear a billion.

I was referring largely to opening weekend, and TRoS had a smaller opening weekend than the other two movies.

5 minutes ago, Eoen said:

It’s not Star Wars fatigue it was last Jedi fatigue. Also only about half the audience is interested the back story’s of old characters, a lot of people want new stories with new characters in universe.

I'd even go so far as to suggest that, rather than "Last Jedi fatigue," it's more a case of, "People Screaming Back and Forth Online About The Last Jedi" fatigue. For the past two years, the narrative of Star Wars fandom (and, by extension, Star Wars, period) has been the "division," when the loudest voices speaking out against TLJ/the direction of the franchise are people who chose to exaggerate dislike and division after discovering they could monetize it. Are there people who didn't like it? Of course. Are they within their rights to not have enjoyed it? Absolutely. Have some who did enjoy it behave just as badly as the troglodytes monetizing the "division?" Without a doubt.

Is the fan base really that fractured? I don't think so. But I do think that the vocal bickering among some have made the general public wary of being associated with the so-called "fandom."

11 minutes ago, Nytwyng said:

I guess quoting the post that was being questioned didn't make that clear enough, eh?

Perhaps the numbers he gave were a figure of speech referencing someone else's point, and perhaps you are being a little bit too literal.

3 minutes ago, Nytwyng said:

I'd even go so far as to suggest that, rather than "Last Jedi fatigue," it's more a case of, "People Screaming Back and Forth Online About The Last Jedi" fatigue. For the past two years, the narrative of Star Wars fandom (and, by extension, Star Wars, period) has been the "division," when the loudest voices speaking out against TLJ/the direction of the franchise are people who chose to exaggerate dislike and division after discovering they could monetize it. Are there people who didn't like it? Of course. Are they within their rights to not have enjoyed it? Absolutely. Have some who did enjoy it behave just as badly as the troglodytes monetizing the "division?" Without a doubt.

Is the fan base really that fractured? I don't think so. But I do think that the vocal bickering among some have made the general public wary of being associated with the so-called "fandom."

Star Wars has been weaponized by the alt-right in their fight against SJWs.

The last two years have been Trump years.

3 minutes ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

Perhaps the numbers he gave were a figure of speech referencing someone else's point, and perhaps you are being a little bit too literal.

Then he can say that. And can still present the source he's used to draw that conclusion. If it still boils down to, "Well, my friends and I like the old stuff and hate the new stuff," well...that and a buck will get you a drink at McDonalds. /shrug

3 minutes ago, Eoen said:

Star Wars has been weaponized by the alt-right in their fight against SJWs.

Sadly, a lot of fans of a lot of different pieces of entertainment are being weaponized for a variety of reasons these days. For example, recently a well-known singer of disposable pop songs weaponized her audience in a dispute against the current owners of the rights to some of her earlier songs.

2 hours ago, Seguleh said:

1) No sorry I have to disagree to most Points. My Friends and me disagree in a lot of other Things, from books we like or dislike, politics, Society and so on. So if all agree that we don't like These movies it is not because we are in a bubble. I think what Bipolar Juice said is quite accurate or a good hint.

2) I also disagree that the it would Limit creativity to stick what happened, on the contrary. Fantasy and SciFi universes live from their established laws, for example how fast you can travel, what is powerfull and so on. If you throw these rules out of the window, it just becomes what I would call lazy writing. The Canon/comon sense is not odd together, it fits together in this Frame. When the Canon/Fantasy universe gives u new rules of Physics, People should addept to it in this world and behave accordingly. As a small example: When Rey and Kylo fought about this Transporter, foce Lightning came out pf her Hands, destroying it. First of all force Lightning was afaik a high class ability that you had to master, not something u just do. Second, later in the movie the lightning just seemed to EMP the starships. Sure u can argue arround all thatm say that Lightning was different, and Rey is so good in the force jada jada, but it would have been enough to just squeeze that Transporter, and since they both pulled on it also more Fitting. Why there was the Lightning? Because it looked cooler.

3) To the Humor: did you guys really have to laugh when Poe made fun of Hux at the beginning of Episode 8? That hurt my brain.

4) And to the competent Evil guy: Yes, really! Have you ever had the Feeling of real threat through the first order? As soon as they Show up their super-duper-huge-wepaons get blown to pieces. In Episode 4 and 5 the heroes and the rebels really had to run from the empire. And it is not an inexperience of viewing or beeing blase or whatever, I rewatched the old movies last year and just thought: man 4 and 5 is really good, 6 is ok

5) I like to enjoy stuff, but just when it is good, it is not like I am searching for mistakes or a reason to be mad. But I just watch it and think: uff this again? another fakedeath? another xyz?

6) and why do you have to call the audience horrible and pre-teen? they just didint like it or thought it is funny, and it is to be honest.

1) This is yet again a workable example of the law of small numbers fallacy. But I'll leave it, if you want your faith in these irrelevant variances to matter, then so be it.

2) You're showign so many presuppositions here, that obviously comes from (table-top) roleplaying game, that it warrants a different kind of reply: If this is how you choose to run your game, sure, but that merely means that tRoS is in dissonance with your games and how you prefer to run games. Which is a completely different playing-field. It is irrelevant regarding the world and force powers and stories told in this storyverse. Getting caught up in game-mechanical-like stuff, when watching a film. Well. That speaks for itself.

3) That's a loaded and silly question. I'm sorry your brain hurt, I was luckily unharmed by that but to answer the spirit of your question: I'm not one who only laughs when forced to, I also laugh at silly things, like puns, dad-jokes, and more (like Mr. Bean). That this part carries weight, I find interesting. And weird. Really weird.

4) When I originally watched the films as a preteen, sure, I could agree that the Empire seemed like a threat, however today, not so much, they seem like silly, camp, evil-doers, hardly competent, but more lucky in their schemes and in-fighting. Pretty much like the FO. It's part-and-parcel of Star Wars, it is silly, camp, and fun.

5) This is what I referred to as blasé. I had the same after my initial one or two viewings of TFA, but then I thought: I can enjoy this, if I leave my pretentious and entitled consumerist behind by the door, and try to see it for what it is and what it is intended, rather than what I want, or think it should be. After that, things got a lot better. Sure, I can see holes and issues, but giving in to that **** is like giving in to the dark side, letting fear and hate control my emotions. If anything, Star Wars taught me that letting my emotions be controlled like that, isn't a good thing.

6) Because that's how I see such behaviour, because it is ... to be honest.

Okay Nytwyng and Danterotterdam, I thought it is obvious that this is not a poll I spoke of, I just tried to explain what I thought bipolarjuice ment, because I interpreted Nytwyngs post as if he is offended by what PipolarJuice said and that he wanted to proof him wrong. So I tried to explain it on big numbers because there are a lot of people that get statistics wrong. Never have I said that there is a poll or smth like that.

Back to the Topic: I think the release of SOLO in May was super odd. All star wars movies in the last year were released at the end of the year, somehow that movie just slipped by, actually I also was surprised when I saw that it is already in the Cinema and then I remembered "oh yeah, it was planned for may"

I also think it is really interesting how different countries have different numbers. In Germany the last movie had a really good start, in the US pretty good, in China it seems to flop hard

11 minutes ago, Seguleh said:

I also think it is really interesting how different countries have different numbers. In Germany the last movie had a really good start, in the US pretty good, in China it seems to flop hard.

Star Wars has traditionally had poor results in China, they don’t have nostalgia for the OT for one, also cultural differences.

You’d think they’d be all about a plucky midwestern rebelling against the English.

1 hour ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

When you look at how the box office tracked for the Sequel Trilogy, TFA had the highest result (which is not unexpected), but then TLJ performed worse (which, again, is not unexpected for the middle movie), and then TRoS performed worse than TLJ. That shouldn't be the case at all. When you look at Marvel, you see a significant spike for Infinity War and Endgame. That is what you should expect to see. Unfortunately, that is not what we see with the Sequel Trilogy. However, at the same time as TRoS, The Mandalorian is the most in-demand streaming show in the world right now.

Generally what you would expect to see is a strong opening, a weak(er) middle, and a strong finish that is less strong than the beginning, but not too far off. Sometimes bigger than the beginning.

I do agree that it was too close to TLJ, but I believe we have different reasons for why we think that. I do not believe in "Star Wars Fatigue" it does not strike me as a likely possibility. Again, where is the "Marvel Fatigue"? I'm not seeing any. If the theory that people were just tired of Star Wars movies was true, wouldn't we see that with a franchise that releases multiple movies a year?

Your first point is based on comparing the MCU with SW, which I believe is fallacious as a starting point when making assumptions regarding box office. But sure, I was surprised myself that ticket could be still bought for the premiere on the opening day over here. I blame incels and Jordan Peterson.... for no reason, just because I can.

Exactly the reason for this drop can only be speculated on, and while you choose to ignore or "not believe in" one explanation, that doesn't - luckily - invalidate that explanation. Phew! We dodged the bullet there!

And this is where the comparison between Marvel and Star Wars becomes more nuanced than: big franchise films, therefore they should show similar or identical trends. This is typical "jumping to conclusions" activity.

Their relationship to western culture, move-going audiences, cross-generational relevance and enjoyment (and more of course) enters into this, as well as, most simply: the Star Wars Saga is about a small group of main characters, a family some would say, whereas MCU has tons of characters, disposable villains, and lots of colours and fireworks, and funny quips. The MCU films - while following the same predictable and boring recipe - are (usually, so far) well made, entertaining, and instead of being bored by the same tropes, we are excited to see what variations they manage to shove into each instalment.

We have different expectations when going to see a Star Wars film than when going to see a Marvel film, generally, I would argue. Our relationship to both may, or may not, be similar or of a associated type, but they are different stories, different films, different characters, there are different stakes, different morals, and so on ad nauseam.

So, I'll concede that your comparison have some merit, but I do not agree with your "unbelief" in "Star Wars Fatigue" or whatever someone would like to call it. MCU films have been a frequent thing from early on, we expect them to come yearly or even more frequent, Star Wars have always been rare, and until this recent trilogy each film was released 3 years apart (OT: '77, '80, '83; PT: '99, '02, '05), compared to 2 years now - and then add in additional films in the same universe, in between. We are not used to new Star Wars (films) at such intervals.

Also, perhaps Star Wars on the big screen, and the morality play of the great evil versus the great good, is losing its appeal...

That is not to say that SW-Fatigue explains everything, but to claim that it is irrelevant by comparing it to a more recent and contemporary cultural force of nature, isn't a valid argument. Most likely, there's a truth to both, and perhaps even a third or fourth unidentified factor.

17 minutes ago, Seguleh said:

Okay Nytwyng and Danterotterdam, I thought it is obvious that this is not a poll I spoke of, I just tried to explain what I thought bipolarjuice ment, because I interpreted Nytwyngs post as if he is offended by what PipolarJuice said and that he wanted to proof him wrong.

Nope. Just meeting anecdotal evidence with anecdotal evidence.

17 minutes ago, Seguleh said:

So I tried to explain it on big numbers because there are a lot of people that get statistics wrong. Never have I said that there is a poll or smth like that.

So it meant absolutely nothing. Thanks for clearing that up.

18 minutes ago, Seguleh said:

Back to the Topic: I think the release of SOLO in May was super odd. All star wars movies in the last year were released at the end of the year, somehow that movie just slipped by, actually I also was surprised when I saw that it is already in the Cinema and then I remembered "oh yeah, it was planned for may"

I'm still not sure what to make of that decision. Prior to 2015, they'd all been released in May. I don't recall if it was TLJ or TRoS (along with Solo) that was going to be a return to that long-standing "tradition." The problem being, that a sister studio under the Disney banner now pretty much "owns" May. Solo wasn't helped by that sister studio's release from just a few weeks earlier not only meeting but surprisingly exceeding even the most optimistic predictions at the box office. While not the only factor, that's just one of a handful that contributed to underperformance by a movie that most who've seen it seem to generally enjoy. It wasn't life-changing, it wasn't genre-changing, but it was enjoyable enough.

23 minutes ago, Seguleh said:

I also think it is really interesting how different countries have different numbers. In Germany the last movie had a really good start, in the US pretty good, in China it seems to flop hard

Eoen already mentioned that Star Wars has never really performed well in China. I also wonder how much being a few days closer to Christmas Day (along with Thanksgiving, one of the two single largest movie-going days of the year in the US) might have impacted the weekend. May have been negligible, may have been close enough to cause a fair number ofpeople to assume heavy opening weekend crowds and decide to go on Wednesday.

Away put your political talk on our forums please. That is the way to the Dark Side.

Seriously, I come here for everything Star Wars and gaming specifically. Talk all you want about Star Wars politics, even reference real world politics when doing so occasionally, but please, please don't get into blatant political talk. Leave that far, far away in our own galaxy.