20 minutes ago, micheldebruyn said:They're specifically there to hunt marauders. A group of marauders shows up. I don't see what even can be 'suddenly' about this.
No difference between that and hunting deer. Just because you know something might be there doesn't mean you know where or when it will appear.
Plus, I'm quoting the OP, he used the word.
19 minutes ago, micheldebruyn said:Meh...
They're specifically there to hunt marauders. A group of marauders shows up. I don't see what even can be 'suddenly' about this.
They're looking for marauders, but they don't know exactly where they are. They're being Vigilant knowing they could be round any corner. As opposed to finding a good ambush spot, keeping their Cool and calmly waiting for the enemy to come to them.
13 minutes ago, Kualan said:They're looking for marauders, but they don't know exactly where they are. They're being Vigilant knowing they could be round any corner. As opposed to finding a good ambush spot, keeping their Cool and calmly waiting for the enemy to come to them.
Thanks, this is actually best description. Now I understand.
Still unnecessery overcomplication in initiative system compare to other RPGs but now I understand how it works...
When it's questionable on which skill can be used, I have a house-rule that I allow players to pick. It hasn't destroyed our games just yet.
47 minutes ago, kaosoe said:When it's questionable on which skill can be used...
I've not had a situation like that, it always seems obvious. I rather like the distinction too, I think it adds flavour to a character. You can have a survivalist type who can practically smell and ambush coming (high Vigilance), but when doing his own ambush he farts and giggles (low Cool).
4 minutes ago, whafrog said:I've not had a situation like that, it always seems obvious. I rather like the distinction too, I think it adds flavour to a character. You can have a survivalist type who can practically smell and ambush coming (high Vigilance), but when doing his own ambush he farts and giggles (low Cool).
To each their own. Usually it's pretty clear when one is more applicable than the other, but when we first started playing, my players would buck when I called for initiative using a specific skill. While I explained to them why it was one skill over the other, I also relaxed a little and would sometimes call for their choice.
1 hour ago, Benny89 said:Thanks, this is actually best description. Now I understand.
Still unnecessery overcomplication in initiative system compare to other RPGs but now I understand how it works...
Pathfinder 2 made initiative a bit more difficult as well. Everyone uses Perception...unless a better skill fits.
Rogue sneaking up on the target, use Stealth as initiative. Hiding in the rafters planning on leaping down on unsuspecting target, use either Stealth or Acrobatics. Making a surprise attack during a negotiation, use Deception.
5 minutes ago, Varlie said:Pathfinder 2 made initiative a bit more difficult as well. Everyone uses Perception...unless a better skill fits.
Rogue sneaking up on the target, use Stealth as initiative. Hiding in the rafters planning on leaping down on unsuspecting target, use either Stealth or Acrobatics. Making a surprise attack during a negotiation, use Deception.
Jesus, that's over the top :D. I prefer solutions in systems where initiative is simple dice roll (and bonus from Reflex/Agility/Dex whatever the "speed" stat is) or draw a card (higher card - goes faster). Simple, elegant and no need for mechanical complications.
Edited by Benny89Just because a character is alert doesn't mean he has good vigilance.
You ever see a really jumpy individual? They are super alert, but they aren't hard to surprise, in fact, quite the opposite. They are easy to sneak up on, and they react poorly when surprised (scream, physically jump, spin around wildly, run away).
It's like watching a scary horror movie. You can tell by the scene and the music that something scary is going to happen, so you tense up, expecting the scare. Your reaction is actually greater this way. If he's constantly high strung, I'd argue he's likely to make mistakes. Paranoid people rarely make good guards. They think everyone is out to get them and they start to project their thoughts onto others. The guy is likely to be really concerned about an innocent group at at a table in a dark corner more so than a group of mercs walking up to his table with guns out.
Sure, he's sitting in the bar, super tense, ready for a fight...but what is he actually looking at? The bar, the front door, the back door, the band? Have the event that requires the roll to come from an area he's not watching....or if he says he constantly surveying the entire place, then the event happens when he's looking away from that area. If he fights you on the issue, then upgrade his first check with a red die every combat encounter. A bad enough roll and oops, he freaked out and shot an innocent bystander because he just reacted without thought due to his hyper-vigilance.
So to sum up.
A. Make the player play by the rules.
B. If he fights this, make him declare what he's focusing on and then use cool if he predicts the threat, or vigilance otherwise.
c. If he fights that, upgrade to red dice and put people in danger due to his behavior.
44 minutes ago, kaosoe said:but when we first started playing, my players would buck when I called for initiative using a specific skill.
My players don't buck, because they don't know the rules...
I'm not gonna read through all of this, but my take from the first post would be this:
A character that's "always ready for combat" is a character with a very high score in Vigilance.
NOT a character that just gets to roll Cool whenever there's an ambush because "he's ready for it".
That's not how ambushes work.
4 hours ago, whafrog said:My players don't buck, because they don't know the rules...
Neither do mine
You're players have the advantage of worldly experience. But I'm getting mine there.
Sorry if this comes across as dismissive but, it's just initiative , it isn't that big a deal.
Most of the time, I just let my players roll whichever skill is better. Heck, I even had one player ask if he could use perception for his initiative because that's the skill he was use to from whatever system he came from. The other players didn't mind so I let him do it.
If you look in the back of the core rule books, there are alternate types of initiative rules, one of which you just roll once at the start of the session and never roll again if I'm remembering correctly.
I can understand wanting to make sure you are doing it right, and that you understand the skills and all, but don't get to hung up on it if initiative is the only point of confusion. If your player wants to roll Cool, and the other players don't care, run with it and have fun gaming.
A rule of thumb I use when I GM is "If you've been able to observe your opposition for about one turn before combat starts, roll Cool. Otherwise, Vigilance."
You could also make him roll Perception or Vigilance before initiative to know if he actually noticed the threat. If he does he uses Cool, otherwise he must roll Vigilance.
Maybe not all the time (or decide on a passive Perception/Vigilance criteria) but it may let him know that being constantly aware is hard and may fail.
That's what I do at my tables and it is accepted without question by players.
1 hour ago, penpenpen said:A rule of thumb I use when I GM is "If you've been able to observe your opposition for about one turn before combat starts, roll Cool. Otherwise, Vigilance."
This is basically what I use as well. If you knew you were going to be fighting them before they pulled their weapon, Cool. If you didn't know until after, Vigilance.
5 hours ago, penpenpen said:A rule of thumb I use when I GM is "If you've been able to observe your opposition for about one turn before combat starts, roll Cool. Otherwise, Vigilance."
Yeah. Cool is about keeping your, well, cool and waiting for the right moment to strike. Vigilance is about your reaction speed and how prepared you are to adjust to changes.
Vigilance vs Perception can be another hard one but if you think about Vigilance as reacting to changes it's easier to see the lines.
To the OP's complaint about two skills being unnecessarily complicated: It's about game balance. If you reduce everything to one skill or the other, you make Presence and/or Willpower less useful.
I also agree with the consensus here that your paranoid merc should be rolling Vigilance most of the time. Cool is only appropriate if he's starting something rather than reacting to something.
6 hours ago, SavageBob said:If you reduce everything to one skill or the other, you make Presence and/or Willpower less useful.
That, and you'll have to houserule some talents.
Cool is the skill you use in a shootout at high noon, when bushwhacking an enemy, or when Han shot first.
Vigilance is what you use on guard duty, or scoping out a room, or to notice Han drawing his blaster when your threatening him.
Both skills are also useful for other situations.
Edited by Eoen1 hour ago, Eoen said:Han shot first
and last.
On 12/17/2019 at 4:19 AM, Benny89 said:Also if I have combat character in party who fully expects fight everywhere (he is veteran merc and always armed) - he should for Cool mostly as he roleplays that he is ready for combat because he doesn't trust anyone till he gets credits.
I would let him do that if he wanted. Yes, you can have your guard up 24/7, go right ahead.
I would then start adding blacks to every roll, because that level of diligence will start to wear on ANYONE after a while.
Edited by Desslok44 minutes ago, Desslok said:I would let him do that if he wanted. Yes, you can have your guard up 24/7, go right ahead.
I would then start adding blacks to every roll, because that level of diligence will start to wear on ANYONE after a while.
In real life, I have seen professional nurses working long (12+h) shifts making far more mistakes beyond the first half of their shifts. As a manager I've had to do RCAs, and fatigue is a massive contributor when so much is focused upon constant vigilance (to alarms, patient behavioral responses, changing physical conditions, etc.). It's too bad the system is stuck on 2x12h shifts rather than 3x8h shifts to cover the day, but it's so hardcoded into health care these days that neither the administration nor the nurses (and allied health professionals) want it any other way. Sadly, the 12h shifts don't benefit the patients when the added risks of fatigue come into play.
7 minutes ago, HappyDaze said:focused upon constant vigilance
This is the key right here. He is staying Vigilant for something to jump out. If this is how he wants to play his character, he should invest in a high Vigilance, not a high Cool.
12 hours ago, HappyDaze said:In real life, I have seen professional nurses working long (12+h) shifts making far more mistakes beyond the first half of their shifts. As a manager I've had to do RCAs, and fatigue is a massive contributor when so much is focused upon constant vigilance (to alarms, patient behavioral responses, changing physical conditions, etc.). It's too bad the system is stuck on 2x12h shifts rather than 3x8h shifts to cover the day, but it's so hardcoded into health care these days that neither the administration nor the nurses (and allied health professionals) want it any other way. Sadly, the 12h shifts don't benefit the patients when the added risks of fatigue come into play.
I can totally believe that. I used to work at Electronic Arts doing QA - this was back 1998-2001 ish - and when the projects were wrapping up, we had to do mandatory overtime, 80-ish hours in a week. You could totally see the productivity drop off come hour 10 or so. Even with breaks and meals and "F it, I just have to get away from the computer for a bit", you'd still finish out the day nearly comatose come Friday.