Makashi/Niman.

Like said above you can use Presence for your saber attacks and for face abilities with Makashi or use Willpower from Niman for another favour.

Sense Emotions for an additional boost on social checks.

Up to 3 ranks of defensive training.

3 ranks of Reflect.

8 ranks of Parry and Improved Parry.

Makashi Finish/Flourish, Centre of Being, and Draw Closer skills.

Sum Djem to take your opponents weapons and Resist Disarm to keep yours.

28 minutes ago, EliasWindrider said:

Here's the reason WHY @Tramp Graphics argument is BS

While starting as a padawan/teenager is A valid place to start a jedi's story, it is not the only valid place to start their story, e.g. we don't see mace windu or yoda, or... (actually most jedi) as padawans on screen.

To put a finer point on it, why can a soldier's story start with him/her being a "commando" but a jedi's story can only start with him/her being a juvenile? No other career choice in the game has that restriction. (While clones are younger chronologically, they are still adults)

Moreover, why are people being so literal with spec names? A jedi career and "knight" spec could represent a sith apprentice or a jedi padawan. Based on what we see onscreen in TPM, obiwan's capabilities seem to be closer to a jedi:knight (spec) with a few hundred xp rather than the padawan spec, even though he hadn't been "knighted" yet in universe.

Regardless of whether the padawan spec has some "really good talents", a player might not want to take it. For example my current favorite 3 spec jedi build is jedi:knight/niman-disciple/padawan-survivor. The padawan survivor tree has the same layout as padawan and some of the talents are the same, but I'd much rather have constant vigilance and the secrets of the jedi and improved talents than the padawan's interesting talents. Of course you can't start with padawan survivor as a first spec because it's a universal. However taking padawan and padawan survivor is largely (not completely) redundant

Only if the GM allows it. One should not assume the GM will allow it. You can ONLY start in Knight if you are Force rating 2. And you can only use quick path to power IF the GM allows it.

22 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

Only if the GM allows it. One should not assume the GM will allow it. You can ONLY start in Knight if you are Force rating 2. And you can only use quick path to power IF the GM allows it.

You do know that the GM can disallow anything, right? Be it the force, or FaD specs, or cortosis, etc...? I personally disallow the croc gonzati, and any gear that bypasses parry (e.g. the flickerphase blade attachment), I also house rule the the crossgaurd lightsaber crafting upgrade, because it's to powerful as written in my opinion. However, that's not the point.

The point is that contrary to @Tramp Graphics assertion... as a juvenile/padawan is not the only valid way for a jedi's story to start/be told. He obviously should get to tell his character's origins in the manner her prefers , but everyone else deserves the same consideration, and if they prefer something different than he does that does not make them wrong. It's his exclusivity claims I take issue with.

3 hours ago, EliasWindrider said:

You do know that the GM can disallow anything, right? Be it the force, or FaD specs, or cortosis, etc...? I personally disallow the croc gonzati, and any gear that bypasses parry (e.g. the flickerphase blade attachment), I also house rule the the crossgaurd lightsaber crafting upgrade, because it's to powerful as written in my opinion. However, that's not the point.

The point is that contrary to @Tramp Graphics assertion... as a juvenile/padawan is not the only valid way for a jedi's story to start/be told. He obviously should get to tell his character's origins in the manner her prefers , but everyone else deserves the same consideration, and if they prefer something different than he does that does not make them wrong. It's his exclusivity claims I take issue with.

The padawan is the only valid way to.get to the knight spec in the jedi career. Yes there is an optional rule. But it is an opt ill onal rule that you need to clear with the GM first. And until the gm says go for.it advice should start with RAW

1 hour ago, Daeglan said:

The padawan is the only valid way to.get to the knight spec in the jedi career. Yes there is an optional rule. But it is an opt ill onal rule that you need to clear with the GM first. And until the gm says go for.it advice should start with RAW

Most of what I just quoted is patently false. RAW means it appears in an officially licensed ffg star wars rpg product. Yes you need to clear it with the GM, but you need to clear everything to make sure it fits in the campaign, so no real difference there. As for not being intended as a primary mechanic, which you are clearly implying, Collapse of the republic, and rise of the separatists are meant to be able to stand on their own. Collapse of the republic has the jedi general (fr2 prerequisite), and the signature ability, if someone has cotr but not rots the only way for them to use peerless interception, is to start in jedi general, which can only happen with the quick path to power rule. You of course get more benefit if you use the two books together, but it nonetheless demonstrates that the quick path to power rule was intended as a primary mechanic. It's about as optional as the knight level rule in the FaD core book. It's not appropriate to every campaign but it's not outlandish by any stretch of the imagination.

8 hours ago, EliasWindrider said:

Most of what I just quoted is patently false. RAW means it appears in an officially licensed ffg star wars rpg product. Yes you need to clear it with the GM, but you need to clear everything to make sure it fits in the campaign, so no real difference there. As for not being intended as a primary mechanic, which you are clearly implying, Collapse of the republic, and rise of the separatists are meant to be able to stand on their own. Collapse of the republic has the jedi general (fr2 prerequisite), and the signature ability, if someone has cotr but not rots the only way for them to use peerless interception, is to start in jedi general, which can only happen with the quick path to power rule. You of course get more benefit if you use the two books together, but it nonetheless demonstrates that the quick path to power rule was intended as a primary mechanic. It's about as optional as the knight level rule in the FaD core book. It's not appropriate to every campaign but it's not outlandish by any stretch of the imagination.

No it is meant as an optional rule as it says so. Specifically so you can use collapse by itself.

I was thinking about somehow going Ataru+Artisan, does this sound bad? Maybe get Ebb&Flow or Sense?

5 hours ago, Daeglan said:

No it is meant as an optional rule as it says so. Specifically so you can use collapse by itself.

1) that (bolded part) doesn't make it any less mainstream

2) Exactly like how "knight level" starting xp is an "optional" rule (and I've only played in one game where we didn't start with knight level or higher xp, and no game I've gm'd hasn't).

3) Since you're supposed to clear everything with the GM, it's not functionally any different than anything else. It's simply a line item acknowledgement that some GMs might not want want to use it in some campaigns

4) That doesn't make it any less RAW

Naturally if the GM thinks starting knight is unbalancing, that's a very good reasons to disallow it. But starting with knight and knight level xp isn't a big power difference from starting in Padawan with knight level xp. You'd begin play with fr2 either way, and the padawan would have one extra attribute boosted.

3 minutes ago, daggertx said:

I was thinking about somehow going Ataru+Artisan, does this sound bad? Maybe get Ebb&Flow or Sense?

You might want to try ataru+padawan survivor, the secrets of the jedi + improved talents make it the single best spec at crafting/nodding lightsabers, it's the "only" way to get all the mods on many crystals. Otherwise you need to flip a destiny point just to be able to make the 5 purple "impossible" difficulty check.

8 minutes ago, EliasWindrider said:

You might want to try ataru+padawan survivor, the secrets of the jedi + improved talents make it the single best spec at crafting/nodding lightsabers, it's the "only" way to get all the mods on many crystals. Otherwise you need to flip a destiny point just to be able to make the 5 purple "impossible" difficulty check.

Better than Artisan or Armorer?

1 minute ago, daggertx said:

Better than Artisan or Armorer?

Yes, but only at crafting/modding lightsabers, base secrets of the jedi applies to crafting and I think repairing, improved applies to modding. They decrease the difficulty by 1/2 ranks in lore round (the decrease) up, to a minimum of easy. Since base difficulty to mod an attachment is 3 purple (and the difficulty increases with every successful mod), assuming 5 ranks in lore the first 2 mods will be at 1 purple, then the difficulty increase by one per mod. After the 6th successful mod you need to flip a dp and make a 5 purple check. This is compared to be able to mod the crystal 3 times before flipping dp to make impossible checks.

10 minutes ago, EliasWindrider said:

Yes, but only at crafting/modding lightsabers, base secrets of the jedi applies to crafting and I think repairing, improved applies to modding. They decrease the difficulty by 1/2 ranks in lore round (the decrease) up, to a minimum of easy. Since base difficulty to mod an attachment is 3 purple (and the difficulty increases with every successful mod), assuming 5 ranks in lore the first 2 mods will be at 1 purple, then the difficulty increase by one per mod. After the 6th successful mod you need to flip a dp and make a 5 purple check. This is compared to be able to mod the crystal 3 times before flipping dp to make impossible checks.

The max I could get from those would be FR1 though correct? Any suggestions?

Or I guess I would be FR2.

2 hours ago, daggertx said:

The max I could get from those would be FR1 though correct? Any suggestions?

Fr 1 from each, yes. You could do niman-disciple/padawan-survivor. Niman-disciple is the second best lightsaber form offensively, and the best defensively (adding setback is more advantageous than upgrading dice from purple to red in terms of success/failure rate, and compared to defensive stance it doesn't cost a maneuver), it's also the only lightsaber form spec that with a fr talent so you can get fr 3 between those 2 specs. Also the constant vigilance talent in padawan survivor let's you always use vigilance for initiative and since willpower is the most important stat for niman-disciple it will help your initiative check.

2 hours ago, EliasWindrider said:

1) that (bolded part) doesn't make it any less mainstream

2) Exactly like how "knight level" starting xp is an "optional" rule (and I've only played in one game where we didn't start with knight level or higher xp, and no game I've gm'd hasn't).

3) Since you're supposed to clear everything with the GM, it's not functionally any different than anything else. It's simply a line item acknowledgement that some GMs might not want want to use it in some campaigns

4) That doesn't make it any less RAW

Naturally if the GM thinks starting knight is unbalancing, that's a very good reasons to disallow it. But starting with knight and knight level xp isn't a big power difference from starting in Padawan with knight level xp. You'd begin play with fr2 either way, and the padawan would have one extra attribute boosted.

Collapse of the Republic specifically says that the Quick Path to Power rule is OPTIONAL . The GM does not need to allow it. And I didn’t say that making a player start out as an adolescent was the only way to go. I simply said that as a GM, I want players to actually earn that second Force Rating by going through the appropriate talent tree. That can be through starting out as a Padawan or through starting out in another career . And even with the Padawan spec as a character’s starting spec, that doesn’t necessarily mean that the character is an adolescent. Obi Wan was 25 in TPM and was still a Padawan.

14 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Collapse of the Republic specifically says that the Quick Path to Power rule is OPTIONAL . The GM does not need to allow it. And I didn’t say that making a player start out as an adolescent was the only way to go. I simply said that as a GM, I want players to actually earn that second Force Rating by going through the appropriate talent tree. That can be through starting out as a Padawan or through starting out in another career . And even with the Padawan spec as a character’s starting spec, that doesn’t necessarily mean that the character is an adolescent. Obi Wan was 25 in TPM and was still a Padawan.

First off you didn't say "I want" you said "should" meaning the correct way.

Second, everything outside the core book is explicitly optional

Third as for being non-literal it goes both ways, obiwan's capabilities in tpm are more consistent with the knight spec than the padawan spec even though he hadn't been knighted in universe yet.

Fourth, the problem from the build only perspective is it ties the peerless interception signature ability to the padawan spec when the knight spec is the only jedi spec that can make full use of it.

10 minutes ago, EliasWindrider said:

First off you didn't say "I want" you said "should" meaning the correct way.

Second, everything outside the core book is explicitly optional

Third as for being non-literal it goes both ways, obiwan's capabilities in tpm are more consistent with the knight spec than the padawan spec even though he hadn't been knighted in universe yet.

I said I feel that they should earn it. That is my personal opinion on the matter, and how I would rule it as a GM. When you GM you can run it the way you want. I would not allow it as a GM.

Just now, Tramp Graphics said:

I said I feel that they should earn it. That is my personal opinion on the matter, and how I would rule it as a GM. When you GM you can run it the way you want. I would not allow it as a GM.

No you did not say feel , unless you went back to edit it post facto. You typically express your opinions as the only right way to do things.

On 12/20/2019 at 1:54 PM, Tramp Graphics said:

Why not? simple. Becoming a full fledged Jedi knight is something a character should earn . The same with becoming a Master. That means paying their dues through the training and/or experience by working down the talent tree in order to get to that additional Force rating required to take those specs. So, if the player wanted to play the Jedi career, start out as a Padawan, as is proper for Jedi. If I were specifically doing a Knight level campaign? Sure. If the Knight Level character puts in enough of that XP into his or her first spec's talent tree to get down to the necessary Force rating talent, then sure, take the Knight spec. as a second spec.

Here's your post... you did not say feel.

More to the point.

If a GM isn't using the knight level xp rule, then there's a good power balance argument to made for not using the quick path to power. If you are using knight level xp, that seriously undercuts the power balance argument because jedi padawan would also start with fr 2 and have one more attribute raised. At that point, it's a rather arbitrary "because I said so, my preference is the only right way" constraint, the kind that you're known for, the reason I took issue with you expressing your "opinion" as the only right way to do things.

The key point is that the Quick Path rule really isn’t for Knight level characters anyway. It’s to allow Starting level characters to start out as fully fledged Knights. If you’re playing Knight level then a good portion of that extra 150 XP is likely To go into talents, and as such, you can easily get to that Force Rating simply by buying down the tree. Either way, you don’t need the Quick Path in order to get the necessary Force Rating. Spend the XP to buy down the talent tree and buy Knight as a second Spec. That is my ruling as a GM. When you GM, you can run it as you want. I won’t allow the Quick Path rule because it wreaks of Power gaming , and I wholly support the OP’s GM for not allowing it as well.

31 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

The key point is that the Quick Path rule really isn’t for Knight level characters anyway. It’s to allow Starting level characters to start out as fully fledged Knights.

Both of these sentences are extremely odd/contrary to what I would call common sense.

From a build perspective, after purchasing a few force power and a handful of upgrades each, knight level xp isn't sufficient to start as a "fully fledged knight" without also using the quick path to power rule to start in knight. I'm not saying you couldn't build an equally powerful character, they just wouldn't have the particular set/breadth of capabilities of a fully fledged jedi knight.

If a GM doesn't want his players to start as fully fledged knights, that's a perfectly legitimate position, but if they're ok with their PCs starting as fully fledged knights, why force them to start in padawan?

the problem from the build only perspective is it ties the peerless interception signature ability to the padawan spec when the knight spec is the only jedi spec that can make full use of it. That's just a mechanically very "odd" constraint for a GM who is ok with his/her players starting as "fully fledged knights."

For the record I'm using "fully fledged knight" to mean "was just knighted" not "veteran"

3 hours ago, EliasWindrider said:

Both of these sentences are extremely odd/contrary to what I would call common sense.

From a build perspective, after purchasing a few force power and a handful of upgrades each, knight level xp isn't sufficient to start as a "fully fledged knight" without also using the quick path to power rule to start in knight. I'm not saying you couldn't build an equally powerful character, they just wouldn't have the particular set/breadth of capabilities of a fully fledged jedi knight.

If a GM doesn't want his players to start as fully fledged knights, that's a perfectly legitimate position, but if they're ok with their PCs starting as fully fledged knights, why force them to start in padawan?

the problem from the build only perspective is it ties the peerless interception signature ability to the padawan spec when the knight spec is the only jedi spec that can make full use of it. That's just a mechanically very "odd" constraint for a GM who is ok with his/her players starting as "fully fledged knights."

For the record I'm using "fully fledged knight" to mean "was just knighted" not "veteran"

It make perfect sense. Quick path to power is for making jedi general and knight characters using 1 spec and starting xp. Not for using knight level rules with the 150xp and 9k creds.

1 hour ago, Daeglan said:

It make perfect sense. Quick path to power is for making jedi general and knight characters using 1 spec and starting xp. Not for using knight level rules with the 150xp and 9k creds.

it's not +9K it's +9K OR a basic lightsaber.

Just so we're clear are you saying that your position is that the designers intent behind the quick path to power was so that players could start as an actual a jedi knight/general without a lightsaber?

and to debunk the "there is a difference in power level between knight level padawan and knight level knight with quick path to power" argument.

https://www.mediafire.com/file/94awa6ahei4x9l0/KnightLevelPadawan.pdf/file

https://www.mediafire.com/file/qhem88idepm73fb/KnightLevelKnight.pdf/file

Thenquick path to power is so a starting character can start the game with the required force rating of 2 needed to.use the jedi general as a starting character with assumption you may not has rise of the seperatists. So is a character wanted to start wirh the jedi career they need a method to get force rating 2. It also says it represents a jedi whose training was cut short. Ie a properly trained jedi goes through padawan and would be best represented using the knight level rules. Per page page 54 they can spend 2500 credits to get a lightsaber. Which is well with in starting characters fund availability. So no i am not suggesting they start with out a lightsaber.

I am not sure why you are obsessed with only using 2 specs to get a jedi. When it seems like 3 makes more sense. Padawan +Knight+saber form

5 hours ago, Daeglan said:

The quick path to power is so a starting character can start the game with the required force rating of 2 needed to.use the jedi general as a starting character with assumption you may not has rise of the separatists.

This was confirmed to be the case by the lead writer on the O66 podcast episode discussing Collapse of the Republic as being the intent of that sidebar. It's there so that if one or more players want to use the Jedi career, they don't have to all start out with the Padawan spec. And as you've said, is a suggested option that the GM can use or not use at their discretion.

3 hours ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

This was confirmed to be the case by the lead writer on the O66 podcast episode discussing Collapse of the Republic as being the intent of that sidebar. It's there so that if one or more players want to use the Jedi career, they don't have to all start out with the Padawan spec. And as you've said, is a suggested option that the GM can use or not use at their discretion.

Your post seems to lend support to both sides of the debate (for example the bolded bit). I completely agree that it's at the GM's discretion, but then again so is using anything outside the core book, and so is the knight level rules in the core book. So it being an optional rule does not mean it's any less "RAW". The point is that using this optional rule is not "wrong" or an "invalid" way to qualify for the knight level spec as seems to be the contention of @Daeglan .