Full House!!

(38) Tempest Squadron Pilot [TIE Advanced x1]
(2) Fire-Control System
Points: 40

(38) Tempest Squadron Pilot [TIE Advanced x1]
(2) Fire-Control System
Points: 40

(38) Tempest Squadron Pilot [TIE Advanced x1]
(2) Fire-Control System
Points: 40

(35) Inquisitor [TIE Advanced v1]
(5) Cluster Missiles
Points: 40

(35) Inquisitor [TIE Advanced v1]
(5) Cluster Missiles
Points: 40

Total points: 200

Seems quite probably rubbish? Possibly is, I don't really know. Didn't expect a lot from it but it seems like it might actually have a few legs.

I mean, bottom line, joust the bloody doors off. But it doesn't really work like that. Against most lists, dice just whiff fully in their favour.

Play cagey... Yeah, it's not that unpredictable.

But.

5 arcs with mod+repo is good initial coverage. 3ag and focus pulls ships along. 2x red dice add up.

And then when it gets stretched, the Inquisitors still are not dead and still chipping, 1 lone x1 comes in with lock plus focus, thing is deleted. More locks are acquired, more things are deleted.

It looked improbable and got kinda kinda sticky. But actually only gave up 80pt before everything evaporated.

Huh.

Actual just as common reality, some fortunate green dice kept a 20pt win margin safe on some random half point dice punt.

3ag ft -lucky- w.

It's not at all easy to fly. Like, at all. Lock selection is so many kinds of problematic. A cheap x1 sacrifice early on, seems maybe necessary, to help set up the other 2 x1 attack runs. Ideally, they go for evading Inqs hiding behind a rock like cowards, so the x1s can just roll in and delete. People do that. They're just so tempting. Then it's pretty easy.

v1 goes where it wants ofc, but the x1 dial/repo is not subtle. It can go fast or very slow though, which is all kinds of good for a basic fighter, so it's still a good tool with a lot of options. Focus>Roll is neat.

Inqs are great blockers. x1s are really good hammers. It all starts to add up.... in my head. Translating it to the table is actually quite deep and tricky.

Points change, FCS likely goes, but Clusters are possibly only good fun and not actually necessary. Though they do solid work and can be pretty scary, unwatched.

Storm Squaddies for matching Init would be really nice. Passive is good.

Chonky lists like this are definitely a thing. I feel pretty good about putting this up against a rejigged meta.

I'm probably always going to be somewhat skeptical of low-init Lock based lists without tools to get locks, and without strong disengage potential.

But mass /x1 can be surprisingly tanky, particularly against 2 dice attacks. There's variance, but there's massive potential upside.

I've experimented a little with 4 Tempests + Howlrunner. Rerolls mean that you might actually mount an offense on the approach while just focused. Maybe swapping a pair of v1s into my old list would work... upgrade the 2 remaining Tempests to Storms and add Crack Shot... Swarm Tactics or Crack Shot Howlrunner... Might have to fly it sometime.

//

Anyhow, back to your topic... if Clusters missiles are more fun than necessary... 2 Inquisitors, and 3 Storms with Passive Sensors? That'd need table time to see if Passives are better than FCS/Crack Shot. I could see it go either way. The defenses of the x1 aren't quite as strong if they've charged up their Locks instead of Focusing. The one in front focuses, but the ones in back Passive Sensors, so that your opponent has to either attack the token one, or attack the Range 3 one?

36 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

The one in front focuses, but the ones in back Passive Sensors, so that your opponent has to either attack the token one, or attack the Range 3 one?

Kinda. I mostly aim to spread them a little, so 1 or 2 are maybe out of arc and can semi-safely lock. R3 and obstacles are big friends to the ones not in the obvious firing line.

I try to get a tag team thing going, focus by default and lock by turns. But honestly, 5hp and 3ag, with the 5 ship redundancy, means a lot of the time I can look at what might shoot me and then just lock if it seems like I won't die from it.

Taking 3/4 damage on one of the x1s, flying away, re-locking and coming back to murder something has been a pretty valid tactic. Risky, but not as risky as I thought it would be.

Low Init locks are obviously really awkward, but only if you're looking for a strong joust. This list can do that, but it's not where the real power is. Suck them in, focus, killbox, disengage in part for a smattering of lock action, shift the box for a very murderous return.

The hardest thing is genuinely who you lock, rather than if.

Had 2 of them lock Tallie, against a 4x Resi list. Yep, the one ship in his list who could just go nope, now I'm way over here. Caught her eventually, but it was a few wasted turns of limp fire elsewhere.

I am curious if FCS is as important as I initially thought it was. It can be great, Talon Rolls, K-Turns and yoloing obstacles are all vital moves, but I find myself having to spend the lock an awful lot anyway. Maybe I need new dice.

One of the things with Cluster Inqs, rather than shifting those points to the x1s is that, with the missiles, people don't want to ignore them and can get punked by them if they do. I don't really want the x1s to be an obvious go-to target instead, feels fairly 50/50 atm. So Clusters do seem to be doing a decent job so far, even if I'm not spending the charges early. Threat balance can definitely make x1 lock acquisition a little easier as well.

A further point on Passives, which I've forgotten to verbalize. What appeals is not so much the ability to lock when higher Init move into range, but the ability to pick your target before firing.

If you're throwing upwards of 20 red dice with locks, you don't really know if the last couple of ships will even have a target, let alone who it is. It's an issue

I'd be tempted to toss Jendon in there instead of the Inquisitors, get free tls before the joust even begins.

Jendon and 4 /x1 would probably be a fun list to play around with.

Yeah, it would be. But it would also be very much something else entirely

4 PS Tempests and Del Meeko could be interesting as an exercise in survivability

You can drop the FCS and clusters to sub SNR for the Inquisitors. That keeps the boat, but it may not survive January points.

Bumping Tempest up to Storm and Inqs down to (gasp!) Barons, you'll have all I3's and can season to taste with passive/FCS/crack/predator.

11 hours ago, Greebwahn said:

4 PS Tempests and Del Meeko could be interesting as an exercise in survivability

Could be. I would fear the desperate race to land some damage cards before he gets popped though

6 hours ago, thebrettski said:

You can drop the FCS and clusters to sub SNR for the Inquisitors. That keeps the boat, but it may not survive January points.

Bumping Tempest up to Storm and Inqs down to (gasp!) Barons, you'll have all I3's and can season to taste with passive/FCS/crack/predator.

SNR is tremendous but after a couple sim games with no FCS, I missed it hugely and decided I absolutely don't want to drop it. Unless for PS. It just really helps with planning turnarounds.

Also very much thinking about the list now with Inqs priced 2 or 3pt higher. Heightened Perception fits if they go up 2pt, which may be an interesting twist and a useful tool.

The Baron.... ah, the lowly Baron. I did actually consider them for all of 1 second when I was shuffling the other day. But force + evade/lock is just so good. However, you've awakened an idea.

3 FCS Storms fit with 2 Cluster Barons, neither are likely to go up....

Here's the thing. That force flex is good for a number of extra hits/evades, which keeps them ticking and threatening. But upgrading to Storms for that sweet matching Init, ability to simul fire at I3 and kill at I2, may just be enough to swing a little extra damage/survivability in the games where its needed.

Equally, the more I think about the squad balance, the more I think the Cluster threat is needed and the less I want to drop it.

Low ship count lists are not a big factor in that thinking. There is enough guns and coverage, you'll never double tap aces anyway. But against 4+ ships, it possibly needs that extra hit potential from either wing. With Stormies, the Barons may not be quite so vital in the late game and can maybe afford to be part of a decent trade.

I'm definitely gonna try The Storm Barons next time out.

Though everyone being worth 40pt is surprisingly great, it's a shame to lose that

The issue with the Baron of the Empire is that there's no Talent the Baron could possibly take that's worth more than spending 3 points to get a force charge. I'd suspect they aren't really too bad a ship, and if someone had to take Barons instead of Inquisitors in a list which had Inqs, it'd be worse but not abject trash. But why fly something worse for no reason?

4 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

The issue with the Baron of the Empire is that there's no Talent the Baron could possibly take that's worth more than spending 3 points to get a force charge. I'd suspect they aren't really too bad a ship, and if someone had to take Barons instead of Inquisitors in a list which had Inqs, it'd be worse but not abject trash. But why fly something worse for no reason?

Because craziness

The Baron is absolutely terrible value compared to the Inq. The force point alone is obviously great, but it dovetails so well with the action bar and all the lovely missiles.

Inqs can go up 5pt and still be far better value than the Barons.

There is ZERO reason to ever touch a Baron at a ridiculous 3pt less. Which is why Tempests in the OP list. Otherwise I would have considered Storms and Barons for more than that initial 1 second and possibly even run with it.

But the Inqs are definitely going up. I really like the basic building blocks here. So I might have to get used to Barons if I feel Clusters matter more than Force...

They may well not, but there's only one way to really find out and the best thing in X Wing is taking something deemed inescapably rubbish and getting it to tick. Even if only a little bit

As an aside, I play regularly with my boy at home. He doesn't have sophisticated tactics, but he has many surprises up his sleeve. He has torn me a new one with a Baron a couple times. Before the last update even!

Its a decent frame and, although obviously rubbish next to an Inq, it still has potential when utterly ignored because of its generally agreed badness 🤣

I'm gonna insist on taking a positive attitude with me into this bin I'm rooting around in!

In fact, I'm sinking even further into madness. I'm not sure they'll actually get any attention in the update, but Barons need to drop. Inqs can't go up too much without disappearing entirely, the disparity will still be there if Barons remain at 32.

Say Barons drop a couple. The Storm/Tempest will possibly remain the same, but it wouldn't be massively unfeasible for mid Init generics to get a look in, here and there.

Passive Sensors on all I3s might be something....

19 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

The issue with the Baron of the Empire is that there's no Talent the Baron could possibly take that's worth more than spending 3 points to get a force charge. I'd suspect they aren't really too bad a ship, and if someone had to take Barons instead of Inquisitors in a list which had Inqs, it'd be worse but not abject trash. But why fly something worse for no reason?

I would agree. I like Barons of the Empire, but as far as I'm concerned, they only have one real point of use or value - if you keep them under 33 points a ship (i.e. stick with a 1pt talent like Crack Shot or Ruthless) you can fit in a 6th ship.

If whatever build you were planning on clocks in at 34 points or more, you should probably have expected the Inquisition instead.

14 hours ago, Cuz05 said:

The Storm/Tempest will possibly remain the same, but it wouldn't be massively unfeasible for mid Init generics to get a look in, here and there.

If the Tempest Squadron Pilot drops by 1 point, you can bring a Tempest Squadron Pilot with Passive Sensors in 40 points. That's a pretty good deal as a ship, and removes its dependence on stuff like Jendon or Tarkin. On the other hand, Khiraxz dropped in cost to allow five with Deadman's Switches.

10 hours ago, Magnus Grendel said:

On the other hand, Khiraxz dropped in cost to allow five with Deadman's Switches.

I've flown a little bit of Kihraxz, I'm happy with the point comparison. They are side to side in some respects. The x1 is finickity, but I think it has higher potential, it can last pretty well. The K is reliably damaged and can swing a lot on offense, but it's a lot easier to use and keep on target.

I'm sort of thinking that the x1 is superior in many ways, but they both have such different applications, I'm suddenly struggling to compare.

Not sure what I think, but trying 5 x1 might have just made it onto my list.

I'm not convinced by 5 x TIE/x1. I think they're a great heavy swarm component, but I'm not sure about building a squad entirely out of them; just because I don't want to waste those lovely free criticals on shields - having 1-2 TIE/x1 being the last ships to engage in a heavy swarm can be brutal, but (certainly without passive sensors) the finickyness outweighs the benefits if you're considering an entire squad of them.

The Empire has a lot of options for the 40-point 3-dice attack Heavy Swarm component these days.

• Tempest Squadron Pilot (Fire Control System)
  • Initiative 2, requires target lock shenanigans, wants to fire last. Once the lock is established, it's got amazing action efficiency - with focus/link/roll and the ability to get rerolls after a talon roll. Good for extended fights against a big ship.
• Planetary Sentinel (Shield Upgrade or Afterburners or Payload upgrade)
  • The shield upgrade puts it very close to the Kihrax - Initiative 1. 5 hits, agility 2, 3 attack dice - it's a touch more fragile but a lot more squirrely. It's close enough to compare the two and to treat it as a 'generic' heavy fighter
  • Afterburners is hard to use with no speed 3 turn or 'end-around' manoeuvre, but can be shockingly effective for a flanking unit. Speed 1 bank/Speed 3 bank/Speed 1 bank can lead to serious "where the ******* did he come from" moments
  • Very few ships can bring payload without requiring either a medium or large ship or else a small ship which doesn't have much base firepower for its cost. The striker's fighter-bomber role can make it very dangerous en masse
• Gamma Squadron Ace (Barrage Rockets)
  • This is an even tastier heavy fighter. It sucks massively without a focus token, but with one it gets essentially the durability and firepower of a Khiraxz, but with no range 3 defence bonus and a sort-of-cut-price predator effect if it can bullseye you. Great for a head-on-engagement with something tough and un-manoeuvrable.
• Saber Squadron Ace
  • Okay....this is an awkward one. TIE interceptors remain incredibly fragile and finicky for their cost. But the fact does remain that this is an Initiative 4, boost-and-roll-with-autothrusters ship that's a non-specific generic. I'd love to see it cheaper and/or a resurrection of Royal Guard interceptors but as long as you're only engaging I3 pilots, Sabers are one heck of an opponent.

Nice post. I think I'll have to get a 2nd Striker for yet another version of the list!

The Bomber doesn't massively appeal but I do have an affection for the ship. Here it makes me a bit too jousty for my liking.

The Inteceptor will need some cooking with gas

You're right about 5 x1, I'm sure. What appeals is that the ones that do land the crits are interchangeable. I've seen it flown as a joust list and it's really not very good at that... Loose, they might be able do something.

It intrigues me to coax it into something else.

What if you did 3 inquisitors with Foresight, and 2 tempests with passive sensors. foresight is a point cheaper than cluster missiles, so it would give you the space for passive.

17 hours ago, Biggsy_boy said:

What if you did 3 inquisitors with Foresight, and 2 tempests with passive sensors. foresight is a point cheaper than cluster missiles, so it would give you the space for passive.

I like that. I only have 2 v1 atm though.