2 hours ago, Daeglan said:

Uhhh most of the force powers require a die roll so it is npt 100% certain. You could fail to accomplish the desired outcome.

And yet a number of folks when coming up with their own stats of various characters, both official and unofficial, will go out of their way to try and load the odds so that they can get as close to 100% certain as possible that a given character can accomplish a task as the game's math will allow. It's why the D6 versions of the main heroes and villains were so ludicrously capable, especially Luke whose stat block for when ANH ended far exceeded that of many experienced PCs with a dozen or more sessions under their belt. FFG isn't clear of this crime either, as many of the stat blocks for iconics in Allies and Adversaries are far more capable than most PCs will ever get to be with Luke (whose stats are said to be of the Battle of Hoth) make him a very capable Jedi wannabe in spite of having had no formal training aside from a brief scene with Ben all the way back in ANH.

Much as Kyla said, I go with a similar view of "such and such a sequence was a cinematic moment, and the character in question just has to have the chance of pulling it off," and that the characters we see on the big screen are simply getting the optimum result on their dice rolls, using what a friend of mine refers to as "movie hero dice" that really only fail when the plot requires them to fail. For instance, Luke of ANH doesn't always need to be able to hit that thermal exhaust port every single time, or even most of the time; so long as he has even a chance (no matter how remote) to make that shot, then you're good as the scene in the movie can be ascribed to him getting the dice result he needed to make that "one in a million" shot. Similar is Obi-Wan defeating Darth Maul in the end of TPM; on paper Maul should win that fight 9 times out of 10 (especially using the WotC stats of the time), and yet Obi-Wan was capable enough that he had the chance to win on paper, which was all he needed (along with some lucky rolls) where as Qui-Gon was probably a more even match for Maul, yet lost due to what in RPG terms would be some bad dice rolls on his part.

38 minutes ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

And yet a number of folks when coming up with their own stats of various characters, both official and unofficial, will go out of their way to try and load the odds so that they can get as close to 100% certain as possible that a given character can accomplish a task as the game's math will allow. It's why the D6 versions of the main heroes and villains were so ludicrously capable, especially Luke whose stat block for when ANH ended far exceeded that of many experienced PCs with a dozen or more sessions under their belt. FFG isn't clear of this crime either, as many of the stat blocks for iconics in Allies and Adversaries are far more capable than most PCs will ever get to be with Luke (whose stats are said to be of the Battle of Hoth) make him a very capable Jedi wannabe in spite of having had no formal training aside from a brief scene with Ben all the way back in ANH.

Much as Kyla said, I go with a similar view of "such and such a sequence was a cinematic moment, and the character in question just has to have the chance of pulling it off," and that the characters we see on the big screen are simply getting the optimum result on their dice rolls, using what a friend of mine refers to as "movie hero dice" that really only fail when the plot requires them to fail. For instance, Luke of ANH doesn't always need to be able to hit that thermal exhaust port every single time, or even most of the time; so long as he has even a chance (no matter how remote) to make that shot, then you're good as the scene in the movie can be ascribed to him getting the dice result he needed to make that "one in a million" shot. Similar is Obi-Wan defeating Darth Maul in the end of TPM; on paper Maul should win that fight 9 times out of 10 (especially using the WotC stats of the time), and yet Obi-Wan was capable enough that he had the chance to win on paper, which was all he needed (along with some lucky rolls) where as Qui-Gon was probably a more even match for Maul, yet lost due to what in RPG terms would be some bad dice rolls on his part.

yeah I would say you should look at a character and say how likely are they to pull x thing off. High likelyhood should get like a 75% chance. moderate chance gets like 55% and unlikely but possible gets 25% as an example. and this is without spending a destiny point. I suspect a lot of these moments would be ones where the character spent a destiny point to help them along. Which increases the odds a bit

5 hours ago, Kyla said:

****snip****

Agreed.

When I started this system I had "let go of the past... Unlearn what I had learned" from decades of gaming before. This system gives far more "control" of the game to the players than any other system I've ever enjoyed before (I really hate FATE) with enough crunch to keep me and a couple of my players entertained. I was a bit of a learning curve for me, but now that I'm driving (relatively) straight it's all downhill.

In reference to Kyla's DP house rule might have a potential for abuse, I think it has an elegance in it's simplicity and still the ability to achieve the desired goal. There are far easier ways for players bent on abusing the game than that.

Either way, make the game the type of movie you'd want to see. Some like Hallmark, some like Troma-vision, neither are wrong if you and your table are having fun (just expect a head scratch or several from time to time either way 😇 😋 ).

8 hours ago, Daeglan said:

Uhhh most of the force powers require a die roll so it is npt 100% certain. You could fail to accomplish the desired outcome.

Unless you have to make a skill check with the force power roll, you are guaranteed a success for a single pip power (the micro chance there are no DP to flip are way less than a percent of a percent so effectively 100) as you will always to at least 1 pip. You may not want to spend a black pip, but a result of deciding success isn't with the cost, not the inability to do it.

4 hours ago, Daeglan said:

yeah I would say you should look at a character and say how likely are they to pull x thing off. High likelyhood should get like a 75% chance. moderate chance gets like 55% and unlikely but possible gets 25% as an example. and this is without spending a destiny point. I suspect a lot of these moments would be ones where the character spent a destiny point to help them along. Which increases the odds a bit

"Never tell me the odds..." Lol

I've seen laws of probably warped at tables more than temporal theory in Dr Who. Lol

7 minutes ago, Jareth Valar said:

"Never tell me the odds..." Lol

I've seen laws of probably warped at tables more than temporal theory in Dr Who. Lol

As it should be. But I think Dono is right that far too often they make movie characters more capable than they should be and so it distorts player expectations.

12 minutes ago, Jareth Valar said:

Unless you have to make a skill check with the force power roll, you are guaranteed a success for a single pip power (the micro chance there are no DP to flip are way less than a percent of a percent so effectively 100) as you will always to at least 1 pip. You may not want to spend a black pip, but a result of deciding success isn't with the cost, not the inability to do it.

Not if you are using it on an NPC who can resist. and you many not get enough pips to satify your desired outcome. And many of them require a roll regardless. Though you should only roll when failure could be interesting.

11 minutes ago, Jareth Valar said:

I've seen laws of probably warped at tables more than temporal theory in Dr Who. Lol

Yeah, there was that one time my Presence 2, Charm 0 stormtrooper sergeant tried a Charm check against 4 Difficulty, 2 Setback and rolled 3 Success, 3 Threat.

Just had a check the other day of: YYGGP...

Result, 2 success, 4 Advantage, 2 Failure. 😑

Or Ace pilot, yyyyg failed a simple check with only 4 advantage. 🙄

"Hey! Remember when we were coming into Mos Espa......?"

"Shut up, before I vent the atmosphere back there..."

"LOL"

13 hours ago, Jareth Valar said:

Or Ace pilot, yyyyg failed a simple check with only 4 advantage. 🙄

"Hey! Remember when we were coming into Mos Espa......?"

"Shut up, before I vent the atmosphere back there..."

"LOL"

This is why you dont have them roll for simple stuff like landing outside of combat.

15 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

Thisnisnwhy youndont have them roll for simple stuff like landing outside of combat.

Can't remember the specifics of it anymore (it was 3 years ago now) but the diff was simple due to what was being done but there would have been setback for some reason but Skilled Jockey. I think it was a time crunch sort of thing, failed roll means take another rounds to try.....dunno...SOOOO many rolls since then. Either way, it was and has been a great running commentary in the game between the characters. Same character laughs at a RRPP roll, but still thinks twice on the easy ones. LOL

6 hours ago, Daeglan said:

Not if you are using it on an NPC who can resist. and you many not get enough pips to satify your desired outcome. And many of them require a roll regardless. Though you should only roll when failure could be interesting.

Which is why I mentioned " Unless you have to make a skill check with the force power roll, you are guaranteed a success for a single pip power... "

Some do require a roll, and those are less certain, but you are guaranteed a minimum number of Pips equal to the dice you roll. 2 dice, 2 guaranteed pips, 5 dice, 5 pips. Desire to use said pips is entirely a choice, not random.

As for the desired outcome, most base powers are only 1 pip to activate. You may not be guaranteed enough to activate all of your neat-niftys but for a good number of powers you are guaranteed at least a partial success, maybe not to the desired success, but success none the less.

But, like others mentioned many times in the past and splattered through many different threads, there is a precedence for some to stat characters with force dice enough to "stack the odds" like 5 FD just to consistently get 2 light pips. Wrong? Not my game, not my call. Do I do it that way? Nope. 🤷‍♂️

10 hours ago, Jareth Valar said:

Which is why I mentioned " Unless you have to make a skill check with the force power roll, you are guaranteed a success for a single pip power... "

Some do require a roll, and those are less certain, but you are guaranteed a minimum number of Pips equal to the dice you roll. 2 dice, 2 guaranteed pips, 5 dice, 5 pips. Desire to use said pips is entirely a choice, not random.

As for the desired outcome, most base powers are only 1 pip to activate. You may not be guaranteed enough to activate all of your neat-niftys but for a good number of powers you are guaranteed at least a partial success, maybe not to the desired success, but success none the less.

But, like others mentioned many times in the past and splattered through many different threads, there is a precedence for some to stat characters with force dice enough to "stack the odds" like 5 FD just to consistently get 2 light pips. Wrong? Not my game, not my call. Do I do it that way? Nope. 🤷‍♂️

yeah. I think it makes more sense for characters like Obi Wan to have to use dark side pips more regularly

On 12/15/2019 at 12:32 PM, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

Yep. Also works as narrative for anytime you successfully block all damage (assuming you have narratively appropriate abilities).

I differ with you on point about damage done by Move, because technically the damage is done by the object thrown by Move. That said, there is a definite difference in the amount of force (pardon the pun) that needs to be generated in order to throw a starship than to restrain a humanoid. Move operates on an entirely different power level from Bind.

Here's my opinion regarding Dooku pulling down the pillar: Let's assume he's got the full Move tree, allowing him to Move up to 4 Sil 4 items up to range 4 (Extreme). Furthermore, he can Hurl, perform fine manipulation, and pull items out of secure mountings. I as a GM would say, "Okay, it's a Sil 3 object, but I'm gonna say that it's more than just a secure mounting, so I'll count its Sil as 1 larger to represent the increased difficulty. Go ahead and roll your force power check." That requires 5 Force pips (1 for Range, 4 for Silhouette).

1 force pip activates all strength upgrades... if you have 4 strength upgrades you only need to spend one pip to activate all 4 of them, you also need a pip for the base power but 2 pips let you throw a sil 4 object that starts and ends within short range assuming you have 4 strength upgrades and the hurl upgrade and the pull upgrade.

10 hours ago, EliasWindrider said:

1 force pip activates all strength upgrades... if you have 4 strength upgrades you only need to spend one pip to activate all 4 of them, you also need a pip for the base power but 2 pips let you throw a sil 4 object that starts and ends within short range assuming you have 4 strength upgrades and the hurl upgrade and the pull upgrade.

Which is why I think people over emphasize on Force rating is foolish. as if you put a little more focus on the force powers you get a LOT more bang for your force rating.

45 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

Which is why I think people over emphasize on Force rating is foolish. as if you put a little more focus on the force powers you get a LOT more bang for your force rating.

Once you can semi reliably get 3 pips of the desired color (so you don't have destiny point flip to use pips of other color, destiny point shortage not conflict is the issue), I'd agree with you. That happens around fr 5 (you tend to get 2 or 4 white at that point, for dark siders fr 3 or 4 works). If you have the empty soul talent from ascetic that makes it a little easier.

The benefit of Force rating is it will work on all of your powers, were focusing one power is a lot more limiting. They are both needed with is great as it let high experience characters last long in games. My EOTE and AOR games normally ended around 600 EXP cause the player had so many talents and skills. My Force game is up to 800 and the player still fell like they can last a while until they become too powerful for the game.

I'm gonna try to at least hit the original questions before I dive into the discussion:

On 12/15/2019 at 11:15 AM, emsquared said:

"1. . . .what differentiates an animate object frkm an inanimate one? And i dont mean in the rules but i. The universe. What would one power work and another not work?

2. What power would you ise to freeze a blaster bolt?

3. What power would you use to crush everything around Vader in episode 3?

4. What power would you use to crush the base of the pillar in episode 2? "

1. I would generally say if it's acting under its own power, but i honestly don't have a one-size-fits-all answer. A human, an ewok, and a droid are all animate objects. A piloted speeder bike... I guess that depends what you want to do. If you're trying to use Move , I would probably allow it, with an increased difficulty. An unattended speeder bike would be an inanimate object.

2. As others have suggested, probably Protect, but it looks a lot like Bind. And that's okay! You can describe things a lot of different ways, with a lot of different trappings. The Savage Worlds RPG encourages a lot of this. I think the classic example is a magical thief, picking a lock. He rolls his dice, looks at the results, and says, "I pull some sparkling dust from my pocket and blow it into the lock, whispering arcane words. The lock shudders, and then clicks open." Another player says, "What the heck spell is that? That's not on your list!" The Mage's player smiles and says, "I just rolled my lockpicking skill. When I roll Stealth, I gather shadows around me, and when I score high enough on an Intimidation roll, my voice echoes and I become terrible to behold."

So in this case, Kylo Ren prevented the damage of the blaster bolt with Protect. Heck, maybe he even used Foresee's defensive upgrade, and/or the same from Sense. Poe blows his shot, and Kylo throws a cool narrative effect on it. The same can be done to use weakened versions of abilities you don't have, so long as the rules allow it. If a stormtrooper shoots at one of my players, and rolls a bunch of Threat, my player could say, "I don't have Improved Reflect, but could I get lucky enough to smack this one back at him?" I would say, "Yeah, it's a clumsy reflect, and it deflects off his armor. He rolled four Threat, so he'll suffer four Strain. And since he was already wounded, that's enough to take him out. He's not dead, but i guess that armor really does save lives!" Every bit of that is exactly according to the rules!

3. I assume you're speaking about the "NNNOOOOOOOO!!!" scene. Bind , Move or Unleash would all be appropriate . The important question is, "Do I have a reason to say 'No?'" If Vader's player said, "Okay, so I've just lost everything, I think I completely lose it. Waves of grief and anger start rippling out of me, destroying medical equipment and all that. Could I use Bind for that? Or would that be Move? " I would just say, "Dude, don't even roll. That just happens. Glass shatters, metal crumples, and your dark mentor looks on, smiling under his cowl."

4. I'd call that Move.