I picked up the Revised Rulebook this afternoon. First impression - it's beautiful. The colors are great, the binding is nice and the cover has a smooth yet not glossy feel to it, almost like a matte finish.

I haven't been able to read through much, but I'll give you this tid-bit. There are seven scenarios in the back of the book. One uses the mansion map, one the castle dungeons and the other five use the board from Novgorod.

So, who else has the new rules?

Five Novgrood scenarios and only two for the original maps?

So, let's have some details - what are the equipment rules like? How do you get troopers back (since in the preview rules the CP don't carry over)?

Info! Info!

I always got the impression that the scenarios were just a bonus to give you an idea of what was possible. Personally, we just make up our own story based on what story tokens are available. Everything sounds good to me, though I'm not sure why they didn't make it downloadable from FFG.

Prof_werewolf said:

Scenarios are where the game truly shines on imho. What's really interesting is the inclusion of specific objectives making each scenario different from one another. I regret that FFG did not support it more during the ToY era.

I don't know how appropriate it is to quote rules that weren't included in the free preview, but I can offer up some generalities. Note, however, I haven't read everything yet. And I still haven't played a game with the revised rules, so my assumptions may be incorrect.

First - Weapons

All basic weapon types (i.e. knife, pistol, automatic) that aren't a unique weapon like the Flash Gun don't have any special rules, roll any extra dice or do anything other than give the character an attack. A .45 pistol is a .45 pistol, whether its used by John McNeal or any other character. I like this a lot, as you don't have to memorize which weapons add +1 to the result of each die, or add additional dice to the roll, or whatever. It's clean and simple.

Weapons and equipment seemed to be toned down in terms of power, but also more consistent in expected damage out-put. Gone is the Flash Gun's insta-death on a natural 10. In it's place is something that's still useful, but not unbalancing, especially as there are no minimum weapon ranges (at least none that I've found so far).

From what I've read, Daniel Barry Brown will be a Hero I can actually count on to do something when equipped with the Flash Machine Gun A6A, unlike in the old game where he seemed to die without getting off any shots with that thing. The Sha-Na-Ra is also weaker. It shouldn't be able to insta-kill a Hero at the start of the game anymore, though I guess that could happen on a particularly bad roll. I now see Heizinger using it to target Troopers rather than Heroes, or wounded Heroes during the later stages of battle.

With fewer special rules, my hope is that freaky dice rolls won't play as big a part in revised Tannhauser, and it will be more about movement, combos and resource management (e.g. spending and gaining command points, overwatch, bull rushing, etc).

Second - Reinforcements

Certain game modes give you 3 CPs per turn. They are Domination, King of the Hill and Objective mode. Otherwise, I can't see how you could buy reinforcements in either Death Match or Capture the Flag as additional Troopers must be purchased before activating any characters on your team, and CPs don't hold over from previous turns. As for Story mode, some of the scenarios give you 2 CPs per turn, others 3.

I really like King of the Hill. It's not exactly thematic like Story mode (though I guess it could be), but it seems fun to play. It's a rush to score as many points as possible in 10 turns. You score points by having a certain character stand next to Objective, Action and entry point circles. This mode has some neat twists - such as establishing the Chain of Command - that I think will make it a favorite of my group.

Any other questions? Let me know.

So equipement are all the same now ? That's sad as I actually liked the fact that some weapons were stronger than another...

Plageman said:

I think the focus is less on the generic weapons like pistols and rifles, and more on the unique items and character abilities. Going over the rules, everything seems so much more streamlined and unified than before, which I think is great. By simplifying certain parts - weapons of the same type have the same stats regardless of character - it should make the game play faster and highlight your tactics rather than whoever is throwing more dice. It also makes proper application of your team's special items even more critical to achieving victory.

Don't get me wrong though, the equipment is not vanilla, and there's still a lot to choose from. Each character has several interesting options, and there are a few weapons that are different than the rest, such as the various Flash Guns, Wolf's SMG and the weapons used by Zor'ka and Irishka. I just find the special items/abilities stand out more now as the knives, pistols and such have faded into the background.

Yipe - thanks for info!

The streamlining and simplifying sounds like a very good thing to me. I'm all in favor of that.

But some of the other stuff worries me.

With a basic pistol just rolling 4 dice with no bonus, and soak rolls being 4 dice, it seems like basic weapons like that will have a really hard time causing damage! As I mentioned in another thread, its never likely to cause more than 1 wound, and you can easily spend 1 CP to negate a wound.

Getting 3 CP each turn in the other modes also seems a bit off, since you can replace a trooper each turn. I'd figured replacing troopers would be an occaisional thing, not that you'd have a constant stream of them!

Hmmm...really not sure what to think.

I was hoping to get to at least look at the rules Thursday, but it didn't work out.

Is there any sort of reference sheet included in the book?

I'm not sure I like what I'm seeing here. If MacNeal's Colt .45 no longer adds +2 to each die result, then I'm afraid Stormknight is right and no one will ever die. Under the sample rules with the old token effects death tolls had already dropped in my house. With this change I'm not sure how anyone will die.

Now I'm worring they've broke the game more than before.

StormKnight said:

Yes, you could purchase a replacement Trooper every turn, but there are a few restrictions and reasons you might not do so. First, you have to have a dead Trooper to replace. If I understand the rules correctly, you can't have more characters on the board than you started with at the beginning of the game.

Second, if you spend all 3 CPs on a reinforcement you can't place any of your characters on overwatch that turn, or perform other special actions (e.g. re-roll initiative, launch a counter-attack, shaking off a wound, etc). That could be, err, tactically unsound.

As for MacNeal's Colt .45, no it doesn't have the +2 bonus anymore. However, Nighteyes does give a nice ranged-attack bonus. I think FFG made the change because - at least in my experience - we never took the Flash-Gun Mk 1 as MacNeal was far more dangerous with his pistol, which seemed a bit odd or just plain wrong. Now the Flash-Gun is a superior weapon, as it should be.

StormKnight said:

There isn't a reference sheet in the book.

Now, to answer some of the questions about lethality - I'm pretty sure characters are still going to die. I'm sorry if my info makes the game seem watered-down, I'm trying to avoid putting up any overly specific info (which FFG might frown upon).

The game is different though, so I don't think we're going to see as much of "X Hero dies instantly on turn 1 from a single attack" as we did under the old rules. Instead, characters will be whittled down over time, or you'll have to use combined-fire to take them out in the same turn. And that's plenty alright with me. It should give each player time to develop their tactics. Also, not every game mode is about eliminating the opposing team. For example, King of the Hill is all about scoring points. You can lose even if you wipe your opponent off the map. Again, I'm quite happy about this change of direction.

With the old rules, I sometimes felt it didn't matter as much what you did or where you moved (especially as the Reich), just how well you rolled. And with some pieces of equipment, such as the Sha-Na-Ra or Doom, there didn't seem to be any escape. Everything has been subsequently taken down a notch. In return, however, there are more movement and attack options. Overwatch is now included in the game, allowing you to set up traps for your opponent, and the bull rush rules are actually playable.

One last thing to note - the minimum weapon ranges are gone, and I feel grenades are more powerful. This alone should up the game's lethality. I'm looking forward to charging into a room and hosing a pair of Reich characters with Barry's Flash Machine Gun. Good stuff.

I'm trying to avoid putting up any overly specific info (which FFG might frown upon).

I don't know what FFG would or wouldn't approve of, and I can understand not wanting to tick them off. But since they didn't include reference sheets, if they aren't going to let people post reference sheets online (which would include token stats), then its going to be a royal pain since everyone will have to make their own.

I appreciate the info so far, but right now its sounding like the revised rules won't really work

StormKnight said:

Hmm, I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion based on what I wrote, but to each their own I guess. After reading the revised rules, Tannhauser has gone from a game that I liked both visually and thematically - but also one that had serious flaws (in rulebook layout, design, faction balance and replay value) - to a game I really want to play.

I'll give a specific example from the book:

John McNeal's Combat Pack = Nighteyes, Flash-Gun Mk I, Combat Infantry Badge and Medal of Honor

Nighteyes: The Nighteyes allow McNeal to ignore smoke, and give him +2 to a single ranged attack die each time he attacks. Choose which die to increase after the roll.

Flash-Gun Mk I: If McNeal rolls a natural 10 on the attack with his Flash-Gun, roll 2 more dice and add those results to the attack roll. He can do this only once per attack (i.e. multiple natural 10s don't add additional dice).

Combat Infantry Badge: When attacking, the Combat Infantry Badge allows McNeal to re-roll his lowest 2 dice, including 1s.

Medal of Honor: Once per game, discard the Medal of Honor to place McNeal in overwatch without spending a CP.

So, based on that pack, McNeal could dish out some hurt (5 dice pool for the Flash-Gun, +2 to a single die, re-roll 2 lowest dice and add 2 dice on a natural 10, all without a minimum range). He's not as powerful as before (where his .45 had a +2 bonus on every roll), but then everything has been toned down in the game to allow for (in my opinion) victory through movement and coordinating your team's attacks and not freaky dice rolling.

StormKnight said:

It kind of sounds like you've already written the game off before reading the new rules. Having already played with the new rules provided in the preview, we found it far more entertaining and engaging than the original. The mess of dice rolling was condensed into something manageable, grenades were easier to use, and now it sounds like both teams will actually have to slug it out instead of being cut in half in the first five minutes of the game.

What would be some suggestions you'd offer up as an alternative to the recent changes?

I agree. The rules are more streamlined and easier to follow. They make a lot more sense to me. No one seems to be to over powered so tactics play a much bigger part then straight fire power. Can't wait to play with these rules tomorrow.

Yipe - again, thanks for the more info. I like the medals you detail there much better than the old ones.

But, we pretty much figured McNeal's Flashgun would be fine; in fact, even just being an automatic weapon is good enough to be worthwhile. Is there any point to taking his pistol now? If you buy the Union trooper pack should you just throw Commando Delta in the garbage since no one will ever want him with his measly pistol when Commando Alpha has a Flashgun or SMG?

Having already played with the new rules provided in the preview, we found it far more entertaining and engaging than the original.

I found it a bit better, but found it very hard for some weapons to cause any damage, and that was playing with the old stats where pistols gave a bonus to the attack roll!

What would be some suggestions you'd offer up as an alternative to the recent changes?

Well, I really don't know what the recent changes are! That's kinda the point; the rules changes are half or less of it; the equipment is the other half, and that's still mostly a mystery.

StormKnight said:

Commando Delta comes with the BG-42 vest, which cancels out all damage from an attack if you roll a natural 10 on your shock roll. I still see that as a worthwhile choice, depending on your team's composition. Are you going hyper-aggressive on damage, or do you want some defense thrown into the mix?

As for taking MacNeal's pistol - it comes in his Command Pack which has 2 very nice pieces of equipment not found in either the Combat or Stamina Packs. It's all about options. And for me, more options = more tactics.

Honestly, the new rules are only $10.00. Why not pick 'em up? Trust me, if you like playing Tannhauser, you want them.

I actually traded my copy of Tannhauser away a couple of years ago. I loved the world and the concept, but the game just wasn't that much fun.

Well, I was curious about the new rules, having read the preview online, so I took a look at a copy at the FLGS yesterday. I was impressed enough to want to pick up the game again. The improvements to the gameplay are very welcome.

I thought the new game modes looked like fun, especially with the varying CP. Those with 3CP allowing for re-spawn will have a fun, frantic FPS feel to them.

The new equipment looked much more balanced. Often, there would be one pack that was sort of the no-brainer choice as the other choices had some worthless token on them. I didn't see that as the case. Yipe's example of MacNeal is a good one. The Flash Gun is great, and really quite strong (especially with no minimum range), but the extra medals from the equipment pack could make the downgrade in firepower worthwhile. (A question I have would be: are the items that can be discarded for VPs used as an action? If not, they are really useful as they can save another life or bring on a respawn. If they are an action, they will require more planning to use properly.)

The ranks seem much more useful now as they supply a nice Initiative bonus. The lower rate of damage will make First Aid packs significantly easier to use.

The thing I liked most about the new rule book was that I could see a time when I would want most of the equipment packs. That was just not the case before. In fact, use of bonus tokens may be tougher as there aren't many tokens that are no-brainers to just drop.

All right, I'll trust you that the new packs balance out. With luck, I should pick up the new rules Tuesday.

I got mine (digital) and hope to get the print book tomorrow.

Got the PDF as soon as it was out. Will have to wait some time until I get a paper version since it may take weeks to arrive in my little corner of the world.

Incidentally, I did pick up the new rules. Physical copy. Also grabbed Ramirez while I was at it so the Union and the Reich would both have an extra hero to pick from. (Or add in, so we can give each player even numbers when playing with 4 or 6).

I had a game today using the new rules with my friend.

Well the rules really streamlined the gameflow with much more planable actions and turns as you can now somewhat calculate the outcome.

As it seems the game needs more time now as lethality dropped a bit. Certain combinations are as deadly as ever, e.g. Mc Neal with Combat Pack. But others have dropped a little bit e.g. Eva's Strafe which does only really good when rolling a 10. I had her quite deadlier and bitchier in mind.

But all in all it becam much more tactically appealing as well as much more thrilling as the victory was decided came down to the last dice roll.

Regarding Mc Neals Pack Choice which has been discussed earlier I wanted to add that the Mental Pack is an interesting choice even if it has a less combat potential. However I didn't choose it today but should have as the Reich chose some Badges for Heizinger giving him +4 on Init Rolls. You now can't neglect those badges because this could mean loosing initiative all the time as I did. So you have at least to think about it and build your strategy around a pontential initiative loss.

A thing I didn't really like was the fact that melee has lost a lot of its potential with cancelling the min.Range Rule as it is quite risky to ambush a character without killing him and he may counterattack with a flashgun or whatever just ignoring a no more existing min. range. In the past the Stosstruppen was quite safe, even safer when beeing adjacent to an enemy. Nearly the same is with Eva or Yula.

Ranged units are far superior than melee units. e.g. A Commando Alpha with Combat Pack has a threatening Range of 7 Mov. where he can go on the map and then shoot at EVERYTHING on his paths, EVEN adjacent characters, with his Shock Gun (5 dice + 2 potential on a 0) . Whereas a Stosstruppen with his Combat Pack has a threatening Range of 7 Mov. and can ONLY target an adjacent character with 6 dice and thats it. Additionally as stated above the victim of the Stosstruppen can counterattack with an automatic weapon or something.

I am not sure yet if I like the non min range rule. Maybe they should have decreased it by one circle except skiping it at all or at least inserted the rule that hth can only be counterattacked with hth and no ranged weapons.

So those were some of my cents I dropped here and I am going to sleep now.

SCHLAFT GUT

So after our second game with the new rules I have to admit that I miss some of the lethality. Seriously, we had instances with people standing in the same room firing their weapons, missing each and every time. Then of course if someone did make a hit, the other side used Command Points to remove the wound. It was fun but after a while I found myself craving some of the older fights where one dice roll could kill someone outright.

I guess another complaint would be the lack of quick reference sheets. It got old having to flip through the new manual every time we wanted to find out what a piece of equipment could or could not do. I'm thinking of making my own sheets from the downloaded pdf, but to be honest that's not something I really want to spend my time on.

The game is still a hoot but there were more than a few times where we just rolled our eyes and pressed on. Hopefully we'll be able to smooth some things out with a few more plays.

Prof_werewolf said:

There's another thread here were someone is making reference cards for all the equipment tokens, they look really shiney. I'm not sure if they use new or old rules, I suppose that would be something to verify before getting too excited. Still, even if these cards use old rules, it should be comparatively easier to edit the text to make new rules versions than to make your own reference materials from scratch.