@Karneck for a normal customer there is no way of knowing if a product is being sold "rightfully" or not. The product being on shelves all across the country is as official of a launch as you can get. The Onager has ben officially released in Germany sanctioned by Asmodee Germany who is responsible for official german releases. Unless FFG comes out with an FAQ or tournament rules update specifically banning the Onager from tournaments until it releases world wide I would argue the expansion is legal in every german tournament from today in two weeks and on.

4 minutes ago, LordCola said:

@Karneck for a normal customer there is no way of knowing if a product is being sold "rightfully" or not. The product being on shelves all across the country is as official of a launch as you can get. The Onager has ben officially released in Germany sanctioned by Asmodee Germany who is responsible for official german releases. Unless FFG comes out with an FAQ or tournament rules update specifically banning the Onager from tournaments until it releases world wide I would argue the expansion is legal in every german tournament from today in two weeks and on.

there is really not much to add.

Likely, the ultimate release choice came from higher than FFG... Disney.

As in, Disney likely said, "Dont launch until post Ep9" and not everywhere got said memo.

1 hour ago, RapidReload said:

Hmm, as far as I know (maybe they changed it), German rules for prime championships allow a new wave to be used once they have been in the store for two weeks. These tournaments are then ruled based on the available information. Maybe @Tokra

knows more?

@Karneck is right. the Product has to be released. And officially released in Germany (this was the problem with the Interdictor if i remember right, where the German version came out 9 month later than the English one).

The time there was a problem was with the release of the SSD. It came out exactly 2 weeks before the grand. And on top of this, there is no German SSD.
It was just a question if the SSD is allowed for the grand or not. And Asmodee said offically that it will be allowed.

1 hour ago, LordCola said:

@Karneck for a normal customer there is no way of knowing if a product is being sold "rightfully" or not. The product being on shelves all across the country is as official of a launch as you can get. The Onager has ben officially released in Germany sanctioned by Asmodee Germany who is responsible for official german releases. Unless FFG comes out with an FAQ or tournament rules update specifically banning the Onager from tournaments until it releases world wide I would argue the expansion is legal in every german tournament from today in two weeks and on.

Again, you are misinterpreting standard procedure for FFG. FFG always announces on their website WHEN a product is released and legal for play. Again, just because someone is SELLING it, doesn't mean it is legal for play competitively until FFG officially states the legal release date. Which they have not.

2 hours ago, LordCola said:

@Karneck for a normal customer there is no way of knowing if a product is being sold "rightfully" or not. The product being on shelves all across the country is as official of a launch as you can get. The Onager has ben officially released in Germany sanctioned by Asmodee Germany who is responsible for official german releases. Unless FFG comes out with an FAQ or tournament rules update specifically banning the Onager from tournaments until it releases world wide I would argue the expansion is legal in every german tournament from today in two weeks and on.

2 weeks post German release may be precedent, but it’s not LEGAL unless the tournament organizer in question says they are adhering to it.

Too fully quote:

https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/op/legality/

(italic emphasis mine)

Competitive Tier tournaments: All product is legal in North America 11 days—typically the second Monday—after the product's official release. This allows players at these high-profile tournaments sufficient time to acquire and prepare with each new release. (Includes Prime, Grand, Continental, and World Championships)

Official product releases are typically announced each Thursday on the front page of our website and shown on the Upcoming products page . All multi-day or convention events in North America base product legality on the first day of the event or convention, whichever comes first. Casual side tournaments held during the same multi-day or convention event as a Competitive tournament may have different legal products. New products available at the venue of Casual events may be deemed legal by the organizer, even if not yet released.

This page will be updated with each legal product and its official release date—if not currently legal—for reference.

Players outside of North America should contact their organizer to determine the legality of recent product releases.

2 hours ago, Ling27 said:

Likely, the ultimate release choice came from higher than FFG... Disney.

As in, Disney likely said, "Dont launch until post Ep9" and not everywhere got said memo.

This makes no sense though.

1 hour ago, Karneck said:

Again, you are misinterpreting standard procedure for FFG. FFG always announces on their website WHEN a product is released and legal for play. Again, just because someone is SELLING it, doesn't mean it is legal for play competitively until FFG officially states the legal release date. Which they have not.

I think you are wrong. I just read through the Tournament Regulations and it explicitly puts the responsibility of deciding what products are legal on Asmodee Germany (in this case) and not FFG.

Section 2, subsection 3 "Legal Products" states:

Quote

For Relaxed and Formal events, all product is legal in North America upon the product's official release. For Premier events, all product is legal in North America 11 days—typically the second Monday—after the product's official release. Official dates will be updated on the Product Legality page on our website (FantasyFlightGames.com/OP/Legality/SW). Players outside North America should check with their organizer to determine which products are tournament legal.

This paragraph has a number of interesting points in it.

1. There is an official Product Legality page
2. The SSD as well as RitR are both not listed on said Product Legality page
3. FFG makes no claim which expansions are legal for tournament play outside of north America, instead putting responsibility to determine that on (I assume) national OP organizer.

The only problem is that I do not know Asmodee Germanys official policy on which ships are tournament legal as their official website only links to the american tournament regulations with the same unhelpful statement

Quote

Players outside North America should check with their organizer to determine which products are tournament legal.

So in summery, FFG explicitly says that they do not determine what product is tournament legal outside of north America. So we do not need to wait for them to officially release the Onager for the possibility of it being tournament legal.

7 minutes ago, LordCola said:

I think you are wrong. I just read through the Tournament Regulations and it explicitly puts the responsibility of deciding what products are legal on Asmodee Germany (in this case) and not FFG.

Section 2, subsection 3 "Legal Products" states:

This paragraph has a number of interesting points in it.

1. There is an official Product Legality page
2. The SSD as well as RitR are both not listed on said Product Legality page
3. FFG makes no claim which expansions are legal for tournament play outside of north America, instead putting responsibility to determine that on (I assume) national OP organizer.

The only problem is that I do not know Asmodee Germanys official policy on which ships are tournament legal as their official website only links to the american tournament regulations with the same unhelpful statement

Note: Asmodee Germany is not the organizer.

The organizer will be a PERSON.

Wether or not they WORK for them is questionable but likely but specifically, it is still a PERSON and that PERSON may vary from tournament to tournament... So it is important - and on the head of - tgat individual person.

For primes, the organizer usually works for the store/venue holding it. As they are responsible fir says venue. Unless it’s a grand or continental, it’s likely someone who doesn’t work fir Asmodee for a prime.

(As from Roles in the tournament regulations )

In the end it may be splitting hairs, but it’s still an important distinction - and I’m sure that if Asmodee Germany put out abd has a place to reference legality, most would adhere to it.

But as it stands , it’s on the head of the tournament organizer.

1 minute ago, Drasnighta said:

Note: Asmodee Germany is not the organizer.

The organizer will be a PERSON.

Wether or not they WORK for them is questionable but likely but specifically, it is still a PERSON and that PERSON may vary from tournament to tournament... So it is important - and on the head of - tgat individual person.

Yeah, I was unclear on that point. "their organizer" could be interpreted as the entity that governs the whole national tournament scene or it could be understood as the individual tournament organizer.

Though I guess in case of german nationals someone from Asmodee Germany would be the "organizer" acting out Asmodee Germanys will.

1 minute ago, LordCola said:

Yeah, I was unclear on that point. "their organizer" could be interpreted as the entity that governs the whole national tournament scene or it could be understood as the individual tournament organizer.

Though I guess in case of german nationals someone from Asmodee Germany would be the "organizer" acting out Asmodee Germanys will.

In Austria its a dude who doesnt even actively play the game and is not associated with Asmodee

2 minutes ago, LordCola said:

Yeah, I was unclear on that point. "their organizer" could be interpreted as the entity that governs the whole national tournament scene or it could be understood as the individual tournament organizer.

Though I guess in case of german nationals someone from Asmodee Germany would be the "organizer" acting out Asmodee Germanys will.

Organizer is a defined position in the tournament regulations, along with marshal, judge, player and spectator.

It does not ordinarily include the governing body. Although as said, the individual may be associated with them.

2 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

Organizer is a defined position in the tournament regulations, along with marshal, judge, player and spectator.

That's what I get for only reading the seemingly relevant sections of the tournament regulations (to this question) instead of the whole thing. xD

21 hours ago, LordCola said:

Also Local Fire Control System seems bad for the empire. No ship would ever want to equip this upgrade, right?

• SSDs would pick gunnery team
• ISD1 is never played but if someone were to play it I guess they would want either flight controllers or boarding troopers
• ISD2 and Cymoon would pick gunnery team
• Kuat would pick boarding troopers or fire-control team
• The Onager is already weak defensively. It really does not want to swap a brace or redirect for a salvo
• Quasars also need the defense tokens they have
• GSD wants to take ordnance experts
• Raider either wants ordnance experts or Weapons Battery Techs. But even if the slot was free it is already rather week defensively and only has a single blue die in its rear so salvo seems really bad
• VSD2 wants gunnery team
• VSD1 wold probably rather take flight controllers or ordnance experts

That's it. That are all the ships that can theoretically even take Local Fire Control System and I really don't see any of those ships ever taking it.

For the Rebels it seems a little better. I can see Assault Frigates or Vanguard Nebulon-Bs take it.

Also how does Salvo interact with Ackbar. I know that Ackbar can't add dice to a salvo attack but can you even make a salvo attack from your front if you previously this turn committed to shooting only out of your sides for Ackbars effect. Also what if you salvo from your front first, before your ship activates can you then even still activate Ackbar? His card says:

But by that point the ship can't decide to only shoot from its sides this whole round because it has previously already shot from a non-side arc.

Salvo seems like a huge missed opportunity. I'm not sure why FFG did this with salvo. I think that in order to give every ship the opportunity to use salvo, it would need to be an officer slot if I'm not mistaken. I suspect that they play tested salvo in the officer slot and that resulted in games ending too quickly?

4 minutes ago, Wulff_Yularen said:

Salvo seems like a huge missed opportunity. I'm not sure why FFG did this with salvo. I think that in order to give every ship the opportunity to use salvo, it would need to be an officer slot if I'm not mistaken. I suspect that they play tested salvo in the officer slot and that resulted in games ending too quickly?

So far it seems to me that Salvo will be going down the same path as Raid. At first sounding absolutely game-changing but ending up totally underwhelming and rarely used.

45 minutes ago, LordCola said:

So far it seems to me that Salvo will be going down the same path as Raid. At first sounding absolutely game-changing but ending up totally underwhelming and rarely used.

Quite the opposite.

It completely changes the way you have to play - and being able to force that decision path on your opponent is quite priceless.

Triple Tap Demos wouldn’t have been half the issue they were with Salvo about.

55 minutes ago, LordCola said:

So far it seems to me that Salvo will be going down the same path as Raid. At first sounding absolutely game-changing but ending up totally underwhelming and rarely used.

Even if Salvo didn’t look valuable, it’s automatically there for the new ships.

Meaning it’s used at least as much as they are.

One more time for the people in the back:

Salvo is good. Local Fire Control is good and is a good upgrade on the right ships, so long as you use it right.

8 minutes ago, geek19 said:

Salvo is good. Local Fire Control is good and is a good upgrade on the right ships, so long as you use it right.

Well, which ones are the right ones? At least for the empire I don't see any. I often hear the Kuat, but I think BT Avenger is just strait up better and I can't see how a Local Fire Control GSD would be better than one with ordnance experts.

1 hour ago, LordCola said:

Well, which ones are the right ones? At least for the empire I don't see any. I often hear the Kuat, but I think BT Avenger is just strait up better and I can't see how a Local Fire Control GSD would be better than one with ordnance

I run Kuats without BT Avenger more often than with BT Avenger. Especially when I use token shenanigans with Sovereign. Plus with a sudden abundance of Agate, and the recent additions of Reeva Demense and even Fleet in Being objective, BT Avenger isn't the be all end all Kuat config.

Victory, Kuat, ISD-1, Assault Frigate, Armored 75, Vanguard Neb. Adding a Salvo opens up options which is always helpful, and gives new ship builds which also affects the way ships run. Expand your horizons!

I can see Clone Wars ships getting a lot of Salvo.

Also, you can Salvo a Arq. Red+Black at long range? Well, not an Arq, cause no weapons team... but using it because its the only rear arc I have memorized...

Better example is a Kuat. As it has a black, blue, and red.

You can only Salvo the dice that are in range. Example, if you were attacked at long range, you can only use red, medium is red+blue, close range is red+blue+black.

Keep in mind, if the attackers attack was obstructed, the Salvo attack is also obstructed and again, no matter what, You cannot add dice to the attack.
Dice modifying is ok.

9 hours ago, Karneck said:

Not so much "allowed" as no one reminded to tell them "not" too.

From what I can guess, this was supposed to be the original launch date for both expansions, but as we can see, the Starhawk wasn't ready yet. Thus the recent announcement about the expansions being released in January.
Somehow the memo to delay the release wasn't passed along to all of the distributors and that is why the Onager is only being sold in the Central Europe area.

9 hours ago, ovinomanc3r said:

So do we play RAW or RAI? 🤣

... or RAPA? Rules as passed along?

10 hours ago, geek19 said:

Assault Frigate, Armored 75, Vanguard Neb.

I was only asking for imperial ships because as I already said previously, I can totally see the assault frigate and the Vanguard Neb take salvo.

10 hours ago, geek19 said:

Victory, Kuat, ISD-1

So my thinking here is that:

The VSDs biggest weakness is already its defensive. You invest a lot of points in this ship and yet it already often dies. Taking salvo requires giving up one of its very precious defensive defense tokens and swapping it out for an offensive one. I just don't think that is what you want to do on a VSD.

The ISD-1 is just never played. In all the time I have played this game I have seen this ship exactly once. So I don't think that salvo on an ISD-1 will be a big game changer. Also ISD-1 are (as far as I know) only run as a carrier, where I think Flight Controllers would be better, or as BT Avenger, where you would want BT.

The Kuat I have mostly only seen with 2 variants: BT Avenger or Fire-Control Team, HIE, ACM with Vader. I don't think those are the only ways to play a Kuat, but I think they are both significantly better than giving it Salvo.

But I guess only time will tell who is right.