2 minutes ago, UnitOmega said:

Rebellions are built on hope.

Though you can also sense the put-upon rebel main here "Gee, Imps, why does your new nimble quick thinking commander get Red Dice?"

And no command slot. *sad Aggressive tactics noises*

So Iden with the DLT-20A costs the same as Bossk, and has the same upgrade slots (not counting Counterpart) available. Directly comparing them, Bossk has much more damage potential in both ranged and melee, and has Suppressive at range. However, Iden is much, much tougher (unless Bossk were to get extremely lucky on regeneration rolls), and Marksman could potentially improve her offensive capabilities by a good amount, depending on what it actually does.

I look forward to seeing the rest of her command cards and what ID10 can add to really see how these two stack up.

21 minutes ago, Cleto0 said:

Are you serious?

To which part do you object?

Yes, K2’s weapon is Suppessive.

22 minutes ago, JediPartisan said:

An infinite range sniper rifle is worth way more than 15.

It is possible that the card in the photo is not the final design, albeit probably unlikely.

Heck the promo card released for Han had him with red defense dice, so it wouldn't be the first time there was a mistake.

1 minute ago, Caimheul1313 said:

It is possible that the card in the photo is not the final design, albeit probably unlikely.

Heck the promo card released for Han had him with red defense dice, so it wouldn't be the first time there was a mistake.

It does seem odd to me that they just nerfed some snipers, just to add two more infinite range snipers. I thought they said, infinite range would be reserved for special things like air strikes and the like (command card kind of stuff). I wonder if these cards were being printed when they were doing the nerf. Does that mean they will eventually be nerfed.

1 minute ago, JediPartisan said:

It does seem odd to me that they just nerfed some snipers, just to add two more infinite range snipers. I thought they said, infinite range would be reserved for special things like air strikes and the like (command card kind of stuff). I wonder if these cards were being printed when they were doing the nerf. Does that mean they will eventually be nerfed.

Maybe. They may even be nerfed before they are actually released. Wouldn't be the first time that's happened to a unit in a miniatures game.

43 minutes ago, JediPartisan said:

Why is Cassian’s sniper rifle Cumbersome? At 10 points, it’s incredibly cheap, but cumbersome is a nasty Keyword just to reduce cost by 5 or so (the “or so” is the value difference between 1r1b and 2b) points, compared to Iden’s rifle.

My guess is that he can be run either as a sniper stuck for the game in a really good spot or run as an objective/ close range fighter. Depends on what that weapon looks like in close range and what K2 does with him.

43 minutes ago, JediPartisan said:

Should Jyn really be worth 10 more points then Iden? I’m not really sure, but I lean toward, no. And please don’t say that Iden’s sniper rifle costs an extra 15 points. An infinite range sniper rifle is worth way more than 15. Scouts and Commando need to pay 28 for a range 5 weapon. Iden just seems a better version of Jyn, though I can be convinced otherwise.

Having run Jyn recently I can say she is meh? This expansion may change a lot, but right now she is stuck in the middle with her best feature being that courage 3. Han kills better and Leia supports better. Her cards are also very situational.

Quick thinking, nimble, red dice, and what ever DIO offers Iden(a freaking heath and shield at least) will make her a beast to kill. I would say she is better then Jyn at the moment, but we have not seen everthing and my new theory is that she is support for close combat Cassian/K2.

44 minutes ago, SoonerTed said:

The Emperor wasn't a military target. He was the civilian leader of the government. Yet, one of the key goals of the attack on the second death star was to kill the emperor and overthrow the government . That is a political goal, which by your definition is terrorism.

It's debatable if he's really a civilian leader of the government, since he dismantled the government.

He chose to put himself in a key military target. It's absurd to think the Alliance to Restore the Republic would not have attacked the Death Star II if he hadn't been aboard it. To the extent that "war is the continuation of politics by other means" it can all devolve into a nonsense. But killing the emperor was not meant to spread terror through the populace in order to change policy or bring attention to political views.

12 minutes ago, RyantheFett said:

I would say she is better then Jyn at the moment, but we have not seen everything.

So wait, it can get worse? 😆
Iden did just seem better, but as I don’t play either faction anymore, I wasn’t sure how Jyn played anymore. Also I don’t really have a dog in that fight, but it just looked... lopsided (as far as balance goes).

10 minutes ago, JediPartisan said:

So wait, it can get worse? 😆
Iden did just seem better, but as I don’t play either faction anymore, I wasn’t sure how Jyn played anymore. Also I don’t really have a dog in that fight, but it just looked... lopsided (as far as balance goes).

Worst comes to worst, it might be rebalanced during the next points change? I know that's not the preferred answer, but still.

Also, how sure are we that it says 100 and not 180?

Rebels are terrorists, end of discussion.

The Empire is an oppressive government created by undemocratic means, end of discussion.

2 minutes ago, Caimheul1313 said:

A lso, how sure are we that it says 100 and not 180?

Absolutely 100%

3 minutes ago, Lochlan said:

Absolutely 100%

Why? Did someone see it in person, or is there a better photo somewhere? The article photos aren't great, I have a hard time telling the difference between the 8 in the Rebel Veteran's card and a 0 on other cards.

8 minutes ago, Caimheul1313 said:

Why? Did someone see it in person, or is there a better photo somewhere? The article photos aren't great, I have a hard time telling the difference between the 8 in the Rebel Veteran's card and a 0 on other cards.

Three reasons: 1) to me it is pretty clearly two zeros, not an eight and a zero, 2) there have been many questions about Cassian's cost, but everyone seems to agree on Iden's, and 3) she would be absolute garbage at 180 points. As I pointed out previously, with her sniper rifle she is fairly comparable to Bossk for the same points. She is absolutely NOT comparable to Bossk and Veers together.

12 minutes ago, Caimheul1313 said:

Worst comes to worst, it might be rebalanced during the next points change? I know that's not the preferred answer, but still.

Also, how sure are we that it says 100 and not 180?

Ok, if it’s 180, I’d argue that the empire is getting screwed over. I don’t think she’s worth 180 (even with infinite range sniping). 😅
I just would like to see better balance in the faction’s. I’m not asking for perfect, just kind of close and adding infinite range snipers to two factions that already have so much more than the two new ones, is tipping the balance scale hard in one direction. There isn’t even balance between the two old factions. I know they can eventually fix this, but I was hoping they would fix the older messes first (Tauns & shores/etc).

Before anyone tells me to stop complaining, these criticisms are valid (though perhaps harsh) and honestly I guess I just expect more from such experienced game designers. Is that really wrong?

8 minutes ago, Lochlan said:

Three reasons: 1) to me it is pretty clearly two zeros, not an eight and a zero, 2) there have been many questions about Cassian's cost, but everyone seems to agree on Iden's, and 3) she would be absolute garbage at 180 points. As I pointed out previously, with her sniper rifle she is fairly comparable to Bossk for the same points. She is absolutely NOT comparable to Bossk and Veers together.

That depends on if ID10 has 80 points worth of abilities built in. You could be required to take both models, and ID10 may not have a points cost on the card.

To be clear: I doubt that is the case. You make good points, I was just wondering since I have trouble with the 8 and 0 in the FFG font on the announcement photos.

1 hour ago, JediPartisan said:

So wait, it can get worse? 😆
Iden did just seem better, but as I don’t play either faction anymore, I wasn’t sure how Jyn played anymore. Also I don’t really have a dog in that fight, but it just looked... lopsided (as far as balance goes).

Imperials you can take at face value, rebels are much more synergistic, so I would look at how Jyn works with things like Pathfinders, Cassian etc.

1 hour ago, JediPartisan said:

It does seem odd to me that they just nerfed some snipers, just to add two more infinite range snipers. I thought they said, infinite range would be reserved for special things like air strikes and the like (command card kind of stuff). I wonder if these cards were being printed when they were doing the nerf. Does that mean they will eventually be nerfed.

They said, "Infinite range will also remain an option but can be reserved for particularly special weapons."

These are particularly special weapons imo. I also do not think you want a unit worth +115 to +140 sitting in the back dealing 1 damage at a time lol.

1 hour ago, JediPartisan said:

To which part do you object?

"Why is Cassian’s sniper rifle Cumbersome? At 10 points, it’s incredibly cheap, but cumbersome is a nasty Keyword just to reduce cost by 5 or so (the “or so” is the value difference between 1r1b and 2b) points, compared to Iden’s rifle."

Cassian has tactical 1 (2 with OP), marksman and a infinite range pierce gun with a black and red. this means 2 auto crits almost every turn. combined with very good synergies with Jyn, Cassian would be OP if he could move get 2 aims and then pierce 2 crits through every attack especially on his 1 pip where he would get 3 attack essentially...

Compare it to Iden's Rifle, which is less likely to give hits, meaning even with 2 aims there is a slim chance that she can convert into 2 auto crits. Combine this with no tactical means that it is hard for her to abuse this while strafing the battlefield.

"Perhaps Cassian is 50 points and is out before a points change where the generic rebel commander will be reduced to 40 points. Giving a dodge is not as good as giving an aim, just sayin’. There are many units in the rebel faction that should have a points reduction, but starting at 50, maybe Cassian should have a points increase . 😆 "

Yeah because there would ever be a time where you couldn't afford to upgrade to cassian for 10 points. There are a total of ZERO units that need point reductions on the rebel side. There may be a need to increase the cost of tauntauns, but barely. The game is fairly balanced at it's current state even if there is a clear defined meta. I believe there are somethings that could be increased (tauntauns) or decreased (airspeeder) if there were a new set of balanced changes for all factions. I do not expect this for at least 3 more months, nor do I want it. Cassian should be 90, he is 90 and I am ok with it currently.

"Should Jyn really be worth 10 more points then Iden? I’m not really sure, but I lean toward, no. And please don’t say that Iden’s sniper rifle costs an extra 15 points. Iden just seems a better version of Jyn, though I can be convinced otherwise."

We have no idea if Iden's command cards are as good as Jyn's and we also have no reason to take Jyn out of context of the rebel faction and compare her to Iden directly. Iden is not a "better version" of Jyn because they are two different units that fill different roles. If you want your Iden to be reduced down to the value of a 48 point unit as a long range sniper that crits through blocks every time, go for it, but I guarantee you that it is a waste.

"An infinite range sniper rifle is worth way more than 15. Scouts and Commando need to pay 28 for a range 5 weapon. "

So what about 115? that is the worth of the rifle... Sure, you can run her as a more expensive veers, but I think we both know that attacking every turn with auto crits is too good to miss for 15 points.

25 minutes ago, Caimheul1313 said:

That depends on if ID10 has 80 points worth of abilities built in. You could be required to take both models, and ID10 may not have a points cost on the card.

To be clear: I doubt that is the case. You make good points, I was just wondering since I have trouble with the 8 and 0 in the FFG font on the announcement photos.

I have trouble seeing it as well sometimes, but it is 100. ID10 cannot be required, that is the whole point of the "Counterpart" keyword.

The one problem I have with Iden + ID-10 is sniper cohesion into HC... Smells like aged milk

50 minutes ago, JediPartisan said:

So wait, it can get worse? 😆
Iden did just seem better, but as I don’t play either faction anymore, I wasn’t sure how Jyn played anymore. Also I don’t really have a dog in that fight, but it just looked... lopsided (as far as balance goes).

I usually play it safe when it comes to negative comments. Personally I would say Jyn is bad and the other Rebel leaders are all far better. In fact, if covert ops does allow any unit to become commander I am waaaaay more tempted to put him in a list with operative Luke. The only thing that is holding me back is K2S0's abilities and Cassian's pips. So far they do not look good for her..........or pathfinders, but we shall see.

I much rather have Iden defense then Jyn who may survive an AT-ST all game or die turn 1 to troopers lol. Only thing to really see is what dice Iden can throw at close range and if her other command cards are good.

2 hours ago, JediPartisan said:

For instance, take this list:

Cassian Andor (90 + 22 = 112)
--Offensive Push (4), Hunter (6), Recon Intel (2), A200-CFE Sniper Config (10)

Leia Organa (90 + 8 = 98)
--Electrobinoculars (8)

R2-D2 (35 + 5 = 40)
--Comms Relay (5)

6x Rebel Troopers (40 + 0 = 40)

2x Rebel Commandos (Strike Team) (20 + 28 = 48)
--DH-447 Sniper (28)
2x Tauntaun Riders (90 + 14 = 104)
--Tenacity (4), HQ Uplink (10)

Commands:
Crack Shot (1), No Time for Sorrows (2), Smoke Screen (3),

With this list, Cassian has 3 turns where he gets to move, gain 2 aims from Tactical 2 and then recover and attack. Which turns? Turn 1 from recon intel and 2 other turns of your choice using Smoke Screen and NTFS. You can also use Electro binos on leia for another turn where he doesn't move but still gets 2 aims to almost get 2 auto crits with pierce 1.

Now to be clear, I see how Iden can be abused as well. Take for instance the Mortar. Mortar + Iden gets 2+ crits on avg meaning that for a firesupport you can reliably deal 2 wounds through heavy cover dodges etc. As always with heroes bar Force users, their biggest weakness is pierce, so snipers will still hit Iden and Cassian hard especially since they do not have impervious and dodge tokens can't be used.

1 hour ago, Cleto0 said:

have trouble seeing it as well sometimes, but it is 100. ID10 cannot be required, that is the whole point of the "Counterpart" keyword.

"Counterpart" requires you to have the unit to be able to add the miniature, not that you are required to add the miniature to a given unit.

R2 can be fielded without C3-P0, I'm proposing that it is possible for a new keyword on ID10 (since Iden's card is fairly full of text) that says ID10 HAS to be included in her unit. Or they just make ID10 0 points with Counterpart.

51 minutes ago, Cleto0 said:

Imperials you can take at face value, rebels are much more synergistic, so I would look at how Jyn works with things like Pathfinders, Cassian etc.

That’s an argument I’ve heard a lot especially with clones, and it’s really funny. I’ve heard people argue that BARCs cost more because they can get Fire Supported by clones. In other words, players should pay for clones and their ability to FS, but they should also pay that price for FS on the unit that will be Fire Supported. That’s paying twice for the same ability and that’s exactly what you’re suggesting with Jyn.

51 minutes ago, Cleto0 said:

They said, "Infinite range will also remain an option but can be reserved for particularly special weapons."

These are particularly special weapons imo. I also do not think you want a unit worth +115 to +140 sitting in the back dealing 1 damage at a time lol.

They did say it was reserved for special weapons, but is a unit that can fire every round really special or is a Command Card that can only be played once special. Those units may cost more, but how many Commander/Operative units are range 2 or 3 at best? How often do they get to fire in a game? They can’t fire every round, so it isn’t 6 times. Also one of those 2 new units might be a grand total of 60 points. We’ll have to wait for confirmation.

51 minutes ago, Cleto0 said:

Cassian has tactical 1 (2 with OP), marksman and a infinite range pierce gun with a black and red. this means 2 auto crits almost every turn. combined with very good synergies with Jyn, Cassian would be OP if he could move get 2 aims and then pierce 2 crits through every attack especially on his 1 pip where he would get 3 attack essentially...

Compare it to Iden's Rifle, which is less likely to give hits, meaning even with 2 aims there is a slim chance that she can convert into 2 auto crits. Combine this with no tactical means that it is hard for her to abuse this while strafing the battlefield.

2 auto crits? I’m not sure what kind of dice you’re using, but that seems unlikely to me. So because Cassian can get 1 aim by moving (instead of just taking an aim) that makes him OP. Also if you’re again talking about synergies which means abilities should be paid for twice. What about Veers, he adds aims to snipers lots. By your estimation Scout snipers should also have the cost added to them. You can’t have it both ways. Perhaps getting Gunslinger on his 1 pip is the cause of getting Cumbersome, but that means he’s getting that nerf when he’s not playing that command card as well. There are better ways to limit his 1 pip. Maybe say he can’t use a High Velocity weapon with gunslinger, problem solved and every other round isn’t nerfed. I will grant you it might be his low point cost that also contributed to the Cumbersome, but we still have to wait for confirmation on that total.

51 minutes ago, Cleto0 said:

Yeah because there would ever be a time where you couldn't afford to upgrade to cassian for 10 points. There are a total of ZERO units that need point reductions on the rebel side. There may be a need to increase the cost of tauntauns, but barely. The game is fairly balanced at it's current state even if there is a clear defined meta. I believe there are somethings that could be increased (tauntauns) or decreased (airspeeder) if there were a new set of balanced changes for all factions. I do not expect this for at least 3 more months, nor do I want it. Cassian should be 90, he is 90 and I am ok with it currently.

You and I will probably never agree on balance issues, so I won’t even argue with you, but I will say Rebels need more strong units and if they want to add Cassian at 50 points, I also think it’s a mistake, because the changes that need to be made to Rebels, need to be made more across the entire faction, not just by creating new super units. Then if you don’t take a super unit, you’re not competitive. No, they need to make every unit competitive to play in all factions. There should never be a dud unit.

51 minutes ago, Cleto0 said:

We have no idea if Iden's command cards are as good as Jyn's and we also have no reason to take Jyn out of context of the rebel faction and compare her to Iden directly. Iden is not a "better version" of Jyn because they are two different units that fill different roles. If you want your Iden to be reduced down to the value of a 48 point unit as a long range sniper that crits through blocks every time, go for it, but I guarantee you that it is a waste.

All I can do right now is go by what we see, and for now Jyn and Iden are very comparable (with the exception of having a sniper rifle). The rest, yeah, you may be right, but again having a sniper rifle will mean that round 1 Iden can attack. Jyn can attack round 1 as well with use of Infiltrate, but she will also get shot back at. Infinite range should never be on a unit’s weapon. If you don’t agree, then we should again, agree to disagree.

51 minutes ago, Cleto0 said:

So what about 115? that is the worth of the rifle... Sure, you can run her as a more expensive veers, but I think we both know that attacking every turn with auto crits is too good to miss.

Sorry, I’m not following you on this one. If you’re saying it’s 115 points, it’s not. Iden is 100 points, the sniper rifle is an added 15 and that’s hella cheap, but I may have over reacted to the price since I think giving an infinite range weapon (again) is a bad idea. I was thinking snipers pay 28, but 20 of that is for the mini and 8 is for the weapon (I guess - at least since the last points change), but I think the infinite range weapon should never have been re-added to the game and because of that the price should be impossibly high. The weapon should be range 5 max, which is still bad on that unit, but not very unbalanced like infinite range.

25 minutes ago, Cleto0 said:

With this list, Cassian has 3 turns where he gets to move, gain 2 aims from Tactical 2 and then recover and attack. Which turns? Turn 1 from recon intel and 2 other turns of your choice using Smoke Screen and NTFS. You can also use Electro binos on leia for another turn where he doesn't move but still gets 2 aims to almost get 2 auto crits with pierce 1.

Now to be clear, I see how Iden can be abused as well. Take for instance the Mortar. Mortar + Iden gets 2+ crits on avg meaning that for a firesupport you can reliably deal 2 wounds through heavy cover dodges etc. As always with heroes bar Force users, their biggest weakness is pierce, so snipers will still hit Iden and Cassian hard especially since they do not have impervious and dodge tokens can't be used.

I’m sorry but are you really complaining about Cassian maybe getting two aims in a turn and maybe rolling 2 crits in the current meta with Shores/Mortars/Comms Relay?

4 minutes ago, Caimheul1313 said:

"Counterpart" requires you to have the unit to be able to add the miniature, not that you are required to add the miniature to a given unit.

R2 can be fielded without C3-P0, I'm proposing that it is possible for a new keyword on ID10 (since Iden's card is fairly full of text) that says ID10 HAS to be included in her unit. Or they just make ID10 0 points with Counterpart.

If they do make ID10 zero points, that would make Iden OP, especially if ID10 brings a shield with it. But with Cassian maybe being 50 points, all bets are off. ID10 could very well be zero points.

2 hours ago, RyantheFett said:

My guess is that he can be run either as a sniper stuck for the game in a really good spot or run as an objective/ close range fighter. Depends on what that weapon looks like in close range and what K2 does with him.

Having run Jyn recently I can say she is meh? This expansion may change a lot, but right now she is stuck in the middle with her best feature being that courage 3. Han kills better and Leia supports better. Her cards are also very situational.

Quick thinking, nimble, red dice, and what ever DIO offers Iden(a freaking heath and shield at least) will make her a beast to kill. I would say she is better then Jyn at the moment, but we have not seen everthing and my new theory is that she is support for close combat Cassian/K2.

yeah she is only offensively one of the strongest rebel ranged characters in the game

Cumbersome on Cassians rifle is necessary. Marksman+Tactical+Pierce+Infinite Range+High Velocity would be insane for his cost. Btw his abilities, health and damage are worth way more points than 50. So kiss that idea goodbye.

Also Cassians weapon has Reconfig. You shouldn't complain that much about the card cost, if you don't know what's on the other side

1 hour ago, JediPartisan said:

If they do make ID10 zero points, that would make Iden OP, especially if ID10 brings a shield with it. But with Cassian maybe being 50 points, all bets are off. ID10 could very well be zero points.

ID10 being 0 points was part of my premise for Iden actually being 180, since 100 points seemed to be agreeable to others given the number of abilities she had.