After posting my list I looked online and decided to change my list to one of these to go for more of a points bid. Right now I’m leaning towards List A but I’m still not sure any thoughts are welcomed.

List A

Darth Vader: Hate, Fire Control System

Echo: Juke, Passive Sensors

Sigma Squadron Ace: Juke, Passive Sensors

Points: 191

List B

Darth Vader: Hate, Fire Control System

Echo: Juke, Fire Control System, Targeting Computer

Sigma Squadron Ace: Juke, Fire Control System, Targeting Computer

Points: 195

Any advice is much appreciated.

Thanks in advance for any help.

List A

Passive Sensors is probably better for the Phantoms, since it's the same price as Targeting Computer, and the within-engagement-phase timing is probably better. However, Phantoms don't really need FCS. In general, I don't really think FCS is that great. Heck, even Passive Sensors isn't super vital. Taking Focus most turns is usually about as good. Getting a Lock to set up for future turns is handy, but something which could be cut if need be.

//

As to Vader, I think the common consensus upgrade priority list would be:

1. Afterburners. That can help get Vader into Range 1 for a kill shot, or out of a sticky spot, or do some neat tricks. Vader can also fly over an Asteroid or Gas Cloud, use Afterburners, then use his pilot ability for more actions. Boost is just really good.
2. Passive Sensors or FCS. Both are good picks.
   1. Passive Sensors opens up a great trick, since Vader can use his pilot ability to barrel roll in the engagement phase after he does his lock (a handy tool against going first). This is probably the more popular upgrade these days, but it can also be wasted. If you're the only Init 6, it kind of does nothing, but when you need it, it's very good.
   2. Fire Control System is totally fine on Vader, though. Saving locks means you can often spend fewer force points, which is good.
3. Sense. This is also mostly a hedge against going first. However, it also allows Passive Sensors Vader to build with pretty much no bid. Doesn't always apply to every list, but sometimes it does. Maybe it suits your play style, maybe it doesn't. It's not vital, but some folks swear by it. It's not a "must include" card, just one worth thinking about.
4. Hate. It's OK, but it doesn't see much play. It can also kind of be a substitute for FCS. What FCS does most is save actions which means you save Force. Hate--at it's core--is a force-efficiency card. I think I wouldn't put both Hate and FCS on the same Vader, however, since they kind of do the same thing.

//

Another card worth thinking about is Fifth Brother on Echo. Getting a force charge is pretty good, and allows you to have double-mods when taking a Lock with Passive Sensors (I'd even say Fifth Brother and Passive Sensors kind of need each other to be really great). But the points are tight. I'd only consider it if cutting Juke. Juke might still be pretty good, but it did get rather expensive. If I'm weighting [2 Juke] against [Fifth Brother + 2 Crack Shot + 3 points], I'm not really sure which is better.

Well... I guess 2 Juke is probably best, since if I was taking a Crack Shot/Fifth Brother Echo, I'd swap the Sigma to, like, the Grand Inquisitor or some other ship. Crack Shot Sigma isn't terrible, but there's not really a reason to bring it over something else. And then the list has strayed too far from the original idea.

Building on what BF posted, I'd maybe look at the following as an option:

Darth Vader (67)
Fire Control System (2)
Afterburners (6)

Echo (51)
Juke (7)

Sigma Squadron Ace (48)
Juke (7)

Points: 188

I believe the phantoms are good enough with Juke as their only upgrade, and with a 12 point bid you're usually going to be moving second with your Vader.

Thanks pakirby, theBitterFig and underling.

Based off what theBitterFig and Underling recommend I modified my list slightly. I still want to use Hate on Vader because I’ve never flown Vader before so I like having Hate as a sort of backup for force generation incase I spend a lot of force and misjudge a maneuver next turn. The list still cost 191 points but my friends almost always run lists between 195-200 points so I think the points bid is fine.

Here’s the new list I’m leaning towards List A just not sure if it is better for Vader to have Afterburners or for the Phantoms to have Passive Sensors and run List B .

Any thoughts are welcomed.

List A

Darth Vader: Hate, Fire Control System, Afterburners

Echo: Juke

Sigma Squadron Ace: Juke

Points: 191

Or

List B

Darth Vader: Hate, Fire Control System

Echo: Juke, Passive Sensors

Sigma Squadron Ace: Juke, Passive Sensors

Points: 191

Any opinions on Vader with Afterburners vs 2xPhantoms with Passive Sensors please let me know.

I would go with Afterburners on Vader. I always start my Vader with that upgrade attached and go from there.

The options it gives Vader like theBitterfig described above are very valuable.

vader afterburners passive sensors

echo fifth brother juke

gamma juke

198 punti

vader and phantoms want initiatitive. you don't need bid. so if you find a way to spend last 2 points it's even better

On 12/15/2019 at 8:02 AM, Manolox said:

vader afterburners passive sensors

echo fifth brother juke

gamma juke

198 punti

vader and phantoms want initiatitive. you don't need bid. so if you find a way to spend last 2 points it's even better

One thing you could do is to drop juke from Echo and equip him with outmaneuver and passive sensors. You are losing the double juke there but I think that would be a quite potent Echo.

On ‎12‎/‎14‎/‎2019 at 4:40 PM, theBitterFig said:

Sense. This is also mostly a hedge against going first. However, it also allows Passive Sensors Vader to build with pretty much no bid. Doesn't always apply to every list, but sometimes it does. Maybe it suits your play style, maybe it doesn't. It's not vital, but some folks swear by it. It's not a "must include" card, just one worth thinking about.

Because it gives you information, rather than manoeuvrability, it helps manoeuvrable but low initiative wingmen a lot. I imagine it pairs very well with Echo.

I have been flying Vader with Hate and FCS and I can tell you, you don't need both. Each upgrade is meant to help you save Force Charges, but both at once is just an overkill. I'd rather go Heightened Perception instead. Then you can Initiative Kill other I6 Aces.

Do you think it's worth it? Just to go up 1 point in initiative?

Plus you need the situation where Vader alone is able to kill the guy in one shot, otherwise it's useless.

13 minutes ago, xanatos135 said:

Do you think it's worth it? Just to go up 1 point in initiative?

Plus you need the situation where Vader alone is able to kill the guy in one shot, otherwise it's useless.

There are many times, when I am left with a 1-2 Hull Wedge or Anakin and being able to shoot them down without return fire is massive. It is true, you will not use it every game. But when it comes relevant, it is priceless.

2 hours ago, Magnus Grendel said:

Because it gives you information, rather than manoeuvrability, it helps manoeuvrable but low initiative wingmen a lot. I imagine it pairs very well with Echo.

I think it pairs with Echo only OK. The systems phase goes in ascending Initiative order. Echo needs to decloak at Init 4, but Vader can't peak at a dial until Init 6. Knowing whether Echo will need to barrel roll is handy. For Sense to really shine for Echo, it'll need to be on Seventh Sister or a generic Inquisitor. Then you can sense before you decloak.

40 minutes ago, Schanez said:

There are many times, when I am left with a 1-2 Hull Wedge or Anakin and being able to shoot them down without return fire is massive. It is true, you will not use it every game. But when it comes relevant, it is priceless.

Here's one thing which strikes me about Vader:

Sense, Passive Sensors, Heightened Perception are all cards which are powerful almost exclusively against other Init 6. What does that say about Vader if he can afford to use upgrades which mostly only help against Init 6s? To me, it says Vader ought to be looking over his shoulder in January.

15 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

Here's one thing which strikes me about Vader:

Sense, Passive Sensors, Heightened Perception are all cards which are powerful almost exclusively against other Init 6. What does that say about Vader if he can afford to use upgrades which mostly only help against Init 6s? To me, it says Vader ought to be looking over his shoulder in January.

I don't think so. While he is powerful as a Pilot, the ship leaves a lot to be desired. It's very clunky to fly, not too agile is what I mean. Can do a Barrel Roll, but has no Boost. He also has no Evade action. While I agree, he can be powerful in the right hands... He lacks the dodginess of Aces like Anakin or Soontir, or even Poe.

But I honestly expect a subtle point change for every Force Using Pilot. Luke, Vader, Jedis and Inquisitors, and all the others.