So, I got this weird idea in my head while playing fallen order.

Maybe parry should be available as a standard move? Say that everyone gets effectively rank zero in Parry, meaning that if you have an implement handy, you can spend 3 strain to reduce damage by 2.

Now, minions can't voluntarily spend strain, and the trade off is a net negative for Rivals, so it would only be an issue for PCs and Nemeses.

Would it be unbalanced? Would it be pointless? Would it devalue the specs that do have parry?

Yes, it would devalue those specs, but I've always felt really off about the way melee combat is handled.

Here is an option that just occurred to me though: Defensive/Deflection existed before Parry/Reflect, right? Maybe as well* as providing a bonus to the relevant Defense value, it provides +1 rank in Parry/Reflect? Of course, this would have to be adjudicated on a case-by-case basis. I'm sure there are outliers that I'm not thinking of.

*Because otherwise things like shields become useless without enough strain. As far as PDS go, those are broken and don't make a ton of sense.

I think it'd be both unbalanced (as it makes melee-focused combatants, especially Brawl-based fighters, even less effective) and devalues those specs that have Parry.

In so far as using a random item to deflect an incoming attack, that's a part of what the Guarded Stance maneuver is there for. It allows a PC to focus more on trying not to get clobbered in a fight, but at the expense of their own combat effectiveness. There's also the spending of advantage to give an attacker setback dice, whether it be spending two of them to affect a single foe, or spending 3 to gain a point of defense vs. either melee or ranged attacks.

For may Brawl-based combatants, they almost literally live and die by the margin of wounds they can get in, especially those with Iron Body and the Precision Strike line of talents, as they rely on inflicting critical injuries to take down their foes as opposed to exhausting the target's wound threshold. Since Parry negates part of the damage, an adversary just being able to say "nope, not taking wounds from that" neuters a Brawl fighter's capability, since those two points of negated damage could very well mean the difference between dealing enough wounds to get past the target's soak value and thus have the opportunity to inflict a critical injury.

It also runs into the issue of dragging out melee fights, since rivals and nemeses can auto-reduce damage, with it being even more problematic with nemeses as they generally have a higher wound threshold and better strain threshold than many PCs do, especially in the early going and doubly so if it's a combat-focused nemesis. Thus, it gives even more of a leg up to ranged weapons than they already have (overall higher damage than most melee-based attacks and not having to waste time engaging with a foe).

For those specs that not only offer Parry as a talent but focus on it (Makashi Duelist and Shii-Cho Knight, but also Martial Artist and Steel Hand Adept to an extent), you're taking what is one of their notable traits and just handing it out to whoever wants it.

I guess a related question is would you hand out the mechanical effects of things like Side Step or Defensive Stance, or even Dodge for that matter, just because a PC says "well, on my turn I'm doing what I can to avoid getting hit"? I'm willing to bet the answer is "no," since dodging/evading/blocking is generally presumed to be rolled into the attacker's base difficulty provided the target generally isn't helpless or otherwise completely incapable of defending themselves.

I agree with Donovan, melee and brawl are already under powered compared to range combat. Giving everyone the parry ability would hamper those 2 styles even further.

3 hours ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

I think it'd be both unbalanced (as it makes melee-focused combatants, especially Brawl-based fighters, even less effective) and devalues those specs that have Parry.

In so far as using a random item to deflect an incoming attack, that's a part of what the Guarded Stance maneuver is there for. It allows a PC to focus more on trying not to get clobbered in a fight, but at the expense of their own combat effectiveness. There's also the spending of advantage to give an attacker setback dice, whether it be spending two of them to affect a single foe, or spending 3 to gain a point of defense vs. either melee or ranged attacks.

For may Brawl-based combatants, they almost literally live and die by the margin of wounds they can get in, especially those with Iron Body and the Precision Strike line of talents, as they rely on inflicting critical injuries to take down their foes as opposed to exhausting the target's wound threshold. Since Parry negates part of the damage, an adversary just being able to say "nope, not taking wounds from that" neuters a Brawl fighter's capability, since those two points of negated damage could very well mean the difference between dealing enough wounds to get past the target's soak value and thus have the opportunity to inflict a critical injury.

It also runs into the issue of dragging out melee fights, since rivals and nemeses can auto-reduce damage, with it being even more problematic with nemeses as they generally have a higher wound threshold and better strain threshold than many PCs do, especially in the early going and doubly so if it's a combat-focused nemesis. Thus, it gives even more of a leg up to ranged weapons than they already have (overall higher damage than most melee-based attacks and not having to waste time engaging with a foe).

For those specs that not only offer Parry as a talent but focus on it (Makashi Duelist and Shii-Cho Knight, but also Martial Artist and Steel Hand Adept to an extent), you're taking what is one of their notable traits and just handing it out to whoever wants it.

I guess a related question is would you hand out the mechanical effects of things like Side Step or Defensive Stance, or even Dodge for that matter, just because a PC says "well, on my turn I'm doing what I can to avoid getting hit"? I'm willing to bet the answer is "no," since dodging/evading/blocking is generally presumed to be rolled into the attacker's base difficulty provided the target generally isn't helpless or otherwise completely incapable of defending themselves.

Great input!

First of all, I dont mind if melee got a little depowered. It should be compared to blasters. I mean, Chewbacca is touted as being deadly up close, yet he's more likely to take cover and shoot rather than charge.

On the other hand, completely negating brawlers would be annoying and unwanted. Didn't occur to me that Rivals, while taking more damage than they would've from a hit, could still negate it enough to prevent a crit.

While I'm not a fan of the optimized melee builds like wookiees and trandoshans charging into blaster fire, I'd rather see that happen occasionally than completely neuter the more casual brawlers.

What would you want to accomplish with this change?

I can sympathize with the thought process behind this, because I used to feel that combat was.. well, boring. As a GM it seemed people were exchanging blows and every shot fired would hit without any real ability to prevent it. It didn't make sense to me that someone who has learned to wield a lightsaber couldn't parry, and combat seemed really limiting.

Eventually, I realized that it was my approach to combat that was boring (Not saying you're being boring, but hear me out). Instead of just "Minion group 1 fire a shot (dice noise) and it hits... for 7 damage" I started to embellish the combat, and from then on I thought of the rolls people make as the defining highlights of the fight.

For example; a PC is fighting a group of minions who are all trying to shoot him. The minion group only gets one collective roll, and it hits for x damage. But the narrative is that you have a group of people shooting and the player is furiously trying to stop as much of it as possible with his lightsaber, but alas some of the blaster bolts get through and the PC get gets some burns as the shots graze him.

To Donovan's point, you can describe this narrative if the player takes the Guarded Stance maneuver. Using the parry or reflect skill is for a player that has the skill to defend at the same time as whatever else is going on without sacrificing offense (relating back to Jedi: Fallen Order, there's a specific skill to deflect while wall-running) and it makes sense that only the more skilled individuals can do it.

53 minutes ago, Stan Fresh said:

What would you want to accomplish with this change?

This, boys and girls, is the most important question.

Honestly? I thought the scout troopers with stun batons in Fallen Order were fun and was looking for a way to make minor enemies feel like more active participants in melee combat.

Of course, considering that this is of limited use to Minions and Rivals, and only makes Jedi feel less powerful, rather than more fun, I've obviously bogged myself down in the mechanics while losing sight of the outcome.

Or as expressed in memes...

As it's easy to get defensive about your ideas because they're yours rather than good, I want to thank you guys for pointing out, respectfully, but in no uncertain terms, that this was a bad idea.

1 hour ago, penpenpen said:

Honestly? I thought the scout troopers with stun batons in Fallen Order were fun and was looking for a way to make minor enemies feel like more active participants in melee combat.

If I were looking to replicate scout troopers as that game portrays them, I'd treat them as Rivals with a fairly low wound threshold (probably an 8, no higher than 10), a single rank of Adversary, and a point of melee defense from either their batons or by giving them the Defensive Training talent. I think most of Cal's early troubles in getting through their guard isn't so much that the troopers are using Parry, but that Cal's lightsaber skills are fairly rusty at that point in time, enough so that a difficulty pool of 1 challenge, 1 difficulty, and 1 setback means he's got to work to take them down, and that without improving his skill he's probably going to need more than one successful attack (even using a Damage 6, Breach 1 lightsaber) to do the job.

I assert that effectively parrying or blocking an incoming blow requires some level of relevant combat training.

To that end I don't have a problem requiring a talent, esp. since you can get level or two of parry in a few non-lightsaber specs.

If you really wanted a non-lightsaber melee specialist you could adapt the Shii-Cho Knight spec as well.

For non-trained characters the narrative style of the system works. A miss can be described as having been blocked.

I also theorize, without any play-testing, that giving it without a buy in would be somewhat unbalancing.