Christmas is around the corner and I'm looking forward to some new toys to play with. I've started trying to play around with epic lists for scum. I'd be interested what C-ROC builds people have been trying and also which wings people think work well. My first attempt is below. I'm worried that the C-ROC is too fat but I'm hoping it will get to go out in a blaze of fire over a round or two with loads of bonus attacks.

It seems to me that Serissu and Drea are natural wing leaders. I only have three y-wings and four M3-As currently or I'd be tempted to ditch the gunrunners and just add to those two wings.

Drea Renthal (49)
Dorsal Turret (3)
Cloaking Device (5)
Veteran Wing Leader (2)

Ship total: 59 Half Points: 30 Threshold: 4

Syndicate Smugglers (58)
Ordnance Tubes (2)
Cikatro Vizago (1)
Perceptive Copilot (8) (hmm - IG-88D probably better ...)
Bombardment Specialists (6)
Boosted Scanners (8)
Contraband Cybernetics (3)
Merchant One (8)
Corsair Refit (15)
Ion Cannon Turret (5)
Cluster Missiles (5)
Sensor Experts (10)

Ship total: 129 Half Points: 65 Threshold: 8

Serissu (40)
Elusive (3)
Stealth Device (8)
Heavy Laser Cannon (4)
Veteran Wing Leader (2)

Ship total: 57 Half Points: 29 Threshold: 2

Cartel Spacer (28)
Heavy Laser Cannon (4)

Ship total: 32 Half Points: 16 Threshold: 2

Cartel Spacer (28)
Heavy Laser Cannon (4)

Ship total: 32 Half Points: 16 Threshold: 2

Cartel Spacer (28)
Heavy Laser Cannon (4)

Ship total: 32 Half Points: 16 Threshold: 2

Crymorah Goon (31)
Ion Cannon Turret (5)
Veteran Turret Gunner (8)

Ship total: 44 Half Points: 22 Threshold: 4

Crymorah Goon (31)
Ion Cannon Turret (5)
Veteran Turret Gunner (8)

Ship total: 44 Half Points: 22 Threshold: 4

Jakku Gunrunner (32)
Ship total: 32 Half Points: 16 Threshold: 3

Jakku Gunrunner (32)
Ship total: 32 Half Points: 16 Threshold: 3


Total: 493

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Questions:

- Is the C-ROC too fat (i.e. is it going to die before ever getting to shoot? If so, should I invest in the 'Stalwart Captain' - assuming that means I still get to shoot??)

- Is cloaking / Cikatro to protect Drea worth it?

- Are Elusive / Stealth Device on Serissu worth it? (I'm assuming that passing off the damage to wing mates will make the Stealth Device last longer)

- Any suggestions on alternatives to two Gunrunners?

I like your list as a whole but have some comments (from my game, may or may not be relevant).

• Your army seems very C-ROC centered, so as you suspect it is quite heavy on the points. Which I guess for epic/huge ship games is viable. Keep it alive and you will have fun. But if it goes down fast what is the backup plan? Keep in mind with only 2 shields, crits early on could hurt bad.
• For my game the C-ROC was a pretty good tank, so keeping it alive with Serissu is a nice plan. Also, Drea with C-ROC, well, rocks. But I feel the list needs some element that can go for choice enemies/flank targets. (*Edit. Upon further checking I realise I might have missed exactly this. Serissu wing is the flanker, not there to keep C-ROC alive)
• I'm also missing what Vizago is doing there? It has been FAQ'd and ruled on. Cloaking Device doesn't work with C-ROC. And Contraband Cybernetics also doesn't work with huge ships (well, it does but stress only comes after energy has been used up). So I'm guessing here that your plan is to give the Cybernetics to Drea once the cloak has been used up? Can work, but probably easier to just have the Cybernetics on Drea from the start. Trust the wingmen to keep Drea alive. I wouldn't bother with the cloak. *Edit... actually, I believe the Cloaking device can't even be moved onto the C-ROC under the current wording. So you will have to store the Cybernetics on someone else for the swap, if you really want to go that route.
• Lastly about the C-ROC itself.
  • It kinda looks like you want to do a bit of everything, which can work, or can be a trap.
  • Perceptive Co-pilot tells me you want to be taking a Focus action.
  • Bombardment specialist tells me you want to lock->calculate, because without the calc the upgrade does nothing. (so yeah, even without other IGs I would go for 88D crew instead)
  • Sensor experts also have the lock->calculate, but keep in mind that you can still only take each action once.
  • Why do you have corsair refit? I get it gives you another potential shot, but is it worth the points? Maybe if you added a cannon so you could make a shot with it. I suggest jamming cannon. You shoot before the big huge ships, and jamming them hurts. Or leave it off altogether, have some more shields to keep you alive and away from crits longer.
    • Merchant One alreadt gives you the bonus turret attack (without using energy).
    • Ordnance tubes already gives you the bonus missile attack (without using energy).

Anyways, just my thoughts. I had 1 game so far with my C-ROC, so I'm hardly an expert. Would like to hear how it plays.

@Bort , thanks for responding and helping me think this through.

• I had been planning to cloak Drea. Cikatro was there simply to move the cloaking device anywhere else so that I wasn't forced to decloak.
• Correct on the Serissu wing. I think it would be a particular threat to other huge ships because bullseye arc should be easier to get the HLCs going.
• On the C-ROC, the goal would be to try and get three target locks while still beyond range 3 (Boosted Scanners / Sensor Experts), and then unload the following round with a primary attack, two cluster missile attacks, which are potentially two attacks each (Corsair / Tubes) and the ion cannon attack (Merchant One). So maybe six attacks. The 180 degree front arc for missiles helping with this. Does this all stack up? Up to six attacks, right??!

The configuratin of your C-Roc needs some tweaking:

- Your ion cannont turret and cluster missiles are all range 1-2. That means only your primary weapon fires at range 3. So 129 points of equipment that could end up only firing at 30% capacity is not ideal.
- Boosted scanners mainly benefit very long range attacks, like turbo lasers. In the case of scum, you don't need it. IG-88D and Lando will grant you the full dice modification that you would need to fire a targeting battery for a much lower cost and action / energy economy.

After a couple of games, my gut feeling is that the Corsair refit is designed for when you want to field 2 (relatively) cheap C-Rocs, like maybe:
- Corsair Refit
- Concussion missiles
- Damage contrl team
- Ion cannon battery

Total 88 points each.

Sacrifice survivability for long range firepower and lots of attacks. That's just my gut feeling however.

55 minutes ago, dotswarlock said:

Your ion cannont turret and cluster missiles are all range 1-2. That means only your primary weapon fires at range 3. So 129 points of equipment that could end up only firing at 30% capacity is not ideal.

Bombardment specialists helps here, spending calculates to increase range if necessary (although I would prefer to hold on to them for modifying attacks).

57 minutes ago, dotswarlock said:

Boosted scanners mainly benefit very long range attacks

Yeah - I'd been thinking of getting target locks at range and then focus for full mods originally. The TL to linked calculate action / IG-88D kind of renders that superfluous.

Not sure I want Lando though. Hoping for three TLs, two calculates and Drea.

I think that your C-ROC is way overbuilt. I could take 2 C-ROCs for that much! I prefer them lightweight with PDL, around 70-80 pts. Like a Decimator with 4 TIE Fighters strapped to it, for the cost of 1 Decimator. Add Tibanna Reserves to refuel the PDL and Drea nearby for rerolls, and you've got yourself a pretty efficient tank that can overwhelm fighters and huge ships (if you can strip reinforce off them) with shear volume of attacks

On 12/10/2019 at 11:07 AM, Bort said:

• • Why do you have corsair refit? I get it gives you another potential shot, but is it worth the points? Maybe if you added a cannon so you could make a shot with it. I suggest jamming cannon. You shoot before the big huge ships, and jamming them hurts. Or leave it off altogether, have some more shields to keep you alive and away from crits longer.
    • Merchant One alreadt gives you the bonus turret attack (without using energy).
    • Ordnance tubes already gives you the bonus missile attack (without using energy).

Corsair refit gives him the missile slot so that he can use the ordnance tubes at all.

@Enigami - Thanks! That's certainly a lot more points efficient

Are you ever tempted by bombardment specialists / IG-88D to potentially increase the range of a couple of those Point Defense Battery attacks (or just for linked actions and extra mods?)

Something like this:

Syndicate Smugglers (58)
Point-Defense Battery (10)
IG-88D (3)
Bombardment Specialists (6)
Tibanna Reserves (3)

Ship total: 80 Half Points: 40 Threshold: 8

1 hour ago, eljms said:

@Enigami - Thanks! That's certainly a lot more points efficient

Are you ever tempted by bombardment specialists / IG-88D to potentially increase the range of a couple of those Point Defense Battery attacks (or just for linked actions and extra mods?)

Something like this:

Syndicate Smugglers (58)
Point-Defense Battery (10)
IG-88D (3)
Bombardment Specialists (6)
Tibanna Reserves (3)

Ship total: 80 Half Points: 40 Threshold: 8

Probably not worth it, too weak attacks, especially at range 3+. That said, for the price that's a tanky ship. Damage control team is probably straight up better though for reinforce>2x calculate link, and then you can use the other action for lock/focus/tibanna/whatever.

Ok - so taking a couple of the suggestions:

- Lean C-ROC

- Letting the wings protect Serissu / Drea

I'm at the following:

Drea Renthal (49)
Dorsal Turret (3)
Veteran Turret Gunner (8)
Veteran Wing Leader (2)

Ship total: 62 Half Points: 31 Threshold: 4

Syndicate Smugglers (58)
Point-Defense Battery (10)
IG-88D (3)
Damage Control Team (3)

Ship total: 74 Half Points: 37 Threshold: 8

Serissu (40)
Heavy Laser Cannon (4)
Veteran Wing Leader (2)

Ship total: 46 Half Points: 23 Threshold: 2

Cartel Spacer (28)
Heavy Laser Cannon (4)

Ship total: 32 Half Points: 16 Threshold: 2

Cartel Spacer (28)
Heavy Laser Cannon (4)

Ship total: 32 Half Points: 16 Threshold: 2

Cartel Spacer (28)
Heavy Laser Cannon (4)

Ship total: 32 Half Points: 16 Threshold: 2

Crymorah Goon (31)
Ion Cannon Turret (5)
Veteran Turret Gunner (8)

Ship total: 44 Half Points: 22 Threshold: 4

Crymorah Goon (31)
Ion Cannon Turret (5)
Veteran Turret Gunner (8)

Ship total: 44 Half Points: 22 Threshold: 4

Jakku Gunrunner (32)
Ship total: 32 Half Points: 16 Threshold: 3

Jakku Gunrunner (32)
Ship total: 32 Half Points: 16 Threshold: 3


Total: 430

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Current questions:

• What to do with the 70 points?
  • Buy another y-wing! or M3-A.
  • If I drop the gunrunners, I could introduce a Fang Fighter wing (I have 3)
    • No obvious wing leader ability to exploit and I'd have to trim something even to get a higher initiative pilot
  • Fly Han behind the C-ROC for lots of obstructed shots
    • Does that work?
  • Add something that drops bombs
    • Nym?
    • Have to trim something to get Emon
  • I like the idea of a party bus but I think it would be too vulnerable against huge ship attacks (Turbo Laser Battery in particular)
  • ???

As a sidenote, that applies to all huge ships... they activate on very high initiative, and that makes their coordinate action very valuable, you can sometimes coordinate arc dodges after i6 ships move.

This is just 78 points...

Syndicate Smugglers (58)
Ion Cannon Battery (6)
Tactical Officer (6)
Comms Team (8)

Ship total: 78 Half Points: 39 Threshold: 8


Total: 78

2 shots and up to 3 coordinates at initiative 7. Add optimized power core if you want to keep it up(indefinite 2 shots, 2 coordinates after energy runs out the first time).

4 minutes ago, eljms said:

Current questions:

• What to do with the 70 points?
  • Buy another y-wing! or M3-A.
  • If I drop the gunrunners, I could introduce a Fang Fighter wing (I have 3)
    • No obvious wing leader ability to exploit and I'd have to trim something even to get a higher initiative pilot
  • Fly Han behind the C-ROC for lots of obstructed shots
    • Does that work?
  • Add something that drops bombs
    • Nym?
    • Have to trim something to get Emon
  • I like the idea of a party bus but I think it would be too vulnerable against huge ship attacks (Turbo Laser Battery in particular)
  • ???

Have you got Kihraxzes? Drop the gunrunners and you can have talonbane with afterburners and predator with 2 generic wingmates.

On 12/11/2019 at 11:06 AM, Cerebrawl said:

Have you got Kihraxzes? Drop the gunrunners and you can have talonbane with afterburners and predator with 2 generic wingmates.

I have two currently - wouldn't be averse to getting another.

I've been pondering whether gunrunners may be super useful in splitting an opponent's wings. If I'm reading it right, tractoring results in a ship being forcibly split from the wing (even if it's not moved). That could be great for taking out a wing leader.

11 minutes ago, eljms said:

I have two currently - wouldn't be adverse to getting another.

I've been pondering whether gunrunners may be super useful in splitting an opponents wings. If I'm reading it right, tractoring results in a ship being forcibly split from the wing (even if it's not moved). That could be great for taking out a wing leader.

3 Kihraxz is a good number to have.

As for gunrunners I keep thinking they're too fragile, if you spend the action to tractor you've then got ships that have 5 hull, no shield, behind 2 agility, and no tokens, also very slow ships that can have trouble getting into range to use their ability before getting shot up. If you're in range to move to range 1 and tractor with them, you were in range to be shot the turn before. Maybe they make good bait?

1 hour ago, Cerebrawl said:

As for gunrunners I keep thinking they're too fragile

Yeah - this is fair. Cloaking them is an option but that's points for cloak, Cikatro and something to swap in so it adds up. Cloaking helps in one of two ways. Either making them less fragile, or helping them close quickly with the decloak.

20 hours ago, Cerebrawl said:

Corsair refit gives him the missile slot so that he can use the ordnance tubes at all.

Oh right. For some reason I thought the tubes gave the slots as well.

On 12/11/2019 at 9:00 AM, Cerebrawl said:

As a sidenote, that applies to all huge ships... they activate on very high initiative, and that makes their coordinate action very valuable, you can sometimes coordinate arc dodges after i6 ships move.

This is just 78 points...

Syndicate Smugglers (58)
Ion Cannon Battery (6)
Tactical Officer (6)
Comms Team (8)

Ship total: 78 Half Points: 39 Threshold: 8


Total: 78

2 shots and up to 3 coordinates at initiative 7. Add optimized power core if you want to keep it up(indefinite 2 shots, 2 coordinates after energy runs out the first time).

I like this. But you don't need the Tactical Officer, as the Comms Team adds a white coordinate linked to calculate. I may try this running next to my Point Defense Battery C-ROC. The two together would be potent. Maneuvering them in something like a formation will certainly require a little practice, but I like the idea. A lot.

Thinking about Serissu for a second... she seems like a great candidate for Jamming Beam. Getting rid of tokens (particularly Reinforce) will really open up an enemy huge ship to a lot of damage. HLC will probably do 2 or 3 damage, due to an opposing reinforce. If you make three other shots into that huge ship, the damage is a lot better if you can jam it off.

1 hour ago, theBitterFig said:

Getting rid of tokens (particularly Reinforce)

Is it established that the jammer gets to pick which green token to remove? There's a thread here , but no conclusion as far as I could tell.

Last I heard, all the top judges were letting folks pick which green token, and that's good enough for me. However, there might be players out there who try to weasel out of it.

There's also a rule of thumb that the player who causes the effect makes the choices. We see that among other things with how tractored has been clarified to work(by RAW the opponent chooses, but it's been clarified that they meant the person causing the effect). But yes, it's written badly(ambiguously).

Arguments that the person causing the effect only picks category are extreme rules lawyering.

34 minutes ago, Cerebrawl said:

There's also a rule of thumb that the player who causes the effect makes the choices. We see that among other things with how tractored has been clarified to work(by RAW the opponent chooses, but it's been clarified that they meant the person causing the effect). But yes, it's written badly(ambiguously).

Arguments that the person causing the effect only picks category are extreme rules lawyering.

I think it's worth noting that this isn't a case where the written rule is contradicted by later rulings: this is a case where there are two valid ways to read the words. Both sides are RAW . If we just look at the text in bold/blue: " When a ship becomes jammed, the player whose effect caused the ship to gain the jam token chooses for the ship to either remove one of its green tokens or break one of its locks." we wouldn't have a problem at all with the jammer picking which token. I won't deny that it's possible to read the sentence such that the PWECTSTGT-Jam-token only chooses between green or lock and not within green, but both are valid. There's a segment of the rules community which, when taking any alternate reading into consideration, will immediately declare it the only possible reading, and that anything else isn't following RAW.

As to Tractor, maybe once it was ambiguously worded, but it isn't just clarified externally but explicit in the rules. Checking some older PDFs, it's been explicit in the rules in this way since at least RR 1.02, from October 2018.

It is an interesting choice for Serissu. The range is only 1-2, so that's a factor flying in a wing of HLC carriers. It's also nowhere near as effective against anything other than huge ships (although I absolutely was considering the Serissu wing as a kind of huge ship hunting wing). It made me wonder if I'm going to jam with Serissu whether I should be sticking with HLC or trying autoblasters / marksmanship and trying to get crits with the wingmates. That would fit better with getting the wing in close, and crits are presumably going to be a headache for huge ships.

On 12/11/2019 at 11:59 AM, eljms said:

Ok - so taking a couple of the suggestions:

- Lean C-ROC

- Letting the wings protect Serissu / Drea

I'm at the following:

Drea Renthal (49)
Dorsal Turret (3)
Veteran Turret Gunner (8)
Veteran Wing Leader (2)

Syndicate Smugglers (58)
Point-Defense Battery (10)
IG-88D (3)
Damage Control Team (3)

Serissu (40)
Heavy Laser Cannon (4)
Veteran Wing Leader (2)

Cartel Spacer (28)
Heavy Laser Cannon (4)

Cartel Spacer (28)
Heavy Laser Cannon (4)

Cartel Spacer (28)
Heavy Laser Cannon (4)

Crymorah Goon (31)
Ion Cannon Turret (5)
Veteran Turret Gunner (8)

Crymorah Goon (31)
Ion Cannon Turret (5)
Veteran Turret Gunner (8)

Jakku Gunrunner (32)

Jakku Gunrunner (32)

Total: 430

View in Yet Another Squad Builder 2.0

Current questions:

• What to do with the 70 points?
  • Buy another y-wing! or M3-A.
  • If I drop the gunrunners, I could introduce a Fang Fighter wing (I have 3)
    • No obvious wing leader ability to exploit and I'd have to trim something even to get a higher initiative pilot
  • Fly Han behind the C-ROC for lots of obstructed shots
    • Does that work?
  • Add something that drops bombs
    • Nym?
    • Have to trim something to get Emon
  • I like the idea of a party bus but I think it would be too vulnerable against huge ship attacks (Turbo Laser Battery in particular)
  • ???

Just wanted to chime in that I think the Jakku Gunrunners are a neat choice here. Is your opponent really going to shoot Gunrunners instead of the C-ROC? Or instead of double-tap Y-wings? Or Heavy Laser Cannon M3-As? With the M3-As equipped to take on enemy huge ships, I think there is value in having a little ship to tractor enemy fighters to help the Y-wings or C-ROC do more consistent damage (by taking enemy green dice out of the equation).

As to the remaining 70 points, I personally like the idea of a large or medium ship to just be a nuisance. Ideally it's something that can do a lot of damage or disruption if your opponent decides to dump all fire into the C-ROC.

Shadowport Hunter (58)
- Ketsu Onyou (5)
- Shadowcaster (3)

That's 66 points that can make a single ship have a really bad Tractor day. Ten health behind two agility isn't bad, and a large base takes up some real estate to block up enemy lanes. I like the idea of Emon, but he's a little expensive for what you have leftover. If you really want to try him out, I don't think there's anything wrong with dropping a Gunrunner to get Emon on the field. Nym with title, Trajectroy Simulator and Bomblets also fits well in the 70 point pocket. All of these ships have the advantage of being strong against non-huge ships, which is good because your M3-As already have that taken care of.

OH! I almost forgot! That Shadowport Hunter leaves 4 points leftover, so you can throw the Broken Horn title on your C-ROC to help it go fast and get its defense die without spending energy.

Got to play epic at last and put some of this to the test. Funnily, my friend had come up with almost exactly the same concept (Drea wing - 5xYs, Serissu wing - 6xM3As, Serissu Jamming Beam and the others HLC, and a cheap C-ROC). He tried Boba on the C-ROC to turn it into a battering ram, looking to smash into one of my wings early on in the game.

To avoid a mirror match, I pulled out a Raider with a Howlrunner wing (6 TIEs) and a Soontir wing (3 Interceptors).

Serissu jamming followed by HLC fire was brutal. He took my raider out in two rounds of combat. I actually think he could have killed it in one round if he'd got everything lined up. The Drea wing was also very tough. It took multiple rounds of fire to finally kill Drea.

I'm still interested in how you isolate and kill wing leaders. Their effects have a big impact on the game. I'm looking forward to trying the quads to see if that works or whether they just get targeted first (and if they do, whether that's ok).

Lessons learnt:

• Afterburners on wing leaders is super helpful
• Stalwart captain on a huge ship is probably a good buy if you're majoring on firepower. 8 points for four more attacks seems worth it.
• C-ROC battering ram is kind of annoying. Not because I lost ships to it, but because I was constantly worrying about it making positioning hard. And they're so cheap it doesn't feel like good value to target them early (16HP, plus shield regen for what? < 70 points)
• Deadman switch on the C-ROC is a great option
• Jamming beam on Serissu was brutal. Probably the equivalent of 8 damage in one round through no reinforce