Looking at the few wave 8 upgrades we know about that are not exclusive to the ships in the wave.

https://nichurz.wixsite.com/mysite/blog/the-known-wave-8-upgrades

You don’t like the idea of a Neb B Escort frigate shooting squads With 2 dice at Red Range?

Shame.

11 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

You don’t like the idea of a Neb B Escort frigate shooting squads With 2 dice at Red Range?

Shame.

Have it be backed up with Home One if you expect a lot of Scatter Aces, and Vangaurd could add rerolls with C&S or Sensor Team.

1 hour ago, Drasnighta said:

You don’t like the idea of a Neb B Escort frigate shooting squads With 2 dice at Red Range?

Shame.

I don't think it works that way because the first step is declaring a targeting and that target must me in range of the fireing arc, then gather dice it triggers before dice are gathered, but not before a targeting is declared. I could be wrong and that makes them a little more interesting, but still pretty bad IMO.

59 minutes ago, xero989 said:

I don't think it works that way because the first step is declaring a targeting and that target must me in range of the fireing arc, then gather dice it triggers before dice are gathered, but not before a targeting is declared. I could be wrong and that makes them a little more interesting, but still pretty bad IMO.

The target just needs to be in firing range (ie within long range) next step is gathering dice appropriate for the range of attack. Since the HFZ dice swap happens before the gather dice part, you can target something at long range, swap your blur armament for reds, then gather the red dice for your attack.

1 hour ago, ThatAsianKid1 said:

The target just needs to be in firing range (ie within long range) next step is gathering dice appropriate for the range of attack. Since the HFZ dice swap happens before the gather dice part, you can target something at long range, swap your blur armament for reds, then gather the red dice for your attack.

The first step is declare target and the target must be in "attack range."

Attack range is defined as "the rang at which a squadron or ship hull zone can perform an attack determined by the armament it is using."

So HFZ triggers before gathering dice, but after a target is declared and you can not choice a target outside your ships attack range as determined by its armament in our case 2 blues mean medium range, since the switch to red does not happen during the declare target step.

Your armament does change to red but this after a target has been declared so if you already had a red dice sure your blue would become a red and you could chuck it a long, but if you have two blues you could not declare a target at long range as that is outside your attack range and thus an invalid target because of your armament currently during the declare target step is restricted to medium range.

Edit: I think I can see how it can work, but the limit of the declare target must be within "attack range" and the definition of attack range and the timing of the armament switch is what makes me take pause. I feel in order to let the ship attack squadrons at long range the timing would have to be "during the declare target step"

Its the same logic as Ackbar, you need to be able to shoot the target before all the modifications happen. That's why HFZ is meh unless the wording is updated.

18 minutes ago, antisocialmunky said:

Its the same logic as Ackbar, you need to be able to shoot the target before all the modifications happen. That's why HFZ is meh unless the wording is updated.

Except it’s not a MODIFICATION of the dice , as Ackbar is.

Modify dice is a very specific set of rules.

Ackbar is stopped by obstruction, because that happens after gather and roll.

These are before gathering dice.

People just assume check range is “check to see if it is in range of your dice”, rather than “see what range it is at...”

Think of it as step one being “log the range”. Step two as “gather the dice you have at that range.”

Common sense says that this upgrade lets your Neb B shoot squadrons at long range. Otherwise the card would be a very sideways 'upgrade' and be utterly useless. And the fact is says replace the dice in your armament rather then dice pool must mean something.

I'm wondering how the upgrade goes on a couple HH scouts with TF-O. You get the re-rolls and exhausting TF-O only prevents attacking ships.

Jaina's Light with Draven with C.F token and dial would be interesting too. That is 3 dice with a re-roll against an intel squadron, which is unable to hide at long range.

MC80-Assault with Draven and Leading Shots can absolutely melt squadrons with counter (and intel). Add a light screen of Z-headhunters as that was their biggest counter.

3 hours ago, xero989 said:

The first step is declare target and the target must be in "attack range."

Attack range is defined as "the rang at which a squadron or ship hull zone can perform an attack determined by the armament it is using."

So HFZ triggers before gathering dice, but after a target is declared and you can not choice a target outside your ships attack range as determined by its armament in our case 2 blues mean medium range, since the switch to red does not happen during the declare target step.

Your armament does change to red but this after a target has been declared so if you already had a red dice sure your blue would become a red and you could chuck it a long, but if you have two blues you could not declare a target at long range as that is outside your attack range and thus an invalid target because of your armament currently during the declare target step is restricted to medium range.

Edit: I think I can see how it can work, but the limit of the declare target must be within "attack range" and the definition of attack range and the timing of the armament switch is what makes me take pause. I feel in order to let the ship attack squadrons at long range the timing would have to be "during the declare target step"

As it's formatted in the RRG, the first step in Declare a Target is measuring line of sight and obstruction. Then, you check range and arc based on if you are a ship or squadron.

HFZ adds a new bullet point in this step that changes your armament. So it would be like this:

1. Declare target; check line of sight and obstruction

-change battery armament with HFZ

-Measure arc and attack range using your armament (which is now red via HFZ)

2. Gather Dice

2 hours ago, antisocialmunky said:

Its the same logic as Ackbar, you need to be able to shoot the target before all the modifications happen. That's why HFZ is meh unless the wording is updated.

Ackbar adds dice to your attack pool. HFZ completely changes your armament before any dice are gathered.

2 hours ago, Drasnighta said:

People just assume check range is “check to see if it is in range of your dice”

Except that is what the RR says to do "declare a target that is inside the firing arc and at attack range "

What is attack range?

"Attack Range is the range at which a squadron or a ship hull zone can perform an attack as determined by the armament it is using."

"a hull zone's maximum attack range is.. medium range if it has at least one blue die."

so we are told the target we pick must be in attack range, how do we determine that? the RR says by the dice in our armament. our next step is roll attack dice and the first part of this step is gather dice, so I could buy that by saying before gathering dice they mean during the declare target step, but I have a hard time buying I can declare a target that is not within attack range, as attack range is defined in the RR, limited by the dice in my armament, and it that armament has not switched to red dice when I am declaring a target I can only declare a target within medium range, as I can only declare a target that is at attack range of the attacking hull zone, again blue dice, meaning medium range, so anything beyond medium range is an invalid target and can not be selected as a target as it is beyond my attack range as defined in the RR.

Maybe I am just getting hung up on the phrase attack range, but phrases like that are important in rules Interpretation. I am not against the card letting long range attack happen, but I have a very hard time seeing how it does that with the RAW, outside of when they say "before gathering dice" they really mean "when declaring the target of an attack."

1 hour ago, ThatAsianKid1 said:

Ackbar adds dice to your attack pool. HFZ completely changes your armament before any dice are gathered.

Still have to be able to make the attack in the first place. Its the same issue as Kallus adding a red die.

10 minutes ago, antisocialmunky said:

Still have to be able to make the attack in the first place. Its the same issue as Kallus adding a red die.

The argument here, is that since the armament is changed before dice are gathered, you CAN make the attack.

HFZ takes place before gathering dice, which can be interpreted as during the Declare Target step. The only thing you need in the first part of declaring target is LOS. Measuring attack range, arc, and HFZ arguably take place in the same timing window, so you can change your armament to red dice before measuring attack range.

Well the key words are 'while attacking.' The point I and some other posters were trying to make is that you can't even start the attack which makes the 'before you gather dice' point irrelevant.

I agree that it would be cool to have red anti-squadron dice on random ships but the only way the spoiled language allows for this is if it applied after you selected an arc for anti-squadron attacks but before declaring the individual anti-squadron attacks. Its always possible that FFG will release different language on the actual cardboard. I do agree that it is pretty weak if it can't hit at long range.

Edit: Rethinking, haven’t reread those steps in a while

On 12/9/2019 at 9:33 PM, antisocialmunky said:

Well the key words are 'while attacking.' The point I and some other posters were trying to make is that you can't even start the attack which makes the 'before you gather dice' point irrelevant.

This is correct. Before gathering dice you must be in attack range. Attack range is determined by the dice currently in your battery or antisquadron armament.

Events that occur “before” a specific step still occur after the step preceding it (and after effects occurring “after” that step.)

It’s silly, but if that’s the final wording, it was poor and weakens the card further.

1 hour ago, The Jabbawookie said:

This is correct. Before gathering dice you must be in attack range. Attack range is determined by the dice currently in your battery or antisquadron armament.

Events that occur “before” a specific step still occur after the step preceding it (and after effects occurring “after” that step.)

It’s silly, but if that’s the final wording, it was poor and weakens the card further.

In which case, the Onager doesn’t work EITHER.

Since it’s been stated that range and LOS is measured from the ship, and dice are gathered from the token (from the stream).

so either our understanding of the rule is wrong, or everyone needs to accept an Onager can’t shoot at longer than long range........

but people seem happy with that.

11 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

In which case, the Onager doesn’t work EITHER.

Since it’s been stated that range and LOS is measured from the ship, and dice are gathered from the token (from the stream).

so either our understanding of the rule is wrong, or everyone needs to accept an Onager can’t shoot at longer than long range........

but people seem happy with that.

I'm fine with onagers not working. If I have to sacrifice Heavy Fire Zone to do it, I'm willing to make that sacrifice.

15 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

so either our understanding of the rule is wrong, or everyone needs to accept an Onager can’t shoot at longer than long range........

Or ignition attacks have an exception and we can’t just decide to ignore the rules elsewhere.

My money’s on that.*

9 minutes ago, The Jabbawookie said:

Or ignition attacks have an exception and we can’t just decide to ignore the rules elsewhere.

My money’s on that.*

Sorry, I thought we were arguing RULES AS WRITTEN .

😛 my main point was:

WHAT IF IT DOESNT?

20 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

Sorry, I thought we were arguing RULES AS WRITTEN .

😛 my main point was:

WHAT IF IT DOESNT?

Then the Onager is bad until they fix it.

Just like HFZ. 😉

5 minutes ago, The Jabbawookie said:

Then the Onager is bad until they fix it.

Just like HFZ. 😉

I do prefer to not break the game.

So I’ll go with it working.

7 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

I do prefer to not break the game.

So I’ll go with it working.

Outside of a casual game, I’ll take breaking intent over breaking rules, which is, by definition, breaking the game.

If such a mess occurs at all.

Whereas I’ll accept beinding a rule if it means hard bought expansions *work at all*