Moving oblong creatures sideways

By Rophan, in Descent: Journeys in the Dark

Corbon, what are you smoking? The template idea is in the FAQ, pages 7-8. I'm reading and applying the FAQ, which is part of the rules.

From the official FAQ:
Q: Can abilities with a radius that don't require Line of Sight (Command, Word of Vaal, Spiritwalker, Kirga's hero ability from Altar of Despair, etc.) go through walls and/or doors? When checking the distance for these abilities, must the target space or figure be reachable by moving a number spaces less than or equal to the radius, or do these abilities work like the Breath example ( fly to anywhere within a template, in this case a square of edge length 2xradius + 1 centered on the figure )?
A: Abilities, not attacks, with a radius may go through doors, but not through walls. These abilities work like the Breath example. Note that attacks cannot go through closed doors.

The wording in knockback is similar to Spiritwalker, which does work with this template idea that I apparently just invented out of thin air. That's why I wonder if knockback works the same way.

And I'm not just making this up now. Go back to page 1 and you'll see my first post in this thread talks about knockback as if it uses this template concept.

mahkra said:

Corbon, what are you smoking? The template idea is in the FAQ, pages 7-8. I'm reading and applying the FAQ, which is part of the rules.

From the official FAQ:
Q: Can abilities with a radius that don't require Line of Sight (Command, Word of Vaal, Spiritwalker, Kirga's hero ability from Altar of Despair, etc.) go through walls and/or doors? When checking the distance for these abilities, must the target space or figure be reachable by moving a number spaces less than or equal to the radius, or do these abilities work like the Breath example ( fly to anywhere within a template, in this case a square of edge length 2xradius + 1 centered on the figure )?
A: Abilities, not attacks, with a radius may go through doors, but not through walls. These abilities work like the Breath example. Note that attacks cannot go through closed doors.

The wording in knockback is similar to Spiritwalker, which does work with this template idea that I apparently just invented out of thin air. That's why I wonder if knockback works the same way.

And I'm not just making this up now. Go back to page 1 and you'll see my first post in this thread talks about knockback as if it uses this template concept.

Fair cop guv, sorry.

Nonetheless, that 'template' idea is specifically for abilities with a radius. It is not for movement. Knockback movement is not an ability at all (it is an effect), and does not have a 'radius'. So the template is not applicable - except that you decided to use a mechanism for one thing to simulate an entirely different mechanism and then created newer difficulties that you have a problem with.

Forget the Template. It isn't applicable and doesn't work anyway. Just follow the rules .

Knockback
After inflicting at least 1 damage (before applying the effects of armor) to a figure with a Knockback attack, the attacker may immediately move each affected target figure up to three spaces (1) away from its current location. The figures must be moved to spaces that do not contain other figures or obstacles that block movement (5). The figure does not actually move through the first two spaces (4) - it is knocked completely over them. As such, this "knockback movement" is not blocked by any intervening figures or obstacles (2) (though a figure cannot be moved through a closed door or wall) .(3)

1. Move the knockbacked target 3 spaces.
2. As specified you may ignore any intervening figures or obstacles .
3. Do not move through closed doors or walls (or by extension anything that counts as such for movement)
4. Do not suffer any effects of entering or leaving the first two spaces.
5. Do not end in a space that contains a figure or obstacle that cannot be moved through.

There is no need to make up any extra rules or concepts or jump through any convoluted hoops.

mahkra said:

Big Remy said:

So if you call it an ability with a radius that follows a template, by this FAQ entry it can pass through a door but not a wall.

So in your example, it could never reach that space since it can't pass through the wall to get there.

But it doesn't have to pass through the wall to get there if you use the radius/template reasoning. If you go up three and then left three, you never leave the template, you never pass through a wall, and you end in a space that is within that template of radius three.

You have to move the figure. Unless Knockback now suddenly teleports the figure instead of moving it using "knockback movement" then it would have to pass through the wall. Which it can't.

Please just listen to Corbon.

Regarding #1:

The rule actually says "move each affected target figure up to 3 spaces away ." If you ignore that last word, it changes the concept. As written, that phrase might mean "move each affected target figure up to 3 spaces," but it also might mean "move each affected target figure [to a space] up to 3 spaces away." And there's more than one way to define "3 spaces away" in this game.

I wasn't trying to make up new rules or concepts; I was simply trying to make sense of the rules that were given to us. Because the knockback rule seemed unclear, I looked to see how comparable rules work, and I found a card with very similar wording that had actually been clarified in the FAQ.

However, all that being said, I just realized something that clears up the ambiguous phrase I've been focused on. "The figure does not actually move through the first two spaces ." That last bit only makes sense if we are counting spaces up to 3.

With my example and the template concept, the figure would actually move through 4 spaces, then stop in the 5th space. (Up, up, up-left, left, left. Going around the wall, not through it, and ending in a space 3 spaces away.) If the figure only ignores effects from the first two spaces but actually passes through 4 (or possibly even more), that potentially breaks the game mechanic.

(If I wanted to nitpick to the point of breaking the rules, I'd argue that if you only move a figure 2 spaces instead of the maximum allowed 3, the figure does not suffer effects from the final space, because that final space is one of "the first two spaces." I think that argument is BS though; I'm not seriously suggesting it. If I were actually trying to argue just to be difficult, that's the type of thing I'd be proposing. All the earlier things I presented were issues I legitimately wondered about.)

Actually I am extremely interested in this Knockback myself, and I tried to search the forums for an answer to my question before creating a new topic, and I found this. I apologize for bringing back such an old topic, but pls help me out here:

Knockback:
After inflicting at least 1 damage (before applying the effects of armor) to a figure with a Knockback attack, the attacker may immediately move each affected target figure up to three spaces away from its current location. The figures must be moved to spaces that do not contain other figures or obstacles that block movement. The figure does not actually move through the first two spaces - it is knocked completely over them. As such, this "knockback movement" is not blocked by any intervening figures or obstacles (though a figure cannot be moved through a closed door or wall).

I need to know one thing:

Can the monster/player with Knockback hit a target away just 1 or 2 spaces INSTEAD of all 3? It states very clearly in the actual rules that the figure may immediately move each affected target figure UP TO three spaces away from its current location. This means that the figure actually CAN choose how far away he decides to knock his targets. I would feel that it is more realistic since figures usually can control their strength to get what they want. (Eg: to hit a Hero into a pit just one step away, the Giant chose to knock the player back only 1 square, effectively making all effects work on that one single square and he foregoes the 2 'flying squares' as they are more a hindrance to him than help.) The very important key words here: UP TO THREE. It has a very different meaning from: move each affected target figure three spaces away from its current location.

This way, anyone with Knockback is infinitely more useful and they can strategize accordingly. Perhaps the web is just 2 squares away. Instead of knocking a Hero all full 3 squares backwards, the Giant chose to hold back on some strength and knock the Hero back just 2 squares, the first being 'knocked completely over them' and the second square, which is the end square, takes effect completely as the Hero lands.

I am pretty positive what I wrote above is the actual rules and completely legal. The major question though, is whether a Giant with Reach and Knockback can 'pull' a player towards him using knockback. (Eg. Giant is 2 sq away and swings at a hero. Hero is hit and Giant chose to knockback Hero one square towards him. This feels real too as we can imagine the Giant sweeping a wide arc and catching the player with his huge hammer, and hooking the player towards himself.

Dear veterans, really need your inputs on this. I really hope at least some of u would agree wif me...

Your understanding is correct. The figure is moved UP TO 3 spaces, in ANY direction (including towards the attacker).