The carrier is the problem. The crew for FO is quite good, but to get that crew to do anything costs you a third of your list. And with a single arc and no way to turn around quickly, its not getting many shots off either, so that crew better be doing AMAZING things. FO really wants a lambda/arc to carry these crew members for 50pts total and have a rear/side arc to contribute to battle as well.

1 hour ago, wurms said:

The carrier is the problem. The crew for FO is quite good, but to get that crew to do anything costs you a third of your list. And with a single arc and no way to turn around quickly, its not getting many shots off either, so that crew better be doing AMAZING things. FO really wants a lambda/arc to carry these crew members for 50pts total and have a rear/side arc to contribute to battle as well.

Said everything that needed to be said about the situation.

Interesting list. Can Thanisson pilot activate once when Phasma crew hands out stress at the end of the Engagement Phase? I assume ‘Yes’.

1 hour ago, Slade said:

Interesting list. Can Thanisson pilot activate once when Phasma crew hands out stress at the end of the Engagement Phase? I assume ‘Yes’.

Correct

Does the Phasma/Thanisdon combo actually trigger much? I would've thought it would be really hard to get enemies range 1 in arc with the Upsilon's dial, especially since the 5 red dice attack already motivates the opponent to not be there anyway. Unless it's one of those tricks where there's value in just the threat of it pressuring the opponent to fly differently?

I was able to get it to trigger at least once per match. One game I managed it 3 times. You can actually use your base and wide arc plus the TIEs to force bad positions. Plus if they are blocked you can potentially tractor them off at the end of the round and mess with their ability to plan. Often that’s how I got it off. I’d have Thanisson block the tractor after or cause issues with doing linked actions or K-Turns ect in front of Thanisson.

It's a combination of the carrier and the crew. When your chassis has built in limitations of the upsilon you need to get your points out of it. So adding crew can work against that goal. Phasma is the most viable option.

Once we get more ships hux could become effective. If we get a crew with a passive buff stridan will see play.

We just lack obvious synergy. Thannison and phasma would be extremely competitive if phasma's ability worked at the start of the engagement phase.

That being said I like your list and can see where it creates problems, I'm just surprised they didn't go all in on thanninson or just dodge him.

Waiting for the Xi shuttle to roll up like:

1 hour ago, Ronu said:

I was able to get it to trigger at least once per match. One game I managed it 3 times. You can actually use your base and wide arc plus the TIEs to force bad positions. Plus if they are blocked you can potentially tractor them off at the end of the round and mess with their ability to plan. Often that’s how I got it off. I’d have Thanisson block the tractor after or cause issues with doing linked actions or K-Turns ect in front of Thanisson.

Thanks, that sounds encouraging. I'm tempted to give it a try, since I have just enough /fo models to field the list.

48 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

Waiting for the Xi shuttle to roll up like:

So true but I think it will be awhile before we get that one. I think the upsilon excluding tavson would disappear the second that the xi shuttle shows up.

1 hour ago, reqent said:

I think the upsilon excluding tavson would disappear the second that the xi shuttle shows up.

Not if it had a reasonable price. Or if ion cannon had a reasonable price; it could almost be good, especially with linked battery. Or if Kylo/Snoke had a reasonable price, they're pretty crazy now. Or if FO had some other reasonable crew; they really don't but more would likely come in the Xi.

Cardinal and Stridan could also be quite powerful if dropped about 5 points. Tavson needs a nerf as-is.

It's not that the Upsilon is bad, it just doesn't suit all situations and there are many that would be better served by a cheaper ship.

3 hours ago, reqent said:

That being said I like your list and can see where it creates problems, I'm just surprised they didn't go all in on thanninson or just dodge him.

Well 2 things about this.

1: Thanisson is played ultra aggressive and usually trying to get in the face of her opponents. They can’t focus on her if she is throwing the blocks.

2. That 5 ship swarm scares people. Seemingly more than a 4 dice shot. Especially if it’s paired with a tractor from Thanisson. So opponent’s wanted to try to eliminate that threat and get points where they could.

18 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

It's not that the Upsilon is bad, it just doesn't suit all situations and there are many that would be better served by a cheaper ship.

Great example: probably Hux. Hux on a ship that cost something like a Sheathipede would probably be solid. A Hux Xi with 4 TIE/sf with Passive Sensors/Missiles (even if weaker missiles like Ion on a few of them) might actually be OK. Having an extra ship for wider arc coverage probably is superior to having a beefier shuttle.

Likewise, Kylo crew was pretty solid in 1e. In 2e, he did go up in price (and pilot crits were nerfed), but could be a nasty control tool. But on an Upsilon which can't afford to give up both an action and a force? Yeah, not going to work out.

17 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

and pilot crits were nerfed

Except Panicked Pilot, arguably the best crit in the game.

But yeah, rarely worth the Force cost

Just now, ClassicalMoser said:

Except Panicked Pilot, arguably the best crit in the game.

But yeah, rarely worth the Force cost

1e the picks were almost always either Blinded or Pilot Skill 0. 2 Stress is nice, but not nearly as good, and the overall power level of the crits got worse.

That said, I really felt 1e Kylo was a toxic card, the kind which just shouldn't have existed (or should have been cheaper and discarded himself like 1e Boba Fett crew), even if it wasn't absurd in power.

@ClassicalMoserIf they make those cost reductions it would help upsilon but they still have a steep learning curve. I think they want to avoid the triple upsilon lists so I dont see significant point drops.

22 minutes ago, reqent said:

@ClassicalMoserIf they make those cost reductions it would help upsilon but they still have a steep learning curve. I think they want to avoid the triple upsilon lists so I dont see significant point drops.

Triple Upsilon was only an issue because of Hyperspace Tracking Data and Dormitz. I keep saying the right fix to that is a hard errata on Dormitz to only place either small and medium or maybe just small base ships outside the normal deployment area.

Hard errata would definitely work. The dev's seem to prefer points. 1st edition got really annoying towards the end. If they do another ama I will ask them about point increase verse errata.

I've been running Tavson with Kylo Crew and Advanced Optics casually to good effect. He is supported by 4 Epsilon Sq. Pilots, each with Advanced Optics. That's 199, so Tavson gets Biohexacrypt Codes for giggles, but I hardly ever use it. Kylo is mostly just a force point, but combined with Optics it makes for a scary accurate gun. It's probably over priced, but I mean, I'm having fun with it. Not sure if it's better than Kylo Silencer when the same escort, but I really like the Upsilon, so I choose to use it.

One time I did use Kylo to sneak a damage card underneath the shields of a ship with shield recovery. I think it mattered, but it's hard to tell.

I also used I'll Show You the Dark Side on Rey w/Korr Sella. Don't ever do that. There was LITERALLY no pilot crit that could do anything to her. Made Kylo sad.

18 hours ago, Ronu said:

So I pulled my First order out of mothballs today for a local holiday tournament. Another local player had bashed the F/O saying TIE’s were just filler and not able to win games. Recently I’ve been playing Sloane a lot. So Phasma while not as brutal or expensive does enough to be similar in helping control things and forcing choices to go after her Shuttle or deal with a gaggle if F/O TIEs.

TIE/fo Fighter - Epsilon Squadron Cadet - 26
Epsilon Squadron Cadet - (26)

Upsilon-class Shuttle - •Petty Officer Thanisson - 69
•Petty Officer Thanisson - Alert Flight Controller (62)
Tractor Beam (2)
•Captain Phasma (5)

TIE/fo Fighter - Epsilon Squadron Cadet - 26
Epsilon Squadron Cadet - (26)

TIE/fo Fighter - Epsilon Squadron Cadet - 26
Epsilon Squadron Cadet - (26)

TIE/fo Fighter - Epsilon Squadron Cadet - 26
Epsilon Squadron Cadet - (26)

TIE/fo Fighter - Epsilon Squadron Cadet - 26
Epsilon Squadron Cadet - (26)

Total: 199/200

View in the X-Wing Squad Builder

The list was successful and the Shuttle acted like a fullback driving in hard and forcing stress and blocks. In any given match I think I lost no more than 2 TIEs and Thanisson/Phasma never took more than their shields off. While not earth shattering or even super oppressive it was at least to some degree effective. Certainly enough to win matches.

The cost of the Upsilon Shuttle certainly makes it less desirable especially with no rear arc like the lambda. So even electing to use one is a big undertaking for F/O players.

I think the other thing at least at first glance is a lack of Unique crew units to really make the F/O effective. Phasma works but limited to R0-1 meaning keeping something in front and continue to threaten to keep stress and pressure on is tough.

I’ve looked at Hux but cost to benefit at least on the surface seems limiting far more than can be effectively leveraged round over round.

Snoke is also in a similar box. He seems better for just a 2 force upgrade than getting big continual use/benefit from his ability.

Thanisson as a crew suffers from limited range compared to her ship and also a self stress. The punishment could be severe but seems to be outweighed more so by the penalty depending on when and how you are trying to it.

Kylo Ren, just seems to be far more effective as a Silencer Pilot compared to his crew for the ability vs return.

For those having used F/O more frequently had better success? Tavison has proven his ability but even there it’s usually bare or lightly equipped, and you hear nothing of F/O crew. Is it the options they are lacking or is the carrier for them the bigger obstacle (pun intended). Non of the crew seem as if the pricing on them is bad in fact most are about what you might expect.

What’s everyone else’s thoughts?

First Turn Games?

There may be a ship or two in TROS that could fulfill the crew requirement. Here's to hoping!

48 minutes ago, Parakitor said:

Kylo is mostly just a force point, but combined with Optics it makes for a scary accurate gun. It's probably over priced, but I mean, I'm having fun with it. Not sure if it's better than Kylo Silencer when the same escort, but I really like the Upsilon, so I choose to use it.

I feel like Kylo's ability would actually be good with any Marksmanship carrier (...Recoil?!?!...) to get that crit-under-the-shields. Sure it won't do much as far as control goes, but against a Phantom or A-Wing... Maybe it's just wishful thinking.

1 hour ago, Delta8 said:

First Turn Games?

Yes

1 hour ago, reqent said:

Hard errata would definitely work. The dev's seem to prefer points. 1st edition got really annoying towards the end. If they do another ama I will ask them about point increase verse errata.

I think most things can be well-adjusted with costs (or slot changes, like Handbrake Han with R2-D2 and Inertial Dampeners). It's a lot easier, and it's a lot nicer in the sense that you'll never have someone correcting you over the table about using a card wrong due to not having the errata on it.

Dormitz/Hyperspace Tracking Data seems like an exception. Neither the ship nor the upgrade has hit the tables since (due to absurd pricing), and either alone is probably fairly wholesome, except in the specific triple Upsilon list. Doing a forward deploy of a bunch of TIE/fo or TIE/sf probably isn't an issue, nor is jacking up their Initiative for deployment. Maybe a fair-price HTD would see some play with regular Upsilon so you don't wind up deployed in the wrong corner.

Honestly, I can only think of maybe one other hard errata I'd do (maybe Nantex, from "after you execute a maneuver" to "after you fully execute" in their ship ability, so they can't do their tractor stuff when blocked or bumping, but I'm not sure, and Nantex haven't really taken over).

//

I also think a limited ban list (whereby certain upgrades get banned on certain ships or in combination with other upgrades) could also be wise. I'd have love to have seen R2-D2 and Inertial Dampeners banned together, since I don't really love that Han Solo lost his illicit slot. That felt thematically important. Relatedly, maybe C-3PO on Leebo, since that was the combo the eliminated Leebo's Crew slot for. Potential problems were solved, C-3PO and Leebo both got significant cost reductions since they didn't have to be balanced around each other. However, it'd be nice if Leebo could get his crew back, with the understanding that C-3PO is banned there.

//

Overall, points and slots can fix at least 95% of problems in this game. A very small number, I think it'd be better to address in a different way.