I would like to open up a discussion on the Starhawk regarding a few thoughts I've had and any other thoughts others have.

So here are a few questions to start with.

Do you think a Starhawk is worth taking without a Magnite Crystal Tractor Beam? A MC-75 is a much cheaper brawler, and a MC80 star/battle cruiser has a similar front armament for a nice price.

Are the titles worth using? adding a token and an ability is a lot of power, the Amity title seems like a steal if you aren't going for any particular trick and combining it with TRC might make a funny ship that has a scary salvo attack.

Starhawk MKI vs Starhawk MKII

2 great titles are MKI locked

MKI is much cheaper for a minor difference in firepower, a good value considering the base price.

MKII has a red dice for flak and the swap of a black Dice for a blue helps with the Starhawk's slow speed.

Another thought is are there any crazy synergies between officers? this is the only rebel ship other than the Pelta w/title that has access to 2 officer slots although I have a feeling that Strategic Adviser is automatically bolted to this ship to make up for the loss in activation.

Most of my theory crafting was because of RyanKingston's builder which now has both new ships and the new cards--- https://armada.ryankingston.com/ ---

I can imagine it beeing used without the Crystals, as they might be tricky to use if an opposing ship is going to be dropped to 0. A lot of points investment goes into that.

I am not that sold on one red Flack die for the rebels. The Kallus counterpart (Gen. Draven) is not that good unless a Dengar Ball is coming in hot, so one red at long wont make or break anything.

Most titles are VSD expensive but they are worth it. That sweet speed 0 use one defense token **** yes. and also Salvo.

The second officer slot is for Walex if Agata is the Admiral, otherwise anyone can go there. Raymus for a fake SSD feeling. Skilled first Officer can be nice or big brother Support officer for a nice reset of the dials. Otherwise it is tied to what exactly the Starhawks is supposed to do I guess. Lando is a good Officer for a ship without an ECM to lean on when it is pinning for the fjords.

Some days I really wish that Strategic Advicer wasn't made.

3 minutes ago, DblVsdGuy said:

I can imagine it beeing used without the Crystals, as they might be tricky to use if an opposing ship is going to be dropped to 0. A lot of points investment goes into that.

I am not that sold on one red Flack die for the rebels. The Kallus counterpart (Gen. Draven) is not that good unless a Dengar Ball is coming in hot, so one red at long wont make or break anything.

Most titles are VSD expensive but they are worth it. That sweet speed 0 use one defense token **** yes. and also Salvo.

The second officer slot is for Walex if Agata is the Admiral, otherwise anyone can go there. Raymus for a fake SSD feeling. Skilled first Officer can be nice or big brother Support officer for a nice reset of the dials. Otherwise it is tied to what exactly the Starhawks is supposed to do I guess. Lando is a good Officer for a ship without an ECM to lean on when it is pinning for the fjords.

Some days I really wish that Strategic Advicer wasn't made.

With Unity and LTT the red Flak isn't that bad of an option imo. Unity is gonna be the default title on the thing I bet. It just is too good not to use.

And I agree on the Strategic Adviser note. It really hurts Medium ships.

2 minutes ago, TallGiraffe said:

With Unity and LTT the red Flak isn't that bad of an option imo. Unity is gonna be the default title on the thing I bet. It just is too good not to use.

And I agree on the Strategic Adviser note. It really hurts Medium ships.

exactly. It is almost as if FFG dont want to make any more medium based ships. It is a bit sad that the rebels only have the Assault Frigate as a medium.

It feels like an over-powered AFMkII; no dedicated role in a fleet, just a thing that does a bit of everything. But I haven't played with it that much yet.

I'm hoping there is a second Superweapon upgrade in the expansion (to match the two Superweapon cards the Onager gets). Like the Experimental Retrofit slot on the Interdictors, I feel that it may be underwhelming for the points without a superweapon included.

When list-building none of the titles have leapt out as being all that useful. Concord is expensive, and mostly useful if you're planning speed-0 shenanigans without being able to last-first. Unity seems like it might be useful if you have a decent squadron ball, but without that you're spending a lot of points for the redirect, and Amity seems like it might not do much often.

But then I've been trying it out in Raddus lists, with minimal squadrons, no need for the evade, and not much being overlapped to worry about.

As @shmitty and @BiggsIRL point out on their podcast - it’s EXTRA tokens... These are not Needa change, they’re bonus... And 6 points for an evade is CHEAP alone.

I'm sure there is a multi-Pelta + Starhawk Garm build out there waiting to be discovered.

But until then, I think the only non-meme build with Mag Beam using a Costco Starhawk to sit on an outpost objective and slow down a ship to speed 1 every turn and speed 0 in an opportune time.

Quote

Starhawk Battleship Mark I (140)
• Leading Shots (4)
• Quad Battery Turrets (5)
• Magnite Crystal Tractor Beam Array (10)
= 159 Points

At that point it is just a super phylon (its not much cheaper than 2 phylons) so I'm not sure how worth that is. It seems overpriced for Raddus unless you really want to to Boarding Troops 4 tokens. Everything it can do, an MC75 or MC80L can do at a better price point.

Edit:

I think a lot of the utility of the Starhawk is how good Salvo is because you can slap up to 3 Salvo tokens on the Starhawk with Agate and Concord or even 4 with the semi-spoiled turbo laser. At that point you are throwing as many dice at a MSU as the MSU is throwing at you each activation. You can take LTT for rerolls and squad hate. You can both counter and salvo against squads you want super dead.

Trying to dislodge it from an objective is going to be a massive pain.

I There is a lot to unpack for the Starhawk.

The Mk2 Upgrades 5 dice over the Mk1. So while you probably get 10 points worth of upgrade, but it doesn’t feel like it to me.

The ship itself is solid. Salvo ups the damage nicely without just making armaments bigger. It also ups the damage over a large number of attacks and that stresses your target’s defense tokens harder. Arcs are easy to double arc a target as well. I know I’m in the minority, but I don’t find speed 2 to be a concern.

Titles:

-Amity is weird and I don’t feel confident making statements about it. Reducing inc9ming damage seems good and Mothma makes it better. The runn8fn theory is to have a Hawk as the anchor to a mothma fleet. I’m not sure I buy it. The additional ability to increase ram damage when rammed seems like a nice to have and not a must use

-Unity is an overall good title and gets better if you are running squads. Seems to me that this would be the default title. LTTs have a nice overlap with this to get some reliable red dice flak. That flak shouldn’t be your primary use, but it is a nice to have.

-Concord is probably the tough title to make work well. Yeah, there has been the joke/observation that it’s a 22 point title. That’s accurate but not the whole story. It’s accurate that you’ll never take this title without Magnites. The rest of the story is that salvo is probably a 4-6 point token. The second salvo has a lot of uses and help increase damage output further. Special note for Concord, but it’s a Hawk title you can run without agate. Yes, you have no ECM and only one redundant token. With concord and Magnites, if you bring their priority ship to a halt, you sit even or better than they are.

Dont forget that it is a cheaper points fortress than the SSD and takes more punishment until your opponent gets points from it. Its also smaller than the SSD, which, as far as point fortressing is concerned, is an advantage.

Its also cheaper allowing you a full squad complement to go with it.

Also Bail will work well with Speed-0 Magnite hijinks. Timing will be everything, but it could be the Rebels version of Sloan / Pyrce or BT Avenger

Not really. Bail still requires you to put activate you opponent.

4 minutes ago, Church14 said:

Not really. Bail still requires you to put activate you opponent.

With SAdBail and two Goz you’re at 4 for ~250ish.

Plus rebels do have cheaper activations overall.

the times it won’t work are the times your opponent doesn’t have a lynchpin you target anyway.

7 Activations and doesn't mind being second. However it would take a lot of skill to get to work.

Faction: Rebel
Commander: Kyrsta Agate

Assault: Advanced Gunnery
Defense: Asteroid Tactics
Navigation: Solar Corona

Starhawk Battleship Mark I (140)
• Kyrsta Agate (20)
• Bail Organa (7)
• Strategic Adviser (4)
• Jyn Erso (4)
• Leading Shots (4)
• Quad Battery Turrets (5)
• Magnite Crystal Tractor Beam Array (10)
• Concord (12)
= 206 Points

Hammerhead Torpedo Corvette (36)
• External Racks (3)
= 39 Points

Hammerhead Torpedo Corvette (36)
• External Racks (3)
= 39 Points

GR-75 Medium Transports (18)
• Slicer Tools (7)
• Quantum Storm (1)
= 26 Points

GR-75 Medium Transports (18)
• Comms Net (2)
= 20 Points

Nebulon-B Support Refit (51)
• Quad Battery Turrets (5)
• Salvation (7)
= 63 Points

Squadrons:
= 0 Points

Total Points: 393

Starhawks are in someways better than SSDs for points fortresses as they don't give half points.

The problem with the Magbeam build is you have to get the Starhawk close enough. You can't talk about Magbeam in isolation. Magbeam is the combo enabler but not the finisher unless you can get the Starhawk close enough via Raddus (no one is going to want to fly into it). So you need to find the appropriate finisher. The biggest Rebel burst you can splash in cheaply is probably Yavaris and some BWings aces.

Something like this:

Quote

Starhawk Battleship Mark I (140)
• Kyrsta Agate (20)
• Adar Tallon (10)
• Magnite Crystal Tractor Beam Array (10)
= 180 Points

Nebulon-B Support Refit (51)
• Flight Commander (3)
• Fighter Coordination Team (3)
• Yavaris (5)
= 62 Points

GR-75 Medium Transports (18)
• Hondo Ohnaka (2)
• Bomber Command Center (8)
= 28 Points

Squadrons:
• Keyan Farlander (20)
• Norra Wexley (17)
• Ten Numb (19)
= 56 Points

Total Points: 326

So for this example, you're looking at 190 to set up the combo and 136 to finish off the opponent. So with the remainding 74 points, you need to get 1st player and enough padding to go last (or last + 1 or raid token if you want to first last with the finisher).

2 hours ago, TallGiraffe said:

7 Activations and doesn't mind being second. However it would take a lot of skill to get to work.

Faction: Rebel
Commander: Kyrsta Agate

Assault: Advanced Gunnery
Defense: Asteroid Tactics
Navigation: Solar Corona

Starhawk Battleship Mark I (140)
• Kyrsta Agate (20)
• Bail Organa (7)
• Strategic Adviser (4)
• Jyn Erso (4) - Better than Cham, if the opponent activates with a Nav Dial it's borked, and it's a whole nother' activation before a Comms net token can get used if it gets delivered. Now how do we zap a banked Nav token? And if we keep them at Speed 0, they will certainly shoot at me and I get to use Salvo at Close Range.
• Leading Shots (4)
• Quad Battery Turrets (5) - I would replace with XX9s for the "Bail Shot First" activation - no defense tokens are going to get used anyway, and what I'm trying to kill will likely be at my speed. Also, I can't add die to any Salvo shots I may take.
• Magnite Crystal Tractor Beam Array (10)
• Concord (12) - With 7 activation's + Bail I might not need the utility Concord gives me, perhaps Unity instead for that extra Redirect, and 2pts saved.
= 206 Points

Hammerhead Torpedo Corvette (36)
• External Racks (3)
= 39 Points

Hammerhead Torpedo Corvette (36)
• External Racks (3)
= 39 Points

GR-75 Medium Transports (18)
• Slicer Tools (7)
• Quantum Storm (1)
= 26 Points

GR-75 Medium Transports (18)
• Comms Net (2)
= 20 Points

Nebulon-B Support Refit (51)
• Quad Battery Turrets (5)
• Salvation (7)
= 63 Points

Squadrons:
= 0 Points

Total Points: 393

Love this list.

5 hours ago, eliteone said:

Love this list.

Why use Salvation and the Exrack Hammerheads? It looks like the ave damage will be about 4 (or 5 with confire) damage per hammerhead, since there arent any rerolls for them. Salvation is in the same (no reroll) boat, so probably 3 or 4 (or again 5 with confire) damage there?

I mean, if we are looking at no defense tokens being spent, 3 CR90B with SW7s pushes out 5 (or 6 with confire) damage each and at 44 points is cheaper than the combo HHs/Salvation. And for 389 points you can add in Capt Rex to really mess up their raid removal.

So here is my 2c on TallGiraffe's list subbing out the potential swing of 6 black dice on the HHs for guaranteed damage by CR90Bs.

Starhawk Battleship Mark I (140)
• Kyrsta Agate (20)
• Bail Organa (7)
• Strategic Adviser (4)
• Jyn Erso (4)
• Leading Shots (4)
• XX-9 Turbolasers (5)
• Magnite Crystal Tractor Beam Array (10)
• Unity (10)
= 204 Points

GR-75 Medium Transports (18)
• Slicer Tools (7)
• Quantum Storm (1)
= 26 Points

GR-75 Medium Transports (18)
• Comms Net (2)
= 20 Points

CR90 Corvette B (39)
• Captain Rex (5)
• SW-7 Ion Batteries (5)
• Jaina's Light (2)
= 51 Points

CR90 Corvette B (39)
• SW-7 Ion Batteries (5)
= 44 Points

CR90 Corvette B (39)
• SW-7 Ion Batteries (5)
= 44 Points

Squadrons:
= 0 Points

Total Points: 389

I like the CR90 list more since you can't just give this it first player, take a few objective tokens and fly away.

As I've been mulling it over some more I realize there is good value in the combine use of a Torp/ExRack Hammerhead, and SW90s, so I'm updating my version:

Starhawk Battleship Mark I (140)
• Kyrsta Agate (20)
• Bail Organa (7)
• Strategic Adviser (4)
• Jyn Erso (4)
• Leading Shots (4)
• XX-9 Turbolasers (5)
• Magnite Crystal Tractor Beam Array (10)
• Concord (12)
= 206 Points

GR-75 Medium Transports (18)
• Leia Organa (3)
• Comms Net (2)
= 23 Points

GR-75 Medium Transports (18)
• Slicer Tools (7)
• Quantum Storm (1)
= 26 Points

CR90 Corvette B (39)
• Captain Rex (5)
• SW-7 Ion Batteries (5)
• Jaina's Light (2)
= 51 Points

CR90 Corvette B (39)
• SW-7 Ion Batteries (5)
= 44 Points

Hammerhead Torpedo Corvette (36)
• Ordnance Experts (4)
• External Racks (3)
= 43 Points

Squadrons:
= 0 Points

Total Points: 393

I went back to Concord, since the speed 0 defense opens up a bit more command/gameplay flexibility, added Leia to the CommNet GR75 for dial control, and swapped on SW90 for the Torp/Ex HH. I considered using Garel's Honor, but didnt want to go over 395 on the points. I think that this list (with ave damage rolls) could kill an SSD in 1 round if it's at speed 0. (Might need 1 ram or a salvo shot off the Starhawk.

@Cap116 Salvation is there for range and durability. Quads on the hawk means I can potentially reroll at long and follow up with salvation. Salvation reds are on par with black dice at long range. Comms net can feed it confire tokens for a reroll and I can add in a blue from confire and quads for reliability. I can keep Salvation at 1 and constantly get the die.

With a Magnite build do you think it would be more effective to try to first/last with the Starhawk by spamming cheap ships?

Or would it be better to run another big ship or 2 mid size ships like Nebs/MC-30's

On another note, fitting squadrons into a Starhawk list seems like a commitment to squadrons considering available points.

I was playing with the idea of a Starhawk, 2 Nebs, a flotilla and 3 squadrons with the thought process of having both Nebs focus fire on the target once the Starhawk freezes them, but a Starhawk surrounded by corvettes/flotilla's might be better.....the lack of squadrons do cause worry about enemy squadrons.

Looks like we can forget about Raddusing the Starhawk.

Admiral Raddus (Upgrade Card Errata)

This upgrade card's effect should read:

"Before deploying fleets, you may set aside 1 other friendly ship with a command value of 3 or less. At the start of any round, you may deploy that ship at distance 1-2 of you. That ship cannot be deployed overlapping squadrons and cannot be the first ship to activate that round."

7 minutes ago, Bertie Wooster said:

Looks like we can forget about Raddusing the Starhawk.

Admiral Raddus (Upgrade Card Errata)

This upgrade card's effect should read:

"Before deploying fleets, you may set aside 1 other friendly ship with a command value of 3 or less. At the start of any round, you may deploy that ship at distance 1-2 of you. That ship cannot be deployed overlapping squadrons and cannot be the first ship to activate that round."

This has not been officially announced anywhere, where does this information come from pray tell...

9 minutes ago, RapidReload said:

This has not been officially announced anywhere, where does this information come from pray tell...

From the official rule thread

Ah yes, also answers the evade/ignition question. This would indiciate that there will not be another faq released with the sh/onager.

On 12/8/2019 at 10:31 PM, antisocialmunky said:

I'm sure there is a multi-Pelta + Starhawk Garm build out there waiting to be discovered.

I can literally feel Shmitty getting excited from across the country