ACE + INFERNO


One of my absolute favorites in 2.0 so far after a couple months playing Kylo + 4 FOs:

Variants:

• Drop Del for Wampa
• Drop Del for Seyn
• Vader ( Burners ) + Howl/Iden/Acd/Acd fits at 199 ( Just FCS opens up solid options )
• Mauler Mithrel, Scourge, and Valen Hodor are all worth a look/experimenting with as well
• Mix in Swarm Tactics instead of Crackshot
• Soontir can end up with Crack/TC, just crackshot, just TC, or just predator depending on the rest of your kit
• Passive Sensor Whisper + Howl/Iden/Hask/Wampa fits as well
• Duchess as the "ace" gets you a 5th Tie Fighter for the Inferno Squad

How It Engages:

• Option 1:
  • Howl Swarm looks for a lane either by being patient or racing to a spot early.
  • Ace operates as a flanking element.
• Option 2:
  • Full joust with Ace "trailing"
  • Typically offset slightly and just behind the swarm screen
  • Range control the ace to minimize shots
  • Keep options to bail out after first engage.
• Notes On 1st and 2nd Engage
  • Engaging on an "angle" instead of directly is sometimes nice, allows you to bank or hard turn into the 2nd engage
  • If 1st engage is a direct joust the range matters to maximize shots on target for 2nd engage and minimize bumps
  • If possible having an range one 1st engage can be helpful to more quickly setup K-Turns + chase
  • Rare to be range one for first engage but it is commonly achievable for the 2nd engage
  • Often Banking in + rolling out the turn before the first engage is helpful for keeping your arc options really wide
• Hard 1 Turn
  • This is still in my opinion the best dial move in the game (besides white kturns)
  • Keeps Aces honest when your entire box swarm can semi-pivot
  • Really effective for blocking
  • Allows you to slowly turn into Range 3 Engages followed by 2-3 shots from your chosen lane
  • Typically sets up Crackshot bullseyes
• Obstacle Placement and Deployment:
  • Set up lanes for the mini-swarm
  • Keeping the rocks close to your side of the board or spread out
  • Try to build at least 2+ logical lane options
  • Set the Inferno Swarm up in a pinwheel in a corner with the best access to lanes
  • Deploy the Ace in that same corner or a little further away as flank bait
• Gas Clouds
  • Are massively useful for this squad
  • Protects the Ace in situations you need it ( provided you actually set your dial to take advantage of them )
  • Allows substantially more lanes and keep open kturns in the mid game
• Mid/Late Game
  • Sometimes (rarely) it becomes necessary to split up the Inferno Ties
  • Typically at that point you only have 2-3 remaining.
  • 2 Named Tie Fighters are worth 70-80 full and are more than alot of ships in the game
  • Be aware of that as you approach late game.
  • They have a 5 straight, you brought gas clouds. Disengaging is possible.

Things It Do

• Howl Mini Swarm effects ace opponents decisions
  • Forces indirect 2-3 sided engages generally
  • If they dont do that they probably have an Alpha Strike of some kind or Regen
  • That is something you can capitalize on by moving quickly on one side of w/e pincer or anvil they are setting up
  • Having an Ace of your own allows options to threaten Flankers
  • The list does struggle a bit against opponents who understand how dangerous jousting the 4 Ties actually can be
  • If they dont "opt in" to that joust the entire game becomes about how you apply pressure to their flankers with your Ace
• Ace player will try to make you choose an ace(s) to commit the Swarm to targeting
  • Leads to 50/50 choices for both players ( Thats what good games feel like )
  • They debate which Ace to "bail out"
  • You debate which Ace(s) to "point at"
  • Often its best for the Ace player to attack with all of their components to avoid the risk of a partial trade.
  • Its a moment that requires you to read your opponent
• Formation Gameplay
  • Box Formations are actually alot less boring then people realize ( particularly if keep an Ace in the Squad )
  • The early game is super interesting with the speed and direction of the Ties being critical
  • 4 Ships are alot less difficult to manage than 6+ in formation ( fewer bumps to set overall )
  • Being "forced" to run the Ties in a box actually can make you more prone to engage with all your guns on a target
  • My favorite Ace + Squad lists still allow loose or no formation squads but playing this list makes me appreciate the "box 4" alot more
• Know Your Crit Cards
  • Bring Crit Tokens!
  • Tie Fighters take a ton of crits with no shields
  • Leads to alot of "wait I have to read this damage card" moments
• Howl and the Ace can Initiative Kill a decent # of things on their own particularly if they already slightly damaged
  • After first engage you typically have an option for the Ace to "converge" into R1 on a target
  • If the Ace is Soontir you can leverage Howl's rerolls + predator/crack + a possibly R1 Howl shot
• Blocking is Critical for Both Players
  • Against Aces after the first engage you will at some point need to block repositions or land physical blocks to win the game
  • Against full efficiency lists you will need to be smart about Initiative Choices.
  • Moving first can be the correct call ( though less relevant if running the 65444 variant ). More relevant if you take Wampa.
  • If your Mini Swarm is going to be blocked
    • Consider moving the backline out of order with the front line
    • If you set the pinwheel correctly you can have 2 Ties jump forward get their focus and then have the front line bump
    • This is a huge deal particularly for Howl and Iden who are always the first of your opponents targets
  • Soontir and Vader are both relevant blockers against other i6s
    • Using them to set up the Ties to dunk on people can be clutch
• Crackshot
  • Critical for dealing with Token Stacked and Regen ships
  • Single Charge + Bullseye Only + Non-Force User Only = Serious In Game Constraints
  • It puts that little extra bit of damage in to keep up as your own ships inevitably get init killed
  • Provides another passive way to mechanically keep up with all the ships that have mods while bumped, stressed, or having moved through an obstacle
  • Howl will sometimes reroll the Tie fighters into just 1 damage result, crackshot keeps that result relevant
  • The Bullseyes force repositions and different approaches from opponents, thats a good thing

Inferno Ties

• Howlrunner ( 40 )
  • Known quantity
  • i5 + rerolls for entire squad
  • Rerolls work on non-tie fighters
  • Swarm tactics fuel
• Iden Versio ( 40 )
  • Is the main reason besides Howl the list is playable.
  • Pretty much the only reason I am even talking about this Squad.
  • Without it most aces lists would simply joust the Mini Swarm
  • Knowing when to use it is key
    • I typically save it for bad crits or killshots
    • Its ok to use the Iden charge on one of the ties besides Howl
  • It triggers after crackshot which is helpful
• Gideon Hask ( 30 )
  • My 2nd favorite of the squad and great value for 30 pts at i4. Hask is Empires Blount.
  • I have been running Hask since the very first pt cycle ( Originally Soontir + Redline + Whisper + Hask )
  • Range 1 four dice Howl/Focus/Crack shots happen often and are immensely rewarding
  • Excellent in all stages of the game and a threat on his own late game
  • Range 3 shots with Hask are a big deal
  • Have him shoot last to improve chances of damage card
• Del Meeko ( 30 )
  • Quoted and Highlighted for Emphasis:
    • " While a friendly ship at range 0-2 defends against a damaged attacker, the defender may reroll 1 defense die"
  • Has a tangible impact on your offensive dice mod decisions
  • Being able to spend a focus on offense knowing you have a Del Reroll is great
  • Del works on himself as well which becomes relevant end game for sure
• Seyn ( 30 )
  • Typically with Marksmanship, I tend not to use this one
  • However, it can be very helpful for setting up Gideon and Del's abilities a round or two early
  • Highly bullseye or luck dependent but still a big deal
• Wampa ( 30 )
  • Actual beast mode blocker
  • My Favorite Tie Fighter in the game and my 2nd favorite Star Wars character
  • i1 is great as a blocker and makes many games against other efficiency lists more manageable
  • Sometimes makes your opponent mess up target priority and not shoot Howl/Iden first
  • That round every 10 games where Hask and Wampa both roll howl/focus modified 4 dice shots into a target is solid

Matchups

• Overall = "OK but not great"
• Matchups against the Two Currently Meta Relevant Archetypes:
  • Trip Jedi and Trip Empire
    • Both of these are problematic in that they can opt out of direct jousts
    • Sometimes can opt in with an alpha strike of their own and win the 2 v 4 fairly easily
    • Notes above on "threatening" whatever Pincer move they try to set up are key
    • Block Repositions instead of Ships against Force Users ( shots on target are precious )
    • Unlikely your Ace will be moving last in the end game
    • Makes target priority of other 6s critical
    • Leads to game states where Ace + 2 remaining Ties have to do a ton of lifting
    • Swarm Tactics can be a difference maker here in avoiding stacked init kills without shots
    • Crackshot is about equal value though in my opinion for breaking fort token stack
  • Ensnare+ or Just Sear Vultures
    • Problematic to have your Inferno swarm deconstructed by a side turret flanker
    • 5 Dice Bullseye Sun Fac with tractor beam has a way of lighting things up after the Iden charge is spent
    • Vultures can cause serious blocking problems for the i4s
    • Again Wampa becomes key though Networked mitigates it unless you stack multiple blocks in one turn
• Matchups against Sideshow Lists/Ship:
  • Leia Lists
    • White K-Turns are good, but as long as howl is alive you kinda brought your own Leia
  • Tavson and Luke
    • These two ships in particular tend to shrug off 2 dice Attacks depending on the engage
    • Hask/Wampa's 3 dice and the crackshots become more and more relevant here
    • You can absolutely flank Tavson after the first engage which helps
    • Kill everything around Luke then cleanup with your Ace
  • Wedge + Braylen + Jake + 2
    • Rare cross faction "mirror"
    • Rebel lists ability to engage out of formation is big and Braylen is a bit of a tank at r3
    • Wedge less mobile so if you get him early the game sorta flows from there
    • Their access to an i1 blocker and 3 i4s impacts the game a good deal ( init choice is weird here! )
    • Highly Entertaining matchup, seek it out.
  • Full Howl Swarm
    • Consider Moving first to deny focus mods
    • You have an i6 Ace moving last anyway
  • Resistance A-Wings
    • Problematic matchup since the entire list will just chip away at you
    • First Engage is everything
  • Bombs
    • Can be hard counters to the list, not much more to say about that
• Closing Thoughts
  • Vast Majority of matchups are genuinely entertaining
  • Plays like Core Box X-wing on steroids which is neat.
  • I will post some more detailed Vassal Gifs and Screenshots of this list in action here later

Cool Pictures

Questions:

• Anyone have general thoughts/tips on how to play a list like this well? Particularly against Aces.
• Whats your preferred variant?

Fantastic piece of work. At risk of diverting from your topic, you mention Kylo and 4 FOs. Is the Inferno version better? Any significant changes to the tactical observations you offer here??

3 hours ago, Boom Owl said:

Questions:

• Anyone have general thoughts/tips on how to play a list like this well? Particularly against Aces.
• Whats your preferred variant?

2 hours ago, Stagsquad13 said:

Fantastic piece of work. At risk of diverting from your topic, you mention Kylo and 4 FOs. Is the Inferno version better? Any significant changes to the tactical observations you offer here??

I haven't played Soontir + swarm (other than Soontir + 6 Academies about a year ago). I played a lot of Kylo+4, for a while, though.

Kylo is so great because he's also a jouster as well as an ace, and he just doesn't care so often. The FOs are super tough, as well. Generally, Soontir+4 seems to hit harder, but those TIEs will go down a lot faster once Iden's charge is burned. However, Soontir at i6 gets to be an ace against the raft of good i5s out there, where Kylo with i5 and almost always a bad bid doesn't.

To sort of answer Boom's question, against opposing aces, your best bet was often to group Kylo with the FOs and joust in a block. I think that doesn't work with Soontir, because he's way less tough. So Soontir just about has to flank, or trail the swarm pretty dramatically. I think you try your best for the swarm to hunt the other i6 ace(s) to give Soontir a chance to go after i5s. The problem I'm seeing is that once Iden gets used, the miniswarm actually gives up MOV quickly with those 40 point TIE Fighters.

I guess all that means that you really need to leverage the offense of the miniswarm against the aces. That probably means you accept maybe one shot against Soontir to get 5 shots on an opposing ace. Clouds help here, I think.

This is all just random musing, and some of these ideas are mutually exclusive with others.

Very well written overview! I've been playing a lot of the Imperial 5x5 lately so this article feels really relevant to where my squad is now. I feel like they function pretty similarly with a block and a flanking ace. Where the Inferno squad relies on durability the 5x5 trades that for Initiative sniping and a brutal second engage with Mauler and Scourge at R1. I can't make my mind up on which is a "better" overall squad for a tournament though. What I REALLY love about the 5x5 is that you can fly it in a single block and joust or peel off Duchess and/or Maarek for a flanker and operate as a 3 ship list. You make a really convincing argument here so I'd be curious to get your thoughts on the comparison.

1 hour ago, Biophysical said:

The problem I'm seeing is that once Iden gets used, the miniswarm actually gives up MOV quickly with those 40 point TIE Fighters.

This and the fact that mobile opponents can fairly easily opt out of the alpha strike are its biggest limitations.

23 minutes ago, Test Pilot said:

Very well written overview! I've been playing a lot of the Imperial 5x5 lately so this article feels really relevant to where my squad is now. I feel like they function pretty similarly with a block and a flanking ace. Where the Inferno squad relies on durability the 5x5 trades that for Initiative sniping and a brutal second engage with Mauler and Scourge at R1. I can't make my mind up on which is a "better" overall squad for a tournament though. What I REALLY love about the 5x5 is that you can fly it in a single block and joust or peel off Duchess and/or Maarek for a flanker and operate as a 3 ship list. You make a really convincing argument here so I'd be curious to get your thoughts on the comparison.

14 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

This and the fact that mobile opponents can fairly easily opt out of the alpha strike are its biggest limitations.

It makes me wonder about the Soontir/Mauler/Scourge/Hask/2 Academies. It's another shot that has to be avoided, it's tougher than 4 with Iden, and it has the two i5s that are less likely to get initiative killed.

Sort of a 5x5 and Soontir + squad hybrid.

I guess what has to be done regardless of fighter composition is that the TIE Fighters force an opt out with their jousting power, and you try to position Soontir where he can take advantage of the opt-out, as he'll likely move last against 2/3 of most triple ace lists. Basically, use the fighters to break up the opposing triple ace formation that they want to use to hunt Soontir. So their key ace goes after Soontir and they eat a face full of dice, they opt out, and Soontir chases while the miniswarm protects his back from the other aces. The details would obviously vary greatly, and it's much easier said than done.

15 minutes ago, Biophysical said:

Sort of a 5x5 and Soontir + squad hybrid.

Soontir + Duchess + Howl + Mauler + Scourge fits at 199 as well. Basically takes a good trip ace list and replaces bunch of upgrades/bid and Grand Inquisitor or Vader with 3 i5 Tie Fighters.

27 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

Soontir + Duchess + Howl + Mauler + Scourge fits at 199 as well. Basically takes a good trip ace list and replaces bunch of upgrades/bid and Grand Inquisitor or Vader with 3 i5 Tie Fighters.

That doesn't feel great to me, because half your points are in maneuver aces and you have no bid, also Howl has no protection, so you're hemorrhaging VP. Maybe it's fine and I'm over estimating those problems.

8 minutes ago, Biophysical said:

That doesn't feel great to me, because half your points are in maneuver aces and you have no bid, also Howl has no protection, so you're hemorrhaging VP. Maybe it's fine and I'm over estimating those problems.

Yea, seems better to just bring a third Ace or to drop duchess and get more/better ships for the squad.

Either way part of the reason I like Soontir Howl Swarm is its fairly clear how it wants to play.

Could you share your Kylo list with us?

11 minutes ago, BankTheTank said:

Could you share your Kylo list with us?

Got it from Bio. Kylo + Scorch + Longshot + Omega + Epsilon with 3 copies of crackshot. Not ideal for current power levels but more effective than you might expect.

53 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

Yea, seems better to just bring a third Ace or to drop duchess and get more/better ships for the squad.

Either way part of the reason I like Soontir Howl Swarm is its fairly clear how it wants to play.

Yeah, it has clearly delineated areas of expertise. Makes it easy to avoid DOING IT WRONG.

15 hours ago, Boom Owl said:

Drop Del for Seyn

I think the two pair together so well, though. In some ways I'd rather have the full inferno roster than Howlrunner + 3 of them.

15 hours ago, Boom Owl said:

Del works on himself as well which becomes relevant end game for sure

Del also, critically, works on your ace - unlike Iden whose ability is TIE fighter specific.

2 hours ago, Magnus Grendel said:

I think the two pair together so well, though. In some ways I'd rather have the full inferno roster than Howlrunner + 3 of them.

Del also, critically, works on your ace - unlike Iden whose ability is TIE fighter specific.

Been thinking about this squad type for a few hours now. Your comments are true, though the great thing about these TIEs is that they are so interchangeable for each individual.

Seyn instead of Howl: I think the re-roll for offense for Howl is more useful than Seyn's triggering of the other Inferno's abilities, though it does mean that it may require two or three TIE shots to actually get the damage through.

Seyn instead of Del: Makes the mini-swarm much more offensively focused, so better against lower-initiative enemies. Can't decide if I like Seyn better than Del.

Replacing Iden with any other TIE: I don't like Iden's 1-shot ability, even though it is extremely powerful. I totally understand the impact that removing an attack can have, but always get annoyed that after that one shot Iden is basically just a TIE with higher initiative. I've thought about removing Iden for Del (So Howl, Hask, Del, and Seyn) and giving extra upgrade potential to the ace, but I don't think it will work nearly as well. It might be fun to try out though.

https://raithos.github.io/?f=Galactic Empire&d=v8ZsZ200Z179X116W249WY223X116WY221XY181X116WWY181X116WW&sn=Unnamed Squadron&obs=

This feels interesting, Soontir, 2 Sabers, Gideon, Wampa. That's a real ace, two pocket aces, two extra almost 3 dice attacks, and a blocker.

One variant possibly worth highlighting is adding Mauler or Scourge.
Can take just one for 65544 (5x crack) or take both instead of Hask/Del for 65554 (3x Crack).
Iden to protect Howl & i5s basically.

Everything you've written is very spot on and amazing! I tried with Fel, but I like targeting computer Fel more than predator Fel. I've been tinkering with Duchess/5th/predator instead of Fel because that comes in at 53 points, leaving your swarm like above:

"Duchess" (42)

Predator (2)
Fifth Brother (9)
Ship total: 53 Half Points: 27 Threshold: 2

"Howlrunner" (40)
Crack Shot (1)
Ship total: 41 Half Points: 21 Threshold: 2

Iden Versio (40)
Crack Shot (1)
Ship total: 41 Half Points: 21 Threshold: 2

"Mauler" Mithel (32)
Crack Shot (1)
Ship total: 33 Half Points: 17 Threshold: 2

Gideon Hask (30)
Crack Shot (1)
Ship total: 31 Half Points: 16 Threshold: 2

Total: 199

View in Yet Another Squad Builder 2.0: https://raithos.github.io/?f=Galactic Empire&d=v8ZsZ200Z211X127W82WWY217X116WY218X116WY219X116WY223X116W&sn=Unnamed Squadron&obs=

I tried Scourge in there but even against medium bases its was more difficult to line up the bullseye and howl reroll. Seyn or Gideon, either would be good. I guess depends on your meta, where you want Seyn for a more ace-y type to maybe push damage through.

A couple of nights back, with this thread in mind, I gave a newbie Soontir (Predator) and Howl (Swarm), Iden, Gideon and Del Meeko against a more experienced player testing Luke, Wedge, Jake and Arvel...
With some decision making assistance, was able to out-point him.

I found it interesting how much the mini-swarm was able to take.
Might give it a whirl myself at some stage.

Cheers

Grand write up! Thank you so much!

With the new points update I figured:

Vader+FCS and all 4 Infernos still fit.
...but got smashed a couple times!

It really is fun to fly, but I didn’t get it to work. Vader is not an 'Ace'!

And I fee like the high initiative of the TIEs is rather a hindrance: prone to be blocked, can’t really arc-dodge, not enough damage output to initiative kill something (so it can’t shoot back).
And all the abilities are super-cool - but sometimes hard to proc, especially Seyn and Del. Plus once Iden‘s charge is spend... 😕

But looking forward to trying your tips! 😄

- In extended there’re more options,

if you have to choose 2 out of three, which one would you drop??

- Del defensive rerolls, situational

- Seyn crit to damage card, situational

-Wampa one more red die, blocker ; draws fire away