Watching this GSP game...
Around 17:30, the Han player uses wiggle room in his template to complete his maneuver, but to physically touch RAC.
He stated that they were thus at Range 0 and could not shoot each other.
Thoughts?
17:30 ish for reference below. Dion’s argument that they could still shoot around 20:00...
Dion emphasizes they did not overlap, but does that answer the range 0 question?
Edited by JBFancourt
page 16 of the rules reference under Range.
so yes, it's possible to move into range 0 without overlapping, thus not even loosing your action but still not being able to attack the ship you're at range 0 of.
25 minutes ago, meffo said:page 16 of the rules reference under Range.
so yes, it's possible to move into range 0 without overlapping, thus not even loosing your action but still not being able to attack the ship you're at range 0 of.
So do you think it’s legal to allow a player to essentially decide based on wiggle room?
5 hours ago, JBFancourt said:So do you think it’s legal to allow a player to essentially decide based on wiggle room?
excellent question. thank you.
yes. there is nothing stopping that in the rules. in fact, it's supported by the rules. doesn't matter that i dislike it.
don't forget that even the rules state that this occurance is very rare - and that's correct. it will pretty much never come up, but if it does it's described in the rules.
and trust me, i know there are plenty of people who will disagree with me, since i've already discussed it in my local community. it's not just disagreeing with me though, it's disagreeing with the rules as written. which is also fine, but it's a dangerous path to go down, so you sort of have to stop at that.
it's the same with darth vader crew. some people believe there are rules about declaration of intent and concequences for declaring your intent. that's not what's written in the rules, though. i mention that simply because in my experience, it's the same camp at the club that argues for it. they're veterans and like things to be done in a manner they've always been done. 2.0 is a different game than 1.0, but they view it more like an update.
19 hours ago, meffo said:... 2.0 is a different game than 1.0, but they view it more like an update.
I'm with @meffo on this. The rules clearly describe that this is a rare but possible occurrence. I've had the discussion locally as well and most of the 1e vets still refuse accept 'range 0, no overlap' even after reading that passage in the rules.
15 minutes ago, nitrobenz said:I'm with @meffo on this. The rules clearly describe that this is a rare but possible occurrence. I've had the discussion locally as well and most of the 1e vets still refuse accept 'range 0, no overlap' even after reading that passage in the rules.
Hey, Dion! Quick Tips on this???
😜
From the rules reference:
While a ship executes a maneuver or otherwise moves, it OVERLAPS an object if the ship’s final position would physically be on top of an object.
A ship FULLY executes a maneuver if it does not overlap a ship. If a ship executes a maneuver and overlaps a ship, it must PARTIALLY execute that maneuver by performing the following steps:
1. Move the ship backward along the template until it is no longer on top of any other ships. While doing so, adjust the position of the ship so that the hashmarks in the middle of both sets of guides remains centered over the line down the middle of the template.
2. Once the ship is no longer on top of any other ship, place it so that it is touching the last ship it backed over. This may result in the ship returning to its starting position.
3. The ship skips its Perform Action step.
It specifically defines overlapping as a physical board state that has nothing to do with range 0. Part of partially executing a maneuver is moving your ship backwards on the template until there's no overlap. If you don't have to move the ship back over the template to be able to place a ship on the board, you have fully executed the maneuver, even if you end a maneuver at range 0 of another ship.
Soooooo, @meffo , @nitrobenz , and @Des Darklighter :
RR Obstacles
While a ship is at range 0 of an obstacle it may suffer different effects.
• Asteroid: The ship cannot perform attacks.
All of the other effects are based on OVERLAPPING except this one. It’s only requirement is Range 0.
So if I (tho rarely ever) execute a maneuver, use template room to keep my base off of it but still physically touching... I could perform my action, would NOT roll for damage, BUT would not be able to attack.
???
52 minutes ago, JBFancourt said:Soooooo, @meffo , @nitrobenz , and @Des Darklighter :
RR Obstacles
While a ship is at range 0 of an obstacle it may suffer different effects.
• Asteroid: The ship cannot perform attacks.
All of the other effects are based on OVERLAPPING except this one. It’s only requirement is Range 0.
So if I (tho rarely ever) execute a maneuver, use template room to keep my base off of it but still physically touching... I could perform my action, would NOT roll for damage, BUT would not be able to attack.
???
From the RR:
Obstacles act as hazards that can disrupt and damage ships. A ship can suffer effects by moving through, overlapping, or while being at range 0 of obstacles.
While a ship executes a maneuver, if it moves through or overlaps an obstacle, it executes its maneuver as normal but suffers an effect based on the type of obstacle:
Asteroid: After executing the maneuver, it rolls one attack die. On a result, the ship suffers one damage; on a result, it suffers one damage. Then the ship skips its Perform Action step this round.
Debris Cloud: After the Check Difficulty step, the ship gains one stress token. After executing the maneuver, it rolls one attack die. On a result, the ship suffers one damage.
Gas Cloud: The ship skips its Perform Action step.
While a ship is not executing a maneuver, if it moves through or overlaps an obstacle, it suffers an effect based on the type of obstacle (after resolving its move, if applicable):
Asteroid: The ship rolls one attack die. On a hit result, the ship suffers one damage; on a critical result, it suffers one critical damage.
Debris Cloud: The ship gains one stress token. The ship rolls one attack die. On a critical result, the ship suffers one critical damage.
While a ship is at range 0 of an obstacle it may suffer different effects. • Asteroid: The ship cannot perform attacks.
I think your assessment is correct. It is possible to move where your ship does not overlap an asteroid but just barely touches it, you would get an action and not roll for damage, but you could not attack either (unless you boost/br away).
Range 0 of an obstacle is only when the object is physically on top of it, not when you barely touch one.
See Range section.
3 hours ago, JBFancourt said:... So if I (tho rarely ever) execute a maneuver, use template room to keep my base off of it but still physically touching... I could perform my action, would NOT roll for damage, BUT would not be able to attack.
If it wasn't for the alternate definition mentioned by @S4ul0 (on p15 of RR 1.0.6.1) i would agree with JBF's assessment, but here it is:
• Range 0 does not appear on the range ruler, but is used for describing the range of objects that are physically touching.
◊ After a ship partially executes a maneuver, it is at range 0 of the last ship it overlapped.
◊
An object is at range 0 of an obstacle or device if it is physically on top of it.
◊ A ship is at range 0 of another ship if it is physically touching another ship.
(Italics mine for emphasis) I don't know why they also included a 'range 0' clause for asteroids instead of including it with the rest of the overlapping effects when this clause exists saying that range zero of an obstacle is defined by overlapping. That diamond does not conflict with the last point in the list:
◊ If two ships are at range 0 of each other, they remain at range 0 until one of the ships moves in a way that results in their bases no longer being in physical contact.
◊ Although rare, it is possible for a ship to move in such a way that it is at
range 0 of another ship
(in physical contact with it) without having overlapped it.
(Italics again for emphasis) The final diamond point of 'range 0 no overlap' is still consistent because this point specifically references ship-to-ship range.
Ok, guys, thanks.
So, recap, Range 0 of a ship is touching. Range 0 of an asteroid is overlapping only.
Surprisingly precise differences!
once again.... showing the horrible mess inconsistent wording gives you.
10 hours ago, Bort said:once again.... showing the horrible mess inconsistent wording gives you.
I try not to let that get me down
if you fly casual this game is super fun!
But it is amazing to me that the competitive scene continues to thrive with how many glitches are in the rules.
On 12/6/2019 at 5:29 PM, JBFancourt said:Can You Choose Range 0?
Hey! this is my game. I love these rules discussions, and actually cared more about the answer than the outcome of the game itself. I have actually run into this scenario a couple times, including against Dion. It somewhat sucks that the FFG cheater templates give a bit more wiggle room than the cardboard does, or 3rd party templates, but they are legal game components. I don't expect an official ruling on this anytime soon, but I got something close to it from the Marshal at works in top 64. They allowed a range 0 where I could have wiggled to not-range 0. If my opponent had wiggled on his template a bit more, I probably would have bumped, and ended up in a different place. I think it isn't a problem, but if anybody every gets the slightest bit salty about it, I would rather let them have it than ruin their day.
On 12/8/2019 at 10:52 AM, JBFancourt said:Ok, guys, thanks.
So, recap, Range 0 of a ship is touching. Range 0 of an asteroid is overlapping only.
Surprisingly precise differences!
Does this extend to remotes (and how remotes interact with certain effects, like mine detonation or buzz droid latching on)?
10 hours ago, emeraldbeacon said:Does this extend to remotes (and how remotes interact with certain effects, like mine detonation or buzz droid latching on)?
yes. there is a difference between ships and other objects.
◊ An object is at range 0 of an obstacle or device if it is physically on top of it.
◊ A ship is at range 0 of another ship if it is physically touching another ship.
This should be pinned. It is the most misunderstood and hardest to explain of all the contentions I've encountered. I've been storing up a rant for some time, so excuse the steam.
I have twice had a mood sour extremely swiftly when I have attempted to explain the difference between touching and overlapping. I conceded the action both times, since the TO was no help at all and thought the usual thing. Did not like being stared at as if I was that guy .
It has come up a couple of times with no souring, which is always nice.
There is no such thing as a bump! That's just what we call it. There is overlap, there is touching. They are different, 'bump' does not cover both and then edit out the entirety of touching ..
I have seriously resorted to explaining, later, that the words used are literal words with actual dictionary definitions. If I am not physically on top of something , I am not overlapping it, just touching. This is how words are used, they mean specific things, fer crissakes.
But you just "Bumped" , which is always overlapping.
NO IT IS NOT! THERE IS NOT BUMPING! BUMP IS JUST SLANG G*D**MIT!
So I kinda feel a little strongly about it, I guess.
I wanted to also add the haha emoji and Thank You emoji along with my heart.
😂 🙏