55 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

I consider it more likely the app is still glitched when it comes to the M3-A's and T-70's ship ability, there were problems with it at release, than the wording being a mistake so you'd have to convince me of the opposite. Better yet, lets let FFG finally directly answer this (I asked them almost a year ago via the rules questions web link) and see what the new official app says when, if ever, it gets released instead of fighting over it.

It would need an example stating that upgrades with and are not the same upgrade type for this to have any weight. Sorry.

Okay. Let’s look at who gets two missile slots. Off the top of my head, the list is TIE Aggressor, TIE Bomber, TIE Punisher, Gunboat, and K-Wing. Of that list, four of the five are heavy ordnance carriers meant to do just that. That does leave the Aggressor as an outlier, but that’s pretty much seems to sum up the Aggressor in general.

Now, let’s look at the T-70 and the Scyk. The T-70 is a fighter with a modular hardpoint. While it can fill different roles, it is not designed to be a primary ordnance carrier as the examples above or even a Y-Wing. Look at other ships of its type. Same goes for the Scyk. It is suppose to be a light, modular interceptor. Being loaded down with the large ammo reserves for something like “Barrage Rockets” seems counter to both the in-universe and game purpose of the ship.

Look, I wouldn’t mind having BRs for my Scyks, but your reasoning seems more like rules lawyering an exploit than an intended function. I would suggest trying to resubmit your question in the new Discord Q&A thing to get an answer.

Edit: oh, and one of the Hyena bomber limited pilots can has double missile slots. So, that’s 5 out of 6 ships capable of taking barrage rockets fitting into the same role.

It seems fairly clear to me that scyks cannot equip barrage rockets (BRs). BRs are of a type "missile," and that also require a ship to have two missile upgrade slots available.

Scyks only have one missile slot, so they don't have the required two slots to equip them.

With respect to the scyk or T-70 pilot cards and how many weapon hardpoints are available, it's not the number "1" but the number of upgrade icons that appears.

The number "1" simply designates the number of upgrade cards that can be equipped.

A double missile icon does not appear, therefore neither can take the BR upgrade.

Jonus's ability triggering a BR reroll is a different story, and could probably be argued either way.

The first would be that Jonus would allow a reroll of upgrades that take up one missile slot.

The second would be that Jonus would allow a reroll of upgrades of the type missile.

After looking at the iconography again, it could very well be that Jonus's ability actually does not apply to BRs.

Besides, they already have a reroll capability built into the upgrade card itself.

This is exactly why I come to this forum on a slow Friday morning. First of all, thanks everyone for realizing just how important this is.

While I agree that the wording on the weapon hardpoint ability should allow for these double missiles, I also agree with the argument from an earlier thread (whose author eludes me), "don't make barrage rockets Poe a thing."

11 minutes ago, Ccwebb said:

This seems like an easy argument to fix. Go equip BR on Scyk in any app. Cannot be done. Period.

You can't use a corellian corvette in the app either, does that mean it can't be done? The app is a bad rubric for what should be allowable.

8 minutes ago, underling said:

Scyks only have one missile slot, so they don't have the required two slots to equip them.

Scyks don't technically have any missile (or cannon or torpedo) slots, they just have the ability to equip a missile, cannon, or torpedo upgrade. The Weapon Hardpoint ship ability doesn't add any slots to the upgrade bar, unlike something like the Firespray titles that explicitly add a slot of a given type.

Given ambiguity, do things the way we've always done things, until FFG says otherwise? Preposterous; the rules are a spellbook and by reading the right incantation they do what I want.

23 minutes ago, Jarval said:

Scyks don't technically have any missile (or cannon or torpedo) slots, they just have the ability to equip a missile, cannon, or torpedo upgrade. The Weapon Hardpoint ship ability doesn't add any slots to the upgrade bar, unlike something like the Firespray titles that explicitly add a slot of a given type.

Yep, my bad. I worded that poorly. Their hardpoint though, in effect, provides a canon, torpedo or missile "slot."

In game terms I believe it's functionally the same as having a slot on the upgrade bar.

But I view all three provided slots as a singular, which would still not allow the barrage rocket upgrade.

Official app does not allow it. That seems to answer the the M3-A question.

Per the RRG the app is official, so until the app changes/ffg clarifies it's a hard no on barrage scyks.

1 hour ago, faceyfood said:

Official app does not allow it. That seems to answer the the M3-A question.

official app also let me equip both Chancellor Palpatine AND Darth Sidious on the same ship (you know... the same card, but... reversed...)
BRB, gonna make a tourney list with that, and use the app as my reason why it's legal. I'm sure the TO will be baffled by my superior knowledge of the game rules.

4 hours ago, Ccwebb said:

This seems like an easy argument to fix. Go equip BR on Scyk in any app. Cannot be done. Period.

Now the argument can be continued about Jonas, though I don’t believe it is anywhere a correct argument. Many fine points am have been proven, using the rules and symbology on the card.

Heehee....

Not true! You can do so on the LaunchBay App. 😜😁🙄😂

Which while not official, does show the confusion.

The former discussion boiled down to Slots V Type and FFG App Wins V Bugs In App Everywhere.

But don’t let me stop you! Good luck reaching a consensus! 😁😁

7 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

The obvious answer is that Jonus refers to the secondary weapon upgrade type, while Barrage Rockets require two upgrade slots. And the game uses the same symbol for both, but the context tells us which is meant.

This.

Logic.

...now where's my pint?

6 hours ago, Ccwebb said:

This seems like an easy argument to fix. Go equip BR on Scyk in any app. Cannot be done. Period.

Now the argument can be continued about Jonas, though I don’t believe it is anywhere a correct argument. Many fine points am have been proven, using the rules and symbology on the card.

Jonus seems to work regardless of whether the card counts as one upgrade or multiple, because he doesn't say anything about the type of upgrade; he cares about the type of attack.

5 hours ago, underling said:

Yep, my bad. I worded that poorly. Their hardpoint though, in effect, provides a canon, torpedo or missile "slot."

If it did that, the wording would say "You gain one [missile], [torpedo], or [cannon] upgrade slot."

If, at some point in the future, there was a Modification or Talent that required the presence of one of those slots, it would not be legal to equip it on the Syck/T-70 with the current wording because it never possessed the slot.

1 hour ago, clanofwolves said:

This.

Logic.

...now where's my pint?

More explicitly, the rules distinguish "missile upgrade card type" upgrades, missile upgrade slots, and missile attacks.

There are cards with different slot requirements (currently "missile" and "missile/missile"), but all of them are missile upgrade card types. And all of them have missile attacks.

Just popping back in to remind people that the ship ability does not state "slot" in any part of it.

10 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

Just popping back in to remind people that the ship ability does not state "slot" in any part of it.

True, and my list was incomplete.

From what we can infer, the rules distinguish:

• "missile upgrade card type" upgrades,
  • consisting of single slot missile upgrades and
  • double slot missile upgrades ("missile/missile"),
• then missile upgrade slots,
• and finally missile attacks.

Unfortunately, all use the same symbol. And we can only infer the first point from the facts that both upgrades are called "missiles", use missile slots, perform missile attacks, but are not treated exactly the same because they are not exactly the same.

So we have to use other clues as whether a Scyk and a T70 are supposed to be able to equip only single slot missile upgrades, or both single and double slot missile upgrades. The clues are:

• The official app does only allow one (however, the official app is famous for many failings, so don't put too much stock into this)
• The type of ship can not normally fit double missile slots because they do not have a designated missile carrier role in the lore or game (however, this is circumstancial)
• The referenced upgrade on both ships is "1 [missile] upgrade" as opposed to the otherwise used [missile] "upgrade card type"
• Both ships depict only a single [missile] symbol when you'd expect it to depict two symbols for cards that require two slots and have two symbols on their cards. Otherwise it should say "upgrade card type" instead of only "upgrade"

13 hours ago, Hiemfire said:

That isn't how English works. With the pictographs swapped out for their actual words: "You can equip 1 Cannon, Torpedo, or Missile upgrade."

And with the pictographs swapped out for actual words, Barrage Rockets says “you cane equip this where you can equip two missile upgrades.”

This thread right now

Come on guys, we're (usually) better than this.

Re-asked via the Rules Submission Form. Maybe they'll answer this time.

Oh just let Scyks equip Barrage Rockets already. Heaven knows the little buggers need all the help they can get.

2 hours ago, Herowannabe said:

Oh just let Scyks equip Barrage Rockets already. Heaven knows the little buggers need all the help they can get.

And T-70s as well?

15 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

And T-70s as well?

Would it hurt much? They're already a 3 dice gun, sure you make them better at range 3, and with the bullseye spend-to-reroll, but it's still 8 points for that, fair?

4 minutes ago, Cerebrawl said:

Would it hurt much? They're already a 3 dice gun, sure you make them better at range 3, and with the bullseye spend-to-reroll, but it's still 8 points for that, fair?

It would be good, because closed wing Poe is already a thing with HLC.

2 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

It would be good, because closed wing Poe is already a thing with HLC.

HLC is a 4 dice attack for half the price of barrage rockets. I'm not saying it'd be a terrible option, but it'll probably be balanced by the points.

PS: I play scum btw, so while the scyks getting it could be interesting(though at that point they're almost as much points as a kihraxz), the T-70 getting it will not in any way help me, unless it's a trap option.

37 minutes ago, Cerebrawl said:

HLC is a 4 dice attack for half the price of barrage rockets. I'm not saying it'd be a terrible option, but it'll probably be balanced by the points.

DBM is a quasi 4dice attack without the range bonus, for just 2 points more. That 4th die is not modified, but can also not be evaded.. Double modified Poe could probably make very good use of that. I'm not saying he should joust a swarm with that, but he could probably flank more than one ship every now and then, and in that case DBM is much better than HLC. A big downside however is that DBM can only be used like that a single time.

Double modified HLC rolls 3.75 hits, but that drops to 1.9 against another focused Xwing at range 3.
DBM double modified rolls 1.6 out of the hand, plus 50% for another hit for every ship at range 0-1 of the target, including the target. That can be simulated by adding 0.5 expected damage, which puts it at 2.1 and above HLC. Another ship nearby adds another 0.5 and 2.6 is massively better.

I said closed wing HLC though, and that suggests single mod. In that case HLC gets 1.227 damage in, and DBM 1.195 plus 0.5 = 1.7. Again very similar before splash, and much better after.

And keep in mind that more points on an endgame ship is a benefit. Poe can be such an endgame ship.

(Also, bullseye is much harder to get than a normal firing arc. I'd wager that you are more likely to get a double modified DBM shot than a double modified HLC shot because of that)