A local player recently asked a questions for which I thought there was an obvious answer:

"Can the M3-A equip Barrage Rockets?"

Obviously not, I thought. The M3-A ship ability allows you to equip a [missile] upgrade, but Barrage Rockets are a [missile] [missile] upgrade. These are not the same, so things that refer to [missile] do not apply to things that are [missile] [missile]. Right?

He responded with a stumper "Captain Jonus also uses a single symbol and therefore couldn't re-roll Barrage Rockets with that logic."

Hmm, good point.

We have all been playing as though M3-A Interceptors cannot equip BR, because of the number of symbols. We have also been playing as though Captain Jonus' ability does work with Barrage Rockets, without ever being bothered by the number of symbols in the text of Jonus' ability.

Is there something in the Rules Reference that could settle the key question: do [missile] [missile] upgrades allow [missile] attacks, or are are those considered [missile] [missile] attacks?

Scyk's can't equip Barrage Rockets in the app, and we have never tried to equip them on a Scyk.

The obvious answer is that Jonus refers to the secondary weapon upgrade type , while Barrage Rockets require two upgrade slots . And the game uses the same symbol for both, but the context tells us which is meant.

But I'm not sure if there is a hard rule on that...

It's a gap.

My own logic, unsupported by actual rules...

Jonus buffs missile attacks.

Brockets are definitely missiles. So that's fine.

Scyks can equip 1 missile upgrade.

But Brockets are 2 missile upgrades in one.

So you could maybe put half a Brocket on a Scyk. But not the full 2.

You can attempt that yourself, I'm happy with Autoblaster Sunny. Less dice is better for her. Maybe. I don't math.

The whole discussion is already here, with no resolve.

First 1.5pages are worth reading, then it derails as people post seemingly without having read what was written higher up in the same thread.

Only precedent I can think of is 1st edition Boba Fett crew and Emperor Palpatine. Although I'm less than helpful because I can't remember if we ever got an official ruling on that.

36 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

The obvious answer is that Jonus refers to the secondary weapon upgrade type , while Barrage Rockets require two upgrade slots . And the game uses the same symbol for both, but the context tells us which is meant.

But I'm not sure if there is a hard rule on that...

Where is the number of slots indicated in the M3-A's and T-70 X-Wing's ship ability again?

2 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

Where is the number of slots indicated in the M3-A's and T-70 X-Wing's ship ability again?

By the number “1”. That number is not needed to specify that you have to choose which slot to take, that’s the job of “or”. “1” is there to indicate how many of the slot you are taking.

6 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

Where is the number of slots indicated in the M3-A's and T-70 X-Wing's ship ability again?

3 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

Where is the number of slots indicated in the M3-A's and T-70 X-Wing's ship ability again?

hah, good point. Clearly the "1". But the rules lawyer in you will of course point out that it refers to the missile upgrade type, not the number of slots. Slave I says "adds [Torpedo] slot", that's a different type of wording. Same with the other titles or e.g the Scurrg.

The actual answer might be that DBM count as "2 [Missile] upgrade" while you can only equip 1 [Missile] upgrade

8 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

Where is the number of slots indicated in the M3-A's and T-70 X-Wing's ship ability again?

I don't think it's the printed number 1, instead I think it's in the fact that each symbol only appears once.

2 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

By the number “1”. That number is not needed to specify that you have to choose which slot to take, that’s the job of “or”. “1” is there to indicate how many of the slot you are taking.

1 minute ago, skotothalamos said:

That isn't how English works. With the pictographs swapped out for their actual words: "You can equip 1 Cannon, Torpedo, or Missile upgrade."

2 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

hah, good point. Clearly the "1". But the rules lawyer in you will of course point out that it refers to the missile upgrade type, not the number of slots. Slave I says "adds [Torpedo] slot", that's a different type of wording. Same with the other titles or e.g the Scurrg.

The actual answer might be that DBM count as "2 [Missile] upgrade" while you can only equip 1 [Missile] upgrade

Now Reload:

Pictographs in place: "Choose one of the ship’s equipped , , or upgrade cards that has fewer active than its charge limit."

In English: "Choose one of the ship’s equipped Torpedo, Missile, or Payload upgrade cards that has fewer active charges than its charge limit."

Just now, Hiemfire said:

That isn't how English works. With the pictographs swapped out for their actual words: "You can equip 1 Cannon, Torpedo, or Missile upgrade."

Heh, this isn’t English. This is game rules English, a derivative of “Legal Speak”.

I agree that a mistake in wording has been made, but you need to convince me that was the intent. Yeah, yeah. RAW vs RAI. Still need to be convinced that was intended.

1 minute ago, Hiemfire said:

Now Reload:

Pictographs in place: "Choose one of the ship’s equipped , , or upgrade cards that has fewer active than its charge limit."

In English: "Choose one of the ship’s equipped Torpedo, Missile, or Payload upgrade cards that has fewer active charges than its charge limit."

Haha you really seem to enjoy that.

Clearly DBM is one Missile upgrade card, but counts as two Missiles upgrade slots for the sake of equipping it. As indicated by the combination of those two images.

Barrage rocket is AN upgrade of type missile, but requires two slots. Indicated by the double symbol. Jonus and Reload allow to reload A missile upgrade (which Barrage/DBM) is. But Scyk and T70 allow you to add the equivalent of ONE missile slot.

As I said, it's one of those cases where we all know what is meant, but it might not be 100% tight within the rules.

Huh.

Yeah it doesn't specify very well does it?

6 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

Heh, this isn’t English. This is game rules English, a derivative of “Legal Speak”.

I agree that a mistake in wording has been made, but you need to convince me that was the intent. Yeah, yeah. RAW vs RAI. Still need to be convinced that was intended.

I consider it more likely the app is still glitched when it comes to the M3-A's and T-70's ship ability, there were problems with it at release, than the wording being a mistake so you'd have to convince me of the opposite. Better yet, lets let FFG finally directly answer this (I asked them almost a year ago via the rules questions web link) and see what the new official app says when, if ever, it gets released instead of fighting over it.

10 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

Haha you really seem to enjoy that.

Clearly DBM is one Missile upgrade card, but counts as two Missiles upgrade slots for the sake of equipping it. As indicated by the combination of those two images.

Barrage rocket is AN upgrade of type missile, but requires two slots. Indicated by the double symbol. Jonus and Reload allow to reload A missile upgrade (which Barrage/DBM) is. But Scyk and T70 allow you to add the equivalent of ONE missile slot.

As I said, it's one of those cases where we all know what is meant, but it might not be 100% tight within the rules.

It would need an example stating that upgrades with and are not the same upgrade type for this to have any weight. Sorry.

13 minutes ago, KCDodger said:

Huh.

Yeah it doesn't specify very well does it?

Nope.

20 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

It would need an example stating that upgrades with and are not the same upgrade type for this to have any weight. Sorry.

What do you mean? I'm explicitly saying that they are the same upgrade card type . I'm saying that upgrades are a subset of the upgrade card type upgrade. Another upgrade card type upgrade subset are upgrades.

Same as the CLT is both a configuration and a modification upgrade card type at the same time.

The entirety of upgrade card types consists of single slot and double slot versions for the upgrade card type upgrades. We know that because we have

and upgrades. They are not 100% equivalent. But both are subsets of A upgrade card type upgrade.

5 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

What do you mean? I'm explicitly saying that they are the same upgrade card type . I'm saying that upgrades are a subset of the upgrade card type upgrade. Another upgrade card type upgrade are upgrades.

Same as the CLT is both a configuration and a modification upgrade card type at the same time.

The entirety of upgrade card types consists of single slot and double slot versions for the upgrade card type upgrades. We know that because we have

and upgrades. They are not 100% equivalent. But both are subsets of A upgrade card type upgrade.

Then I misunderstood that part of your post. Still the only thing that indicates the Weapon Hardpoint ability is for single slot upgrades only is the official app, and they had issues with the "Special" slot in the app at release so it is a coin toss if the current state is intended or the app developers going "Heck with it".

18 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

What do you mean? I'm explicitly saying that they are the same upgrade card type . I'm saying that upgrades are a subset of the upgrade card type upgrade. Another upgrade card type upgrade subset are upgrades.

Same as the CLT is both a configuration and a modification upgrade card type at the same time.

The entirety of upgrade card types consists of single slot and double slot versions for the upgrade card type upgrades. We know that because we have

This post looks like an ammunition dump

8 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

Then I misunderstood that part of your post. Still the only thing that indicates the Weapon Hardpoint ability is for single slot upgrades only is the official app, and they had issues with the "Special" slot in the app at release so it is a coin toss if the current state is intended or the app developers going "Heck with it".

You unironically think that T70s and Scyks were intended to equip Barrage Rockets? You think that's more likely than uncareful language by FFG? Note that the Scyk and T70 do not say "upgrade card type" but only upgrade. That could be a meaningful difference.

What would be the correct, unambiguous way to make sure that only single or both single and double upgrades could be equipped?

For both: "You can equip 1[Cannon], [Cannon][Cannon], [Torpedo], [Missile], or [Missile][Missile] upgrade." or "You can equip 1[Cannon], [Torpedo], [Missile] upgrade card type upgrade."
For only single: "You can equip 1[Cannon], [Torpedo], [Missile] upgrade." works, but is only unambiguous once the other is established. I don't know how they would make it simple and concise.

15 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

What do you mean? I'm explicitly saying that they are the same upgrade card type . I'm saying that upgrades are a subset of the upgrade card type upgrade. Another upgrade card type upgrade subset are upgrades.

Same as the CLT is both a configuration and a modification upgrade card type at the same time.

The entirety of upgrade card types consists of single slot and double slot versions for the upgrade card type upgrades. We know that because we have

and upgrades. They are not 100% equivalent. But both are subsets of A upgrade card type upgrade.

This is a good pair of cards to put next to each other.

What would make this a lot clearer is if Brockets had a requirement box like ESC does. Specifically, a requirement for two missile slots. That would then clearly exclude both the Scyk and the T-70, which technically have neither slot.

As it is, I’d be inclined to say they can equip it. The “type” is Missile. The hardpoint lets them equip a missile without technically adding slots— the slots feel more like an implementation quirk than a direct addressing of the rules state.

3 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

You unironically think that T70s and Scyks were intended to equip Barrage Rockets? You think that's more likely than uncareful language by FFG? Note that the Scyk and T70 do not say "upgrade card type" but only upgrade. That could be a meaningful difference.

I would absolutely grant that FFG may not have intended this. Nor would I wish to jam this down a game group’s throat on league night. But I do think this bears FAQing.

1 minute ago, CoffeeMinion said:

The “type” is Missile. The hardpoint lets them equip a missile without technically adding slots— the slots feel more like an implementation quirk than a direct addressing of the rules state.

So you're saying that FFG meant to write "You can equip 1 [...] upgrade card type upgrade."?

How would you write it so that only single missile slot upgrades of the missile upgrade card type could be equipped?

This seems like an easy argument to fix. Go equip BR on Scyk in any app. Cannot be done. Period.

Now the argument can be continued about Jonas, though I don’t believe it is anywhere a correct argument. Many fine points am have been proven, using the rules and symbology on the card.