The winner of the Brazilian Grand Championship flew 6 Techno Union Bombers with Prox mines and Struts.

https://listfortress.com/tournaments/1396

Has anyone got a stream of his games because... What?... How?

well. that's fantastic.

how did it work? not a video person.

Both the top 4 (against quad vipers) and final (against sear swarm) are straight up jousting

6 Proximity mines is a lot of board control.

37 minutes ago, Cazar said:

Both the top 4 (against quad vipers) and final (against sear swarm) are straight up jousting

Most likely, his opponents thought that was their best strategy? Hyenas aren't super sturdy and they're just rolling single modded 2 dice shots here. Then they fell into the weird reverse doombox when the Hyenas turn away and their momentum carried them into proxtown. The opponent (more or less correctly?) thinks they have a much stronger joust, the Hyenas are happy to oblige because it makes their engagement t+1 round really rough for the opponent, then they all turn away like RZ2s or something and there's an "oh." moment?

It seems like a list that preys on expectations, might not work as well against players who've seen it before. Were there any streamed games vs force aces? That seems like the bad matchup but I didn't see one at a glance.

8 minutes ago, svelok said:

Most likely, his opponents thought that was their best strategy? Hyenas aren't super sturdy and they're just rolling single modded 2 dice shots here. Then they fell into the weird reverse doombox when the Hyenas turn away and their momentum carried them into proxtown. The opponent (more or less correctly?) thinks they have a much stronger joust, the Hyenas are happy to oblige because it makes their engagement t+1 round really rough for the opponent, then they all turn away like RZ2s or something and there's an "oh." moment?

It seems like a list that preys on expectations, might not work as well against players who've seen it before. Were there any streamed games vs force aces? That seems like the bad matchup but I didn't see one at a glance.

And you're going to have a tough time flanking them because of the mines. And they also don't care about the rocks.

For me Hyena behind 6 calculate tokens is pretty sturdy. It will survive against 4 range 2, 3+focus attacks 55% times. (unless you score a good crit)

Relevant

On 12/6/2019 at 10:59 PM, kris40k said:

Relevant

Same association here. Can't help myself, but everytime I hear "Techno Union" it sounds like an alliance of Snap, U96, Capella and the other 89-92 Techno/Eurobeat groups

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As for the actual X-wing topic. This shows again how fantastic wide open the "Meta" actually is right now.

And also when people are not like Lemmings just netcopy or form their list according to what is en vogue on pods, FB and board/forum posts, but instead do their thing and practice.

On ‎12‎/‎6‎/‎2019 at 1:20 PM, Frimmel said:

And you're going to have a tough time flanking them because of the mines. And they also don't care about the rocks.

Indeed. That latter point is important too, because mines work best in a close-packed obstacle field where you can't just shimmy slightly to go around the mines.

I do find myself wanting to try a swarm of TIE/sk with proximity mines for similar reasons; I need Fully Loaded (probably several!) to have enough mine templates, though.

The game is more about flying well than about what you build your list with. Thank goodness.

12 hours ago, Magnus Grendel said:

I do find myself wanting to try a swarm of TIE/sk with proximity mines for similar reasons; I need Fully Loaded (probably several!) to have enough mine templates, though.

Fully Loaded also brings back Cluster Mines AKA massive area denial. Plus Ion Bombs seem likely to be cheap-ish this time around. I'm pretty stoked.

1 hour ago, heychadwick said:

The game is more about flying well than about what you build your list with. Thank goodness.

This >>>>>>>>>>

Add it to the latest in the line of 'really good efficient ships that everyone thinks are bad'.

11 hours ago, ClassicalMoser said:

Fully Loaded also brings back Cluster Mines AKA massive area denial.

True, but it depends on points cost; proximity mines are right on the 6-point limit that strikers can carry one each - I'm not sure if cluster mines will. Besides which, proximity mines may cover less space in a line but triggering one hurts so very much - an individual cluster mine template by comparison was never that bad, it was the fact that they were inevitably pared with *!!~£"~! 1st edition Sabine Wren which made them actually kill things.

9 hours ago, Stay OT Leader said:

Add it to the latest in the line of 'really good efficient ships that everyone thinks are bad'.

Or the examples of "having a plan on how to use a squad and practicing with it a lot >>>>>>> picking a 'viable' netlist squad"

11 minutes ago, Magnus Grendel said:

True, but it depends on points cost; proximity mines are right on the 6-point limit that strikers can carry one each - I'm not sure if cluster mines will.

The Fully Loaded pack seems to come with just one set of Cluster Mines, so I would expect the upgrade card has just one charge. As Proxy Mines are 6 points for two charges, I can see Cluster Mines being a bit cheaper.

(On Planetary Sentinels there may be room for Skilled Bombardier or Delayed Fuses.)

A good point. Conner nets are kind of the same - I've got the upgrade cards but not the tokens (I have 1st edition strikers and a conversion kit rather than expansion packs).

10 hours ago, Magnus Grendel said:

Or the examples of "having a plan on how to use a squad and practicing with it a lot >>>>>>> picking a 'viable' netlist squad"

But also, pertinent to... https://stayontheleader.blogspot.com/2019/12/rule-32-enjoy-little-things.html

18 hours ago, Magnus Grendel said:

Or the examples of "having a plan on how to use a squad and practicing with it a lot >>>>>>> picking a 'viable' netlist squad"

I'll do you one better: having a plan on how to use a squad and practicing with it a lot + picking a viable squad

5 hours ago, gadwag said:

I'll do you one better: having a plan on how to use a squad and practicing with it a lot + picking a viable squad

Completely agree. But don't underestimate what can be viable, especially since one element of 'viable' people often overlook is "opponents haven't practiced against it and don't have a canned strategy for how to beat it".

1 hour ago, Magnus Grendel said:

Completely agree. But don't underestimate what can be viable, especially since one element of 'viable' people often overlook is "opponents haven't practiced against it and don't have a canned strategy for how to beat it".

For sure. In this case it was the perfect storm - a very efficient ship and one that no one expected. Ironically, everyone was probably expecting the inquisition instead

The value of being a bit off meta helps keep your opponents on their toes, but if you stray too far your opponent can just ignore your dumb tricks, shove you to the ground, and take your lunch money. Keeping in mind the difference between meta, off meta, and non viable is key, and a lot of "meta slaves" in other game communities (like fighters) don't understand the difference between non meta and not viable.

I am not surprised a Union Bomber list could work, as someone who mostly plays rebel I (sadly, I think it makes the game less interesting when generic pilots on mostly naked are too strong) get that in many cases raw stats to points ratios are king. The bomber has 5 health, 2 agility, and potent modding on a 26 point chasis so even if its dial was pure trash and it didn't have viable upgrade options it still is a sidegrade to the Headhunter even at 3 points more, and the Headhunter has an arguably worse dial and networked is stronger than focus!

Prox mines also are rather strong, being able to force 1.5 damage onto an Ace or pseudo ace is a big deal, and the meta is ace heavy. Unresited damage is really strong in X-wing and the prox mine may not force it as well as a crack shot but it will get if your opponent tries to do the age old trick of sticking at a range of 1 behind ya to always get a shot.

So you have a swarm with 30 combined health hid behind the exact right amount of defensive focus and 2 green dice that outputs 12 red dice at range 2 that always can be optimally modded, plus the benefit that sticking to your rear will force through a damage.

...That remind you of anything? It is a swarm of beef! But they also are really hard to come in from behind on (Mines) or the sides (1 hard white turns) or trap on terrain (struts!). I am sure the list has issues, like intense alpha strikes from ships that may not care about 1 forced damage or mass bumping from a large, but the core idea makes sense where say... a list of nothing but naked K wings doesn't.

So its janky and off meta, but it isn't a case of 'this proves you can fly whatever' as much as 'awareness of ship efficiency is very important.' If you tried this beef swarm with Y wings you would probably be flattened because the ship just isn't as efficient with focuses and its far easier to trail them and keep them stressed.

Being a meta slave is bad, real bad. Better to run your own theorycraft, or at least double check the math!

1 hour ago, dezzmont said:

So its janky and off meta, but it isn't a case of 'this proves you can fly whatever' as much as 'awareness of ship efficiency is very important.' If you tried this beef swarm with Y wings you would probably be flattened because the ship just isn't as efficient with focuses and its far easier to trail them and keep them stressed.

I'm a believer in "you can make a viable squad with pretty much any ship" is not the same as "fly whatever you want" - you can say "I want to fly a G-1A squad", but then you'd have to do some careful thinking about how, and build said squad intelligently if you want it to work.

1 hour ago, dezzmont said:

sadly, I think it makes the game less interesting when generic pilots on mostly naked are too strong

I don't mind generic squads, but I know what you mean; if you're literally just fielding non-limited pilot 'x' with no upgrades times 8. I tend to have 5 identical ships, but not 'clean' ones, which is not quite the same thing.

It helps if that squad is mathematically super-cheap for what you get though, right?

Similarly, I'm looking at 4x Proxy Scimitar & Grand Inqy and going... "hmmmm!"