Hi.

What happens if Tuur as wing leader performs his boost or roll action after his attack ?
What happens to his wingmates ?

Thanks.

If any ship's base changes position (including rotating) outside of activation, that ship leaves the wing. If the wing leader leaves the wing, the entire wing splits. However, the wing can re-form at the end of the end phase/beginning of the planning phase.

EDIT - rulebook: https://images-cdn.fantasyflightgames.com/filer_public/fe/94/fe94b2c9-a4f0-4c7e-b028-d07ddda114ed/01_swzepicrulesreference_v106.pdf

Agree with @Maui. 's assessment. Epic Battles Rules Reference (1.0.6) p4.

Edit: Lyianx made a good point about the specific wording of this rule. I would still play it the way Maui suggests because I believe that is the intent, but I cannot back it up with written rules at this time.

Ok so, regular action after moving is part of the activation phase, while Turr's extra action is not. That's it ?

But rule is "An effect other than a maneuver instructs the ship to move or rotate its base." The wording isn't "outside of activation"...

2 hours ago, Maui. said:

If any ship's base changes position (including rotating) outside of activation, that ship leaves the wing. If the wing leader leaves the wing, the entire wing splits. However, the wing can re-form at the end of the end phase/beginning of the planning phase.

EDIT - rulebook: https://images-cdn.fantasyflightgames.com/filer_public/fe/94/fe94b2c9-a4f0-4c7e-b028-d07ddda114ed/01_swzepicrulesreference_v106.pdf

I hate to be the devils advocate here, but its not "any ship". The section you are referring to specifically says...

A wingmate must split from its wing after any of the following occur:

* An effect other than a maneuver instructs the ship [referring to the wingmate ship] to move or rotate its base.

Nothing is actually mentioned if the wingleader does this and there doesnt seem to be any contingency to prevent Turr from boosting, and then later having his wingmates follow during the next activation.

So, it seems to me, that if Turr engages, then Boosts, during his next activation, his wingmates would just follow him. Seems like something FFG may need to address in the future but, as written now, i dont see this not working.

32 minutes ago, Lyianx said:

I hate to be the devils advocate here, but its not "any ship". The section you are referring to specifically says...

That is an excellent point! The rules do not state that a Wing leader is a special type of Wingmate , the leader is its own type with its own quirks. It is interesting that a Wingmate is forced to split when "• The ship[Wingmate] becomes ionized or tractored." And when "• An effect other than a maneuver instructs the ship[Wingmate] to move or rotate its base." But the Wing Leader only splits when "• The wing leader becomes ionized or tractored."

I would say this is a clear oversight to not include that second condition of Wingmate split by non-maneuver movement for the wing leader as well since a tractor can move either one and physically remove it from the formation block. I have no idea why they felt the need to clarify that movement of a Wingmate out of its formation/facing splits it off, but then the writers forgot that was a thing when they were writing for the wing leader 30 seconds later.

The terrible irony here is that a ship can be tractored without being moved so its formation is physically intact but for game mechanic purposes they immediately are split.

Of course at the end of the end phase they can all jump back together by joining the Wing leader again and snapping into place whether the wing leader was moved or not by the tractored condition.

1 hour ago, Nosoul said:

Ok so, regular action after moving is part of the activation phase, while Turr's extra action is not. That's it ?

But rule is "An effect other than a maneuver instructs the ship to move or rotate its base." The wording isn't "outside of activation"...

To clarify: the in activation non-maneuver movements are covered by the rules on p5 under Activation Phase :

" Wing Leader : During the Activation Phase, a wing leader activates as normal according to its initiative value.
Wingmates : After a wing leader has activated, each of its wingmates activates... "

So Wingmates snap into place after the Wing Leader's complete activation, including a potential boost or barrel roll.

@Lyianx did raise the valid point that the "effect other than a maneuver" rule explicitly refers to Wingmates and not the Wing Leader which actually does leave the op question in limbo:

5 hours ago, Nosoul said:

What happens if Tuur as wing leader performs his boost or roll action after his attack ?

Reference!

Another edge case besides Turr/Valen that should split a wing but is not spelled out: What happens if a huge ship overlaps the Wing Leader and displaces them without overlapping some or all of the remainder of the wing?

Similar to Turr's situation, the rules do cover this forced non-maneuver/non-tractor movement for Wingmates but do not for the Wing Leader. Unlike Turr's little boost though this relocation is going to cover a significant distance and could provide a massive positional advantage (assuming the wing leader survives). For example: if a wing of 6 B-wings gets their leader clipped off by a huge ship the leader is moved to the back and likely ends up facing away from the huge, then for the next activation they do a k-turn and are well positioned behind the huge and any other B-wings that were not forced to split now relocate to form up on the leader! What should have disrupted the formation and lined up additional victims has instead allowed all the surviving Wingmates to both escape being pinned in front of a huge as well as gaining an ideal position in said huge ship's blind spot!

My point here is that I think there was an oversight in the rules to not include that line for splitting the wing leader. Even if it's not an oversight it is grossly unthematic and a game-breaking bad mechanics to run it this way.

In the case of Turr or similar small reposition outside of activation it makes little difference for positioning if the rest of the wing splits with the option to rejoin at the end of phase vs. they are technically still joined and will automatically reposition as such during the next activation. For consistency I would use something like Maui's interpretation to split when moving the leader outside activation.

I guess a similar question is, can a wing survive its wing leader's destruction? If the Wing Leader goes down, there's no single dial assigned to lead the squad, so the wing would (by necessity) dissolve. A Wing cannot maintain cohesion without its leader.

I think that basically addresses the "wing leader displaced" question... since the Leader loses cohesion with its wingmates, it splits from the wing, and due to its absence, the wing is subsequently disbanded.

Here's the question I submitted to the official rules questions page (found here: https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/contact/rules/ )

What happens if a wing leader is moved out of formation? For example if Turr Phennir as a Wing Leader uses his ability to boost out of formation does his wing split? For another example if the Wing Leader is overlapped by a huge ship and is moved to the full rear arc of that huge ship does that force their wing to split?

17 minutes ago, emeraldbeacon said:

I guess a similar question is, can a wing survive its wing leader's destruction?

This actually is covered under Forced Splitting on p4:

"...A wingmate must split from its wing after any of the following occur:

...

• The wing leader is removed."

To expand on that, the rules go on to say that if a ship is forced to split from its wing after Planning phase and before Engagement phase it might not have a dial. If a ship does not have a dial it waits until the end of activation when it performs a 2 straight maneuver, skips its perform action step, and receive a stress. (p.4 under Forced Splitting)

5 minutes ago, emeraldbeacon said:

I guess a similar question is, can a wing survive its wing leader's destruction? If the Wing Leader goes down, there's no single dial assigned to lead the squad, so the wing would (by necessity) dissolve. A Wing cannot maintain cohesion without its leader

That is actually covered under Forced splitting.

* The wing leader is removed.

When the wing leader is destroyed, its removed from game, triggering the Forced Splitting of each wingmate. and if this was before engagment phase, then..

Quote

Due to forced splitting that occurs after the Planning Phase and before the Engagement Phase, it is possible that a ship might not have a maneuver dial assigned to it for the Activation Phase. If a split ship does not have a dial assigned in the Activation Phase, it does not activate as normal. Instead, at the end of the Activation Phase, it must execute a [2 󲁞] maneuver, skip its Perform Action step, and gain one stress token.

1 hour ago, nitrobenz said:

The terrible irony here is that a ship can be tractored without being moved so its formation is physically intact but for game mechanic purposes they immediately are split.

This, thematically actually makes sense. Even if you dont move them with a boost/barrel roll, it means you are tractoring them by 'holding them in place' (thus the reduced agility). This is actually how the tractorbeam worked in Tie Fighter. You engaged it, and the target ship simply couldn't maneuver. You were holding it in place.

To expand on that, the rules go on to say that if a ship is forced to split from its wing after Planning phase and before Engagement phase it might not have a dial. If a ship does not have a dial it waits until the end of activation when it performs a 2 straight maneuver, skips its perform action step, and receive a stress. (p.4 under Forced Splitting )

20 minutes ago, nitrobenz said:

What happens if a huge ship overlaps the Wing Leader and displaces them without overlapping some or all of the remainder of the wing?

That would be incredibly difficult, to maneuver a huge ship in such a way, that it Only contacts the wingleader. Only doesnt hit all of them. But your right. This just adds to my thought that FFG probably didnt intend for the wing to stay in place after the leader is moved post activation phase.

Maybe if they added something like this..

Quote

An effect instructs the ship or Wing Leader to move or rotate its base outside of its activation.

2 minutes ago, Lyianx said:

This, thematically actually makes sense. Even if you dont move them with a boost/barrel roll, it means you are tractoring them by 'holding them in place' (thus the reduced agility). This is actually how the tractorbeam worked in Tie Fighter. You engaged it, and the target ship simply couldn't maneuver. You were holding it in place.

The irony though is that this 'hold in place' split for the Wing Leader is covered by the rules, but the Wing Leader getting run over by a cruiser (thematically the formation would be forced to scatter) is not covered even though Wingmates getting run over is covered.

1 minute ago, nitrobenz said:

The irony though is that this 'hold in place' split for the Wing Leader is covered by the rules, but the Wing Leader getting run over by a cruiser (thematically the formation would be forced to scatter) is not covered even though Wingmates getting run over is covered.

I wont be too hard on FFG for this oversight personally. Wings/Formations is something we've all wanted and they had to figure out from scratch. I knew there would be growing pains even after it released. Even if/when this gets resolved, and more people play with it, we will find more "why was this clearly not addressed" issues we just are not seeing now.

3 minutes ago, Lyianx said:

That would be incredibly difficult, to maneuver a huge ship in such a way, that it Only contacts the wingleader. Only doesnt hit all of them. But your right. This just adds to my thought that FFG probably didnt intend for the wing to stay in place after the leader is moved post activation phase.

I did say it would be an edge case, but it doesn't have to be only the leader, it could be the front row of a wing of 6, the question is still relevant for the back 3.

4 minutes ago, Lyianx said:

Maybe if they added something like this..

Quote

An effect instructs the ship or Wing Leader to move or rotate its base outside of its activation.

Yeah, something like that would be perfect.