N0-1_H3r3 said:

To be fair, I'm not entirely sure there's a difference between "action movie hero" and the Space Marines in the novels and fluff

Azraiel said >>>

The God-Emperor of Mankind.

Irrelevant unless you take mythology as fact. For many in the Imperium that's a reasonable stance, just less so when considering Marines as a discrete entity. If you don't see the difference? Then that's kind of a point in and of itself.

Azraiell said >>>

...and cut Games Workshop's profits noticably.

Not something that I worry about. GW could go into receivership this day and it would not truly have an impact upon my life or my creative endeavours.

Azraiel said >>>

That they are no longer members of the species, capable of feeling human emotions and thinking in human terms? Don't be silly.

On the other hand, you might consider a psychological underpinning. Think about it. This is why there is contention about interpretation of Space Marines in an RPG. Can anyone thing of humans that just aren't human any more, at least by the common definition?

MILLANDSON said >>>

So yea, given that's how tough GW believe the SMs should be, the normal tabletop rules should probably be ignored in terms of "what to expect out of Deathwatch", and a LOT more emphasis put on the fluff and novels.

The problem has never been whether there are "movie Marines," just whether any of the other races get into the action of being "movie," or whether it is restricted to Marines because they're a teenage masurbatory fantasy?

N0-1_H3r3 said >>>

As far as I was aware, they were always depicted as a deliberately exaggerated 'action movie hero' style rules... the truth of the Astartes is likely somewhere between the two...

And here, maybe, the idea is that there is some distinction between style and preference that might come into play?

Kage

ItsUncertainWho said:

Humans with demigod implants? (assuming the Emperor can be classed as a god (like Zeus) and the Primarchs as demigods (or even lesser gods))

Philip

MILLANDSON said:

That was one GW writer's interpretation, and to be honest I think it's utterly idiotic. The lore is completely lacking in consistency on this topic, so trying to represent it on the tabletop is a rather hopeless endeavor.

MILLANDSON said:

Movie Marines were released in the Australian, UK and American editions of white dwarf, I should know since I have my copy sitting in my room... somewhere >.<

ItsUncertainWho said >>>

They are stronger, faster, and tougher than any natural human could ever hope to be.

They are augmented. It's interesting to note, however, that Shrine Assassins get a lot more out of their "human" physiology than the augmented Space Marine does with their uberness (arguably). Are Assassin's demigods by your definition? Eldar?

With how much surgery and augmentation that goes into creating and training a Shrine Assassin they're less human than the Space Marines could ever be, just because they're more human looking doesn't mean that they are anymore. They're really just bio-weapons now, human shaped bio-weapons, organic killing machines like the marines, but far, far more refined

In my view Temple Assassins are no longer human at all. They were not part of the original topic due to the fact that they are not space marines and have no ties to the Emperor.

Xenos are xenos. Since they are not human and their unnatural physiology was not being brought into question they were not part of the original question.

I do have to say I am surprised by the amount of people who seem to fall into the Space Marines are just big dudes in power armor camp.

ItsUncertainWho said:

Why? Because they are missing the "obvious point," or something else?

Kage

I was merely making an observation Kage, not trying to incite snarky responses.

The original question of the thread was to get varying opinions on how people view the Astartes. I was just sharing my surprise at how differently others on these boards see them. I never looked at space marines as being as human as many people see them. My views seem to be somewhat in the minority on these forums but are in the majority in my local group. I find it interesting.

@ ItsUncertainWho - there seems to be as many interpretations of Space Marines as 40K fans!

I fall into the (as I mention before) humans will god or demi-god implants. Quite a literal interpretation I think, but many disagree. Though this disagreement could be more because I push it the t extreme: I think the Emperor is 'Zeus' , I have some radical ideas on Space Marines and their gear , and my ideas on the humble Bolter is not canon, or depleted deuterium . All back up with my musings on the Adeptus Mechanicus and my explanations of Imperial technology .

I think all fans should share their views; so that we can all take what they like for our games.

I don't think there is really a definitive view of the marines (mind you I'm still stuck in the Rogue Trader era )

Philip

Philip S said:

Not until Deathwatch is released, at least

ItsUncertainWho said >>>

I was merely making an observation Kage, not trying to incite snarky responses.

My apologies. It just seemed yet another post along the lines of, "People don't see it the way that I do? God, you just don't get the 40k universe."

MILLANDSON said >>>

Not until Deathwatch is released, at least

No, not even then.

Kage

Kage2020 said:

Nor mine, it was, and is, just a statement of fact. Money is the root of all evil, so goes the saying, and it's also one of the reasons why Marine minatures arn't quite to the scale GW lore suggest they should be (though I did see a very talented moddler's upsized Tac Marine project, using terminator bits to beef up his minis, very impressive work). Re-releasing the entire line and publishing new rules is a massive financial undertaking, one that in this case would result in fewer indivuidual purchases per Marine player. Spending money to make less money than you are right now. I'm no financial expert, but re-releasing Marines as a smaller, more canon-friendly army on the tabletop dosen't sound like something GW would be doing any time soon. Space Marines are their most widely played army, after all. =P

Kage2020 said:

This seems to stem from the occasional portrayl of Astartes as inhuman by some authors, and the tendancy towards player and writer fanboyism towards non-codex chapters which often have extreme behavioural abnormalities as the norm. Some people argue that the hypno-doctrination also brainwashes an initiate, one way or another I fully expect this is the case with some of the extremist chapters and the Traitor Legions, but the closest thing to a "canon" description of the 19 implants (published in White Dwarf) strongly suggests the purpose of hypno-doctrination is to instruct the initiates in the subconcious use of any completely new abilities imparted by their modifications, such as proper use of the Betcher's Gland.

The majority of Chapters exhibit uniformally stable, healthy and essentially unaltered psychologies amongst their battle brothers. Some chapters commonly exhibit extreme mental traits probably derived from their Primarch or a defect in their chapter's Gene-seed, and others are positively psychotic. So you could rightly say that some Chapters consist of mentally unbalanced soldiers, or are even monsters, while others are quintessentially human and hold fast to their humanity throught their (potentially) long lives of service.

Ultimately, weather or not a Marine is still a man or just a pet monster depends on who you're asking, on what that individual's opinion of what makes an essential "human" trait, and what the lacking of said traits may entail. The Traitor Marines are a prime example of the danger in forsaking one's humanity i nthe stting, and proof that a Marine can truly become a monster just as any of us could, but I'm by no means convinced that a loyaist Marine is a monster, or a thing, or anything but a gentically enhanced man, a soldier with a vastly superior body matched by peerless mental and physical training, the result is a superior warrior with his human mind and soul intact.

And they shall know no fear. Is just a saying after all, they arn't fearless automatons, they're courageous (some might say suicidally so) heroes of the Imperium.

Azraiel said:

Until, obviously, FFG can't make any more games/supplements, and they have to stop printing/selling what games/supplements they have released.

I have no want for GW to die, they've created one of my favourite settings ever. Plus, other than one spat with Dark Reign, they've never done anything bad to me.

This is one of the scenarios in which I love to have my cake and eat it too.

Are there chapters I feel are inhuman cold blooded psycopathic killing machines bereft of weak emotions.

Yes there are chapters that fit this description.

Are there chapters that represent the Quintessential human, filled with human emotions but trained to give that ultimate sacrifice of connection with the rest of humanity in order to serve and save it?

Yes there are chapters that fit this description.

Are there chapters that pick inhuman monsters, scummers, psychopathic killers and then augment them and turn them loose with controls in place to control the monster, ala first ed Marines?

Not as much anymore, but it is not unheard of. And the Traitor Legions are likely to think along these lines in some cases. But yes there are Chapters that fit this description.

Why limit yourself to one style of Marine? Why close your world view of 40k to one paradigm of thought? The Universe is vast. The Primarchs were vast and a Thousand Chapters of a Thousand Men leaves one hell of a wide berth for variety.

Alexis

*smiles*

Edit- As an aside. My thought process on the other issue in the thread.

On the "Demi-God" question. We can take a couple things as fact before we analyze what they may or may not be to the average Imperialite. One, to the people of the 40k Universe, the Imperial Doctrine is "proven" by the presence of the Emperor, The Golden Throne and Astronomicon, as well as abilities like "Pure Faith". Two, the Primarchs were "elevated" by him, using his "power", his "seed". Three, regardless of how we view them, the majority of us can agree they have become something "more than" human; putting aside the personal differences of whether they are man made monster or post human, or quintessentially more than human humans.

Using these three things I would say the following to the Scientific minded; who are so few as to be non existent thanks to the Cult Mechanicus; they would be creations, scientific enhancements of humans utilizing advanced technology.

To the average Imperial, the Devout, or the scientifically uninitiated; they would be Demi Gods. At least I agree with those that see them that way.

Now as to what people see the Emperor as; whether it be Deity, dead man in a chair, Star Child, or otherwise, is not for me to decide, I am only pointing out that to the "people" of 40k the truth matters not.

They see The Emperor as their god, and they, the Astartes, his Sons; elevated by his own seed. To me that reeks of the people seeing them as Demi-Gods, or Angels as some have suggested.

Azraiel said >>>

The majority of Chapters exhibit uniformally stable, healthy and essentially unaltered psychologies amongst their battle brothers.Some chapters commonly exhibit extreme mental traits probably derived from their Primarch or a defect in their chapter's Gene-seed, and others are positively psychotic. So you could rightly say that some Chapters consist of mentally unbalanced soldiers, or are even monsters, while others are quintessentially human and hold fast to their humanity throught their (potentially) long lives of service.

I always find that while it is, for me, a given that there is going to be variability in the psychology of Marines, I find the idea that they are just normal, well-adjusted humans with extra organs, etc. When they go through the training routine on the level often described, coupled with psychological indoctrination, programming, and so forth? I just find it easier to believe that "monster" is the norm and that it is in the exceptional cases that they touch upon their "ghost in the machine" that is their humanity. That these are PCs is, again for me, a believable conceit.

The effect is ultimately the same when it comes to RPing Marines in Deathwatch , at least for me, but allows the grim side. Who knows, thoughinterpretation is a work in progress.

MILLANDSON said >>>

Until, obviously, FFG can't make any more games/supplements, and they have to stop printing/selling what games/supplements they have released.

I have no want for GW to die, they've created one of my favourite settings ever. Plus, other than one spat with Dark Reign, they've never done anything bad to me.

Wrong quote there, MILLANDSON. I merely pointed out that they could go into immediate receivership and it wouldn't make too much of a difference on the hobby perspective. (I wouldn't want it to happen because it pays the wages of a lot of employees...)

Cailieg said >>>

Why limit yourself to one style of Marine?

Alternately, why do you need Marines to fulfill every single part of the story?

Cailieg said >>>

We can take a couple things as fact before we analyze what they may or may not be to the average Imperialit e.

The original question didn't come up with respect to the perspective of the in-universe interpretations of the Emperor. The issue was whether in-universe interpretation defined, well, everything. Just because someone interprets something in one way doesn't actually make it that way. Should you then alter heaven and earth to make it that way?

Kage

Kage, I respect you as a poster, but have long since figured out that we see things very differently in game.

And that is fine. But as to why I choose to have Space Marines of different milieus, because such is the way I see things being in the 40k Universe. I see the Universe as a vast and wide place, and I see the idea of limiting the Marines to one "type" to be too limiting for me.

I see things having evolved over the millenia to allow for a variance among these gods among men that gives me the freedom to fill out each chapter, each encounter, the way I wish, unrestrained by preconceived notions.

Alexis

*smiles*

Cailieg said >>>

...because such is the way I see things being in the 40k Universe...

Oh, don't get me wrong. One of the common glitches in the 40k hobbyist community is the idea that because people see things differently that this is a point of antagonism. I don't see it that way. For me it's merely a case of going, "Oh cool, you do it that way. That's not for me, but it's cool nonetheless."

In this case, as elsewhere, I like to see it up a core "framework of interpretation" to which I can take exception to, rather than treat everything as exceptional. Thus, I see Marines as more similar than not, with the variance serving as a point of narrative exceptionalism.

It's all good, though, and it's good for fans to share their interpretations. Well, at least in my mind. Recognising that there is this point of diversion is, for me, a wonderful thing. The nerd-rage is limited that way.

Cailieg said >>>

I see the Universe as a vast and wide place, and I see the idea of limiting the Marines to one "type" to be too limiting for me.

I personally don't have one "type" of Space Marine, just ones cast from a similar mold.

Kage

With Rogue Trader, the power level from Dark Heresy went up a bit (although not as much as one would expect from the text). It seems fairly obvious that Deathwatch will ramp it up further. Which is appropriate: I like the fluff, and with (traditional) RPGs there is little need for game balance. However, I also have some doubts; with great abilities comes great responsibilites, and it is surprising how much is required from a gaming group not to start abusing that sort of power. Of course, my viewpoint is biased: I know my players well enough to know that it'll take a bit of work to get them realise that they are not over-cybered, nearly invincible thugs with a mandate to be a-holes in the name of the Emperor.

I fully expect the Astartes to be nasty bastards. Even Initiates should be tougher than an experienced Guardsman, and full Brothers should be able to shrug off all kinds of punishment. What slightly troubles me is what stomping around in Mark VIII 24/7 does for intrigue and investigation... Feels a bit like a Hollywood celebrity trying to be a private detective (I seem to remember that the Marines don't - can't - take the armour off at all).

Going to buy the book, no matter what.

Sandepande said:

Forgive me if I'm mistaken, but it is my understanding that SM's can indeed take off their armor ... well, except for the Thousand Sons Rubric (sp?) Marines. It is the Black Carapace that can not be removed, as it is implanted under the skin.

Sister Cat said:

Forgive me if I'm mistaken, but it is my understanding that SM's can indeed take off their armor ... well, except for the Thousand Sons Rubric (sp?) Marines. It is the Black Carapace that can not be removed, as it is implanted under the skin.

You are forgiven: it was indeed the Black Carapace, but you know, the word "carapace", easy to confuse with armour and stuff, move along now, nothing to see here.

This would be splendid, then. More to do than to wave your boltgun around and kill things (nothing wrong with it, but there can be too much of a good thing). Vulnerability (from small-scale threats like only a dozen armed cultists) makes for more interesting games.

Well, I haven't played any version of WH40k since 2nd edition and haven't read any of the Space Marine novels or much of the fluff written since about 1995 so I my own take on Space Marines might be a bit out of touch with current canon. For my two cents though, I see them as a kind of rapid reactionary elite force of troops who - through a combination of augmentation, superior training, better equipment and fanatical (not to mention religious) devotion to duty - are inherently more effective than the more conventional Imperial Guard at killing threats to the Imperium. Because they are a smaller and more mobile force than a Guard army, a chapter of marines is a lot more suited to making surgical strikes and lightning raids behind enemy lines than they would be - and their command structure is more fluid and able to react quicker to changes in the field.

In Dark Heresy I included a squad of tactical marines who acted much as a squad of special forces soldiers would today in storming a building full of heretics. Basically, they cut the power, breached the doors, threw in photon flash grenades and proceeded to slaughter a load of cultists with close quarter bolter fire and chainswords. I get the idea that a lot of people's idea of Space Marines is that they don't really need to use such tactics as they can slay their enemies by just being made of awesomeness. For me though, they are tough, but not so tough that they can just wade out across the battlefield and shrug off hails of fire...

Demi-gods in the Greek sense, larger than life heroes taking on challenges and foes that a mere human cannot hope to overcome. Just like Herakles and Siegfried, they are still mortal and can be overcome, but they are more than a match for a mortal man. Their arms and armour are superior to that of ordinary men as are the foes they can expect to overcome, but even their abilities are not limitless. They are beings who will not shirk from the greatest of challenges and foes. They are dragon slayers and giant killers and they shall know no fear.

As for table top rules, they've stated since the very beginning and done so over and over again that table top rules bend the universe in favor of playability. Really, just comparing the movement and weapon ranges should tell anyone that table top should be taken with a handful of salt.

Hi all just gonna throw my two pennies into the pot, to me the marines are a mix of several things firstly they are like Samuri they are duty driven, secondly they are crusaders aka religious people who can be extremly ruthless in getting the job done add to this mix a dash of sci-fi magic aka cool gear and the augumantaion stir in with a large doze of modern military mission peramiters then hey presto you have your self one nice cake aka space marine. Thus they still have there humanity in most cases but are conditioned to see things from a diffrent view point.

Lastly this would mean that Deathwatch and grey knights are like the special forces of the marine's like the storm trooper is to the imp guard a little diffrent trained (or in the grey knights case a lot)

though this is my own stand on such matters i have enjoyed seeing the other views and may unashamedly steal from some of them.

I want to throw my two cents in on the emotions peice. The SM are in a litteral sense supped up Rangers or SEALs, that doesnt make them psychotic serial killers take no plaesure in being human and all the pleasure in spliting someones body cavity open with a boltgun! On the contrary, there are many instances in the novels and fluff peices that show they are VERY much emotionally human. If they didn't then the Oldest Dreadnought pilot from the Space Wolves (I can't remember the Battle Brothers name, forgive me) wouldn't speak with such melancholy when he descirbes the day he watched Russ abandon him now would he? The SMs are still human and they cant take that out of them.